Poll: Archers Vs Slingers

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Thread: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

  1. #1
    Member Member N0V0NEU's Avatar
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    Smile ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    According to my experiences, slingers are the most effective missile units in the game, though they are extremely cheap (300-600 Mnarii and easily recruitable (you just need a simple drillground in a ridiculously small village). They are effective against armor, which means they can easily destroy and weaken legionaries, phalanxes and elite units.
    Militia don't even stand a chance against them (once the enemy attacked one of my settlements with an army of 1200, mostly levies, I had about 2-3 squads of slingers and some militia units, the slingers have killed about 600-700, which was more than the half of the enemy's army)

    However, from my experience, archers are only good against cheap and poorly equipped units, they are completely useless against heavy, elite and armored units. Still, they are lot more expensive than slingers (600-1600 Mnai(!)) and you need large settlements and costly barracks to produce them. (One of my best memories is when 5 units of Syrian Archers were shooting at 1 unit of Pezhetarioi (hellenic phalanx) and they were only able to kill 4 or 6 of them )

    So, as I see:
    Slingers:
    - Extremely cheap
    - Easily recruitable
    - Effective against armor/heavy/elite units
    - Highly mobile

    Archers:
    - Relatively cheap
    - Highly mobile
    - Useless against armor/heavy/elite units

    What do you think?
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  2. #2
    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    there must be self restraint in the useage of the powerful slinger, however. they weren't super plentiful in ancient armies due to the amount of skill necessary to become an effective slinger
    Last edited by fomalhaut; 04-23-2011 at 18:29.

  3. #3
    Member Member A_Dane's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    They really aint that useful against elites, unless they got quite a bit of chevrons.

    I've also found, that archers do better against light-medium armored troups for some reason.

    Also, archers are capable of fireing above your soldiers lines, slingers can't.
    Using slingers requires you to have quite a cavalry force, so you can cover them while you flank the enemy. (atleast that's the case when I'm fighting the blasted seleucids -.-)
    there are clear pros and cons to both, and some of the more costly archers are actually quite effective :)

  4. #4
    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    not necessarily, any decently armored enemy will laugh at your arrows. he is totally right about Syrian archers arrows bouncing off elite enemies, essentially

  5. #5
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    It's fairly well known that slingers are overpowered as there were no projectile changes to compensate for slingers' ap ability.
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    Member Member Vaginacles's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    well you need archers to kill off the slingers

  7. #7
    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    that's what light cav is for :-)

  8. #8
    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    archers are better in walls

    archers can be safe behinde a line and don´t continously kill off your infantry while failling to shoot at the enemy

    archers shooting time is slower then slingers

    an archer is easyer to train and if you use many they don´t even need that much training while every slinger needs to be extremly good to be efective thats why we got many kind of archers in the game syrians horse archers kretikoi bosphorians sataroas and so forth and so forth while slingers we have the basic model for everyone and then balearic because they used large stones and rhodians because alexander used them against horse archers

    if the game will come with recruitment pools it will be very instersting since the amoung of recruitable slingers will probably be 1/4 of archers (except in hispania where there was no archers)

    as for archers being inefective against heavily armoured their job was to take out skirmishers and harass light infantry and light cavalry to forçe them to act and thanks to proper archers it meant you could use your skirmishers against heavy infantry instead of other skirmishers

    but if you wanna go around killing peztharoi with archers shoot them in the back

  9. #9

    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    It depends on the target, i can have one hellenic archer shooting all day at a Pandotapoi without killing more then 30 men, the archer kills about 60...

    Summary:

    Archers are better at soft targets

    slingers are best at hard targets, unless they fire stones, then they are in between...
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    That's "Chopper" to you, bub. Member DaciaJC's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Usually I have AP troops (Drapanai or others) to take care of elites or armored heavies. I need projectiles for "soft-skinned" targets, and for that, I've found archers to generally be more effective than slingers. Plus, they can hold their own better against light cavalry or infantry with their spears or swords.
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  11. #11
    Member Member A_Dane's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    not necessarily, any decently armored enemy will laugh at your arrows. he is totally right about Syrian archers arrows bouncing off elite enemies, essentially
    Most elites will laugh at your inexperienced slingers as well.

    Don't get me wrong, I love slingers, but they serve a very specific purpose on the battlefield, where archers just have more overall use :)

  12. #12
    Vir Militaris Member
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Unless the people they're shooting at are unarmoured, (foot) archers are frankly useless. I have a unit of them for historical accuracy/feasibility, not because I think they're any good. For the same reason, I only ever have one unit of slingers, they're effective but too many of them is credibility-straining.
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  13. #13
    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    2 units of Syrians or Bosporans will usually counter light skirmishers, panda's, and slingers. Plus all in all archers look cooler than slingers save for the Rhodians. archers also devestate light cav while slingers devestate heavy cav

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    Xsaçapāvan é Skudra Member Atraphoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Option 3:
    Horse archers

    Slingers are good chep bas...s who can dare to kill valuable elites.

    Archers are nemesis of lightly armoured targets and a must in early game before AI begins Elite spams.

    Horse archers are rulers of field battles if you know how to use them / no fire at will and cataphract support against elites and most important one never fire elites from front.

    In summary, archers kills slingers, slingers kills elites, elites kills all,

    rock scissors, paper .....

    so use both...
    Last edited by Atraphoenix; 04-24-2011 at 03:57.



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  15. #15
    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    just reading what you were writing i know you were the 'pahlava guy'. you can take on full stacks of ANYTHING with just some Parni Nobles and an FM D:

  16. #16
    Member Member Ksifos's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    They both have their uses but I prefer slingers because of the AP trait.Slingers are of maximum value, compared to their recruit cost and upkeep.

    Archers main use is against light infantry /cavalry and maybe an ignorant general letting his peltasts advance in a tight formation.
    Archer vs slingers (or other missile unit)= ineffective in terms of hit ratio/ volleys, because of loose formation.

    Slingers are good against heavily armored units but not when shooting on their front.Best employed when shooting at the back of a unit, or at their right (since they carry a shield on their left hand and is ineffective).To get the maximum effect position them at your left flank, that way they get a better shot at the unprotected right of the enemy.

    *The same goes for archers but they generally produce lower kill scores against armored infantry.

    Horse archers is different story.While the AI has big difficulties handling them, an experienced human should have some archers and light cavalry available so that he puts them on the run and finally out of the battle.I don't believe spamming horse archers is a viable tactic against a strong army.Your damage unless done to their back will produce minimal kills, your arrows will deplete and then you are an easy prey.

    Heavy horse archers are bigger problem since they pose a "charge threat", but not unresolved.The heavy armour makes them slower and also to tire easier.If left on skirmish automatically and not micromanaged you can tire them with moves of heavy spearmen units backed up with slingers preferably.If not just point some units to them so they dont get shots at your back.Finally when tired they die like everyone else.
    Last edited by Ksifos; 04-24-2011 at 07:34.

  17. #17

    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Slingers are extremely powerful in EB, and I find I have to use house rules to limit their effect on the battlefield, otherwise battles become unhistorical and too easy.

    Slinger House Rules:
    1. No more than one unit of slingers per 7 units in the army. (e.g. for a celtic army, 3 spearmen, 2 swordsmen, 1 cavalry and 1 slinger.) Never more than three slingers in the same army.
    2. Slingers to be deployed as a skirmish line in front of the main army, or on the flank. No friendly units between the slinger and the enemy unless the unit is in reserve.
    3. Slingers are not allowed to shoot if there is a friendly unit between them and the enemy, as the risk of friendly fire is too great. Exceptions: Slinger on steep forward slope and can shoot horizontally over the heads of the friendly unit in front, or the slinger is on top of a wall.
    4. Slingers to be deployed in the longest, thinnest line possible (loose formation, 2 ranks deep.) This to prevent slingers in rear ranks hitting their comrades in front ranks. Deeper formations only allowed when moving the unit from one location to another, or when unit is in reserve (both cases with fire at will switched off). Deep formation also allowed if the slingers are to charge into the enemy and fight hand to hand. The wide, thin formation is ideal for shooting at the enemy, but is very weak for hand to hand combat, so the slingers will be very vulnerable to a sudden enemy cavalry charge.
    5. Slingers not allowed to be retrained, merge depleted units with new units instead. Also, use experienced, depleted slingers as garrison units wherever possible, and use new, inexperienced slinger units with the field army.
    Last edited by Titus Marcellus Scato; 04-24-2011 at 11:31.

  18. #18
    Member Member Ca Putt's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    as mentioned before horse archers are a whole other story.- when youV'e got the choice to recruit just one unit, it'll most likely be the HA well unless your planning towards a siege or your faceing TABs.

    you know with pezhetairoi and even Argyraspidai you've get the feeling "wow now they at least scratch them" with Horse archers or normal archers once you get them behind them or in other words If you have superior numbers you can waste all your ammo on their backs and after a while they will be sufficiently weaker. even PedExes feature this to a very small extent but TABs, they just don't care from which direction you shoot at them with arrows they just don't die. I can still remember, winter, a river crossing...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    (i wonder why it wasn't frozen) a League Mercenary company is on its way to the main army to liberalte the syrian cities of Imperial Opression (bla bla bla) when a small detachment of Imperial troops emerged from the trees unaware of the odds the young Commander let his skythian raiders set over the second ford to the south to bring them into the back of the highwaymen, his plan succeded but what was that even tho tree regiments of Skythian Raiders had dispached all their arrows at the unshielded backs of these mosters not even five of them had fallen to the deadly rain. as he rode closer(Hellenic mercenary General) he saw the reson for his faillure, the men that blocked his path were nothing less than the Armored Royal Guard of the Seleukids, men overthrown with Metal like the Warriors of old with only small holes to look through at their trembling enemies.

    ok enough of this eventually I killed them with some losses but lesson learned - when the guy has more resemblance with a can than a man it does not matter from which direction you thow sticks at him :/

    Archers may be generally weaker due to Slingers beeing op because of the AP attack but they are still usefull:

    in Sieges(and RTW stands for repetitive-Sieges Total War) they are of advantage for both attacker and defender due to their high arc fire and the availibility of fire arrows whereas slingers not only have to have a strait line to attack but also suffer greatly from sieges featureing few (heavy)cavalry and assaulting/defending elites have to be fired at from the front where they have their shield :/
    in tight spots - where you cannot get the slingers around your battleline, archers can still fire from behind your troops and when needed use their fire arrows to mass rout the enemy.

    oh and to let elephants run amok istead of dieing :D

  19. #19
    Member Member A_Dane's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    The poll should have more options. I've inflicted heavy casualties with slingers, but fire arrows can really cause havoc as Ca Putt said. If you can just get them to rout, your light cavalry can kill them anyway. This is more easily done with archers than slingers :)

    Ps: those Armored royal guards dosn't care if you got slingers in their rear, they won't feel it anyway -.-

  20. #20
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Slingers if you don't want missile superiority and a unit that will get shot up or archers if you want missile superiority.
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    Member Member Geticus's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Slingers with "fast moving" trait make good skirmishers because they juke quickly back and forth and exploit the AI tendency to charge, retreat, charge, retreat. But the most useful long range missile infantry IMO are archer-spearmen (medjinikos, persian archer spearmen etc) and high lethality archer swordsmen like Bosphorans and Dacian Elite archers. These guys can initiate the battle with missile showers and then tip the scales during protracted melee with their spear/sword impetus.

  22. #22
    Member Member ximxim's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    When it comes to shooting stuff, I think slingers are generally better overall, but archer units often fill other roles as well, like the gallic, germanic and persian archer/spearmen, getic and bosphoran archer/longswordmen and the indians aka "drapanai in disguise".

  23. #23
    Intelligent Idiot Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    I prefer archers over slingers, any eastern archer will slaughter light infantry and cavalry with ease, so your melee troops can focus on the heavier troops and more easily flank them. I've always had a hard time getting slingers to inflict very many casualties on light or heavy infantry, but in my Saba campaign I've found that a couple of slinger units focusing their fire on hellenic bodyguard cavalry will kill most of the unit.

  24. #24
    Member Member Rahwana's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Slingers ate Catass for breakfast, nuff said
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    Xsaçapāvan é Skudra Member Atraphoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahwana View Post
    Slingers ate Catass for breakfast, nuff said
    Do not forget they need 4-5 exp to have a scratch on them...



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    Member Member fomalhaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Quote Originally Posted by Atraphoenix View Post
    Do not forget they need 4-5 exp to have a scratch on them...
    hmm? eastern slingers devestate Parni Early and even Late bodyguards. those stones crush the bones of my faithful brothers through their heavy armor

  27. #27
    Xsaçapāvan é Skudra Member Atraphoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    hmm? eastern slingers devestate Parni Early and even Late bodyguards. those stones crush the bones of my faithful brothers through their heavy armor
    Did I mentioned you before? I always kill slingers first then enemy general. I learned my lesson both on EB and unfortunate fate of Pacorus I of Parthia.



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  28. #28
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    One point I like about archers is that sometimes their fire arrow ability can give you the edge on breaking an opponents army's morale and thus save valuable soldiers lifes.

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    Member Member vollorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    Comparing apples with grapes won´t lead us anywhere, me thinks.

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    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: ...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

    I agree with the apples-grapes comment ;) - they both have their role and purpose... and yes I house-rule slingers too...
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