sigh for me the game feels dead

[FasT]

Omg! Really lol.. Game industry is makin millions game sales r up and rising..
Well if ur happy with the game as it stands, fine enjoy!
But all the vets and old school know know it's got many bugs and most r simple to patch! Others more complex .
Simple fact is game bugged. A good example is the ladder.. 1 day ur in top 10 next day ur 3k + that's lol..
Check the ladder now do u c the vets and old skool playing on it? They got their tokens and don't need to play against cheats and bugged system.
I rest my case on this matter now! CA need to fix it .. Simple !!!!!!

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Omg! Really lol.. Game industry is makin millions game sales r up and rising..
Well if ur happy with the game as it stands, fine enjoy!
But all the vets and old school know know it's got many bugs and most r simple to patch! Others more complex .
Simple fact is game bugged. A good example is the ladder.. 1 day ur in top 10 next day ur 3k + that's lol..
Check the ladder now do u c the vets and old skool playing on it? They got their tokens and don't need to play against cheats and bugged system.
I rest my case on this matter now! CA need to fix it .. Simple !!!!!!

So what if the game is bugged?M2TW had plenty of bugs and I don't see you complaing on that.


But all the vets and old school know know it's got many bugs and most r simple to patch! Others more complex .
What?You're saying to me that CA CAN'T FIX A SIMPLE PATCH?Man!They can fix your bloody patches!(Throws pie at your face in frustration)


Of course CA are fixing the game.Let them do it and you'll get it.ETW was crap compared to this brilliant game.

[FasT]

M2tw didn't play it.. Etw didn't play it.. Wonder why? Lol.
I'm not sayin CA can't fix it , and never posted that they can't .
So tell me this r they fixing ladder ? And wot bugs they fixing in next patch.?
It's so easy to tell us wot they intend on fixing but they don't .. They released a game full of bugs and server problems.
As I sAid let's hope they fix them. Then all is well:)
They need to keep the community more informed!

[OUT4BLOOD]

Stopped playing around 3/4 weeks ago, won't come back until it's pure classic mode and a lot of things are fixed

[UglyJun]

getting there too masked slowly but surely:(

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

FPS time my friends!!!!!

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

M2tw didn't play it.. Etw didn't play it.. Wonder why? Lol.
I'm not sayin CA can't fix it , and never posted that they can't .
So tell me this r they fixing ladder ? And wot bugs they fixing in next patch.?
It's so easy to tell us wot they intend on fixing but they don't .. They released a game full of bugs and server problems.
As I sAid let's hope they fix them. Then all is well:)
They need to keep the community more informed!

They would like too.But yo and others would bombard them every time they want to spea,wen they anncounce,they write really big.M2TW was great

I'm not sayin CA can't fix it , and never posted that they can't

Ya did.

''But all the vets and old school know know it's got many bugs and most r simple to patch! Others more complex ''

[Cu'Roi]

Well, to be fair to Takeda, you all will have to admit that if you come to this site as a new member and just want to enjoy playing in the community with the nice new game you have bought (and the game is pretty nice if you do not have the comparison of STW1 or MTW/VI), then the mood on this forum can sometimes be pretty depressing....

Really, Takeda, you have to know the history of this site and then you can better understand why everyone seems to be so agressive towards CA. It is not that we hate them. It is just that we want them to get their act together and become as good again as they once already were.

you think people are aggressive at CA? haha i haven't even gotten warmed up yet...

@ takeda: the problem takeda, is that when you and others defend a game that is really indefensible, the effect is to make it harder to lobby CA for changes. When CA checks this board, and they do, it's best if the problems are made clear and all opinions fall in line.

I'm not arguing for censorship, just trying to explain why people are saying what they are.

it is actually a form of "tough love."

of course most of the problems CA are well aware of, but to motivate them to fix the problems you must shout and never stop.

@all - don't be too quick to kill avatar. avatar now is bull crap.. avatar in concept is totally awesome, but they need to make sure the rules are fair for all, that people don't randomly lose their clan tokens and that all skills work on release because people waste tokens if they don't do that. Prior to the patch avatar was actually fair, people didn't like it still for a lot of reasons, but it was fair except for the random drops. the fact that people with more hours get more advantages is actually not inherently unfair, although it would be imbalanced, especially for a competition (unless u corrected for those imbalances ;)). to a lesser extent but still important they also need to make sure all upgrades work and balance test more to get the real costs for each skill because some skills are worth a lot more gold than their price and other skills are worth a lot less.

[AggonyKaptenFloede]

Maybe change CWB to classic?

[TinCow]

To those that haven't already, you should all join The Sengoku Jidai League. It's specifically designed to fix a lot of the issues you guys are having with the current system.

[RTKAbu]

Maybe change CWB to classic?

Why, although i have to agree that at this time its maybe better to ban veterans altogether, the general tree alone and the retainers are giving a new dimension to the game. Leadership for better overall morale, or a extra free GG unit general. The MM avatar system sucks, and the bugs threw away the veteran concept at all, but still, i prefer a game without vets or a limited amount of them then no extra tactical options at all, like is the case in classic.

In the avatar system i got something personal in the game where i can adjust my playstyle to it, classic is just a bad rip-off of stw1, infact, if you prefer classic and balance so much, i would advice you to play stw1 on servers as stw1 is better balanced then classic stw2. If you want to keep playing in the past, why even buy STW2? Yes, the avatar experiment of CA failed, and we know why, but some aspects are really good, although i doubt the 'classic hardcore players' will ever agree as they still believe 'balanced and fairness' should be as high as possible. I pity the 'balanced' argument, some people will always be better and fairness or balance will never be achieved anyway, some woman in rl will have more male hormones in tennis so they will perform better on a female tennis championships, some people have better eyes, some people can piss further because they got more muscles. In youre 'balanced fairness' imagined world you want clones fighting clones. If you want a real good total balanced game, when i was young i always played pong, really classic, totally fair, have fun with the oldscool grafix and classic gameplay, although, o wait, i still mostly won against my younger brother, so it couldnt be fair or balanced is it?

[Cu'Roi]

Maybe change CWB to classic?

there is no chance of that happening heh, the very structure of CWB sort of prevents that, especially at this stage. the 3 vet limit was actually a compromise between about 3-4 different view points. we found something everyone could live with.

prior to the big patch things were a lot better than they are now it's true, but they couldn't be anticipated. like this thing about people getting kicked from their clans is a phenomenon of the past 2 weeks really. the important thing to remember is simply if you wanna compare two players or teams, play classic. that said, i do truly believe that CWB is so close to fair it hardly matters because of the way we have carefully set up the rules. at any rate we were very clear at sign up about the most important rules, so people could judge for themselves whether they wanted to sign up or not.

of course the rules are also default rules so u can ask your opponent if they want to deviate from those rules. ofc only do this with people you know and trust, and best to document it in the match thread.

don't worry though, if the foyer lives, classic battles live! ...except for when swoosh is on hahah ;)~

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

you think people are aggressive at CA? haha i haven't even gotten warmed up yet...

@ takeda: the problem takeda, is that when you and others defend a game that is really indefensible, the effect is to make it harder to lobby CA for changes. When CA checks this board, and they do, it's best if the problems are made clear and all opinions fall in line.

I'm not arguing for censorship, just trying to explain why people are saying what they are.

it is actually a form of "tough love."

of course most of the problems CA are well aware of, but to motivate them to fix the problems you must shout and never stop.

@all - don't be too quick to kill avatar. avatar now is bull crap.. avatar in concept is totally awesome, but they need to make sure the rules are fair for all, that people don't randomly lose their clan tokens and that all skills work on release because people waste tokens if they don't do that. Prior to the patch avatar was actually fair, people didn't like it still for a lot of reasons, but it was fair except for the random drops. the fact that people with more hours get more advantages is actually not inherently unfair, although it would be imbalanced, especially for a competition (unless u corrected for those imbalances ;)). to a lesser extent but still important they also need to make sure all upgrades work and balance test more to get the real costs for each skill because some skills are worth a lot more gold than their price and other skills are worth a lot less.

I laugh at you,You have igroned what my points are.There is no such thing as 'toughlove',its what your parents would do to you.

is that when you and others defend a game that is really indefensible....

It is defensible.You're making a irrvealant point.


When CA checks this board, and they do, it's best if the problems are made clear and all opinions fall in line.

Then first of all:Tell the problems.They'll fix it,don't write in a bad way which is what many org members do here.Thats why you never get your requests told.



of course most of the problems CA are well aware of, but to motivate them to fix the problems you must shout and never stop.

Look at you,sounding like some wise person!Crap,total CRAP!Talk in a nice way and they will fix it.

[Andres]

I know I'm completely new to the MP part of TW gaming, but in the few MP games I played so far, I had... fun

Maybe it's a blessing to be a newbie who doesn't even notice the bugs, maybe you more experienced people just expect too much; I don't know.

All I know is that I play games for fun, and fun is what I'm having with this MP game.

A huge part of the fun factor to me is that this is so much different from playing FPS's online. My only experience with playing against humans over the internet has been with FPS games (and I suck at those too ), where most people either ignore you or insult you.

So far, I only encountered nice and friendly people while playing TW MP. A friendly chat before the game, wishing each other good luck. Playing and congratulating each other with their play. Of course, being the smooth talker I am, it's hard not to like me when you first meet me and I like talking to people. To me, the friendly chat is an important part of the fun.

The game itself has been a very interesting experience so far. Playing against a human opponent is so much harder and intense.

I know I still have a lot to learn and RL probably won't allow me to play enough to really get the hang of it and become good at MP; but, since I'm not somebody who makes a big deal out of losing, that's ok.

This coming from a newbie who only played 7 games so far (and lost 6 of them ).

Maybe if you approach the game from a different angle, namely as a fun diversion after a hard day of work, you could enjoy it again?

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

I know I'm completely new to the MP part of TW gaming, but in the few MP games I played so far, I had... fun

Maybe it's a blessing to be a newbie who doesn't even notice the bugs, maybe you more experienced people just expect too much; I don't know.

All I know is that I play games for fun, and fun is what I'm having with this MP game.

A huge part of the fun factor to me is that this is so much different from playing FPS's online. My only experience with playing against humans over the internet has been with FPS games (and I suck at those too ), where most people either ignore you or insult you.

So far, I only encountered nice and friendly people while playing TW MP. A friendly chat before the game, wishing each other good luck. Playing and congratulating each other with their play. Of course, being the smooth talker I am, it's hard not to like me when you first meet me and I like talking to people. To me, the friendly chat is an important part of the fun.

The game itself has been a very interesting experience so far. Playing against a human opponent is so much harder and intense.

I know I still have a lot to learn and RL probably won't allow me to play enough to really get the hang of it and become good at MP; but, since I'm not somebody who makes a big deal out of losing, that's ok.

This coming from a newbie who only played 7 games so far (and lost 6 of them ).

Maybe if you approach the game from a different angle, namely as a fun diversion after a hard day of work, you could enjoy it again?

Now that ladies and Gentlemen is a real answer!

[AggonyDuck]

Why, although i have to agree that at this time its maybe better to ban veterans altogether, the general tree alone and the retainers are giving a new dimension to the game. Leadership for better overall morale, or a extra free GG unit general. The MM avatar system sucks, and the bugs threw away the veteran concept at all, but still, i prefer a game without vets or a limited amount of them then no extra tactical options at all, like is the case in classic.

In the avatar system i got something personal in the game where i can adjust my playstyle to it, classic is just a bad rip-off of stw1, infact, if you prefer classic and balance so much, i would advice you to play stw1 on servers as stw1 is better balanced then classic stw2. If you want to keep playing in the past, why even buy STW2? Yes, the avatar experiment of CA failed, and we know why, but some aspects are really good, although i doubt the 'classic hardcore players' will ever agree as they still believe 'balanced and fairness' should be as high as possible. I pity the 'balanced' argument, some people will always be better and fairness or balance will never be achieved anyway, some woman in rl will have more male hormones in tennis so they will perform better on a female tennis championships, some people have better eyes, some people can piss further because they got more muscles. In youre 'balanced fairness' imagined world you want clones fighting clones. If you want a real good total balanced game, when i was young i always played pong, really classic, totally fair, have fun with the oldscool grafix and classic gameplay, although, o wait, i still mostly won against my younger brother, so it couldnt be fair or balanced is it?

My issue with avatar is that it has added complexity to something that was already complex enough. The game never needed things such as retainers and customisable veterans, it was great as it was. If CA had actually put all of their efforts into classic Total War, they would probably had delivered the best Total War MP experience that we have seen. Now all this extra effort was spent doing something ambitious that A) doesn't really work all that well B) doesn't really make the game any more enjoyable. This is the great shame of Shogun 2 MP.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

My issue with avatar is that it has added complexity to something that was already complex enough. The game never needed things such as retainers and customisable veterans, it was great as it was. If CA had actually put all of their efforts into classic Total War, they would probably had delivered the best Total War MP experience that we have seen. Now all this extra effort was spent doing something ambitious that A) doesn't really work all that well B) doesn't really make the game any more enjoyable. This is the great shame of Shogun 2 MP.

Which is why people are being pushed away to other MP games.

[AggonyKaptenFloede]

I have played many games of both types. I used to play lots of avatar mode and it took a while for me to get used to classic mode, but now i've just quit playing avatar mode, cause imo classic is the far superior total war feel. Once you go classic you never go back. =)

[Sp00n]

I'm still enjoying it, I have 2 accounts and have different avatar gens on each so I tend to switch between bow and melee gens to alter the experience. All TW games have had issues, but I still think its the best online experience since Shogun/MTW.

[Nigel]

...., I have 2 accounts ......

Does this mean you have bought the game twice ?
Just curious.

[Swoosh So]

Maybe change CWB to classic?

pfft
Ive had nothing but bad experiences with classic - lag and drops. Avatar is fine imo with some rules. Especially with no vets rules it surely trumps all over the classic mode. The upgrades in classic are outdated and stupid.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Then we can agree that MP is not fixed,but its being fixed,why are there no harsh critics of ETW?ETW was absoulte crap.And the most unrealiitc game

[AggonyKaptenFloede]

pfft
Ive had nothing but bad experiences with classic - lag and drops. Avatar is fine imo with some rules. Especially with no vets rules it surely trumps all over the classic mode. The upgrades in classic are outdated and stupid.

Avatar noob ;)

Retainers are worse than vets imo.

[Magyar Khan]

Classic mode is better yes but has flaws too and koc noticed some weird bugs himself

Duck, avatar mode could have been a succes and nice addition if it wasnt that bugged as it is now....

And for people who miss me at .com im banned till septembre :) who can exceed that?

[RTKAbu]

My issue with avatar is that it has added complexity to something that was already complex enough. The game never needed things such as retainers and customisable veterans, it was great as it was. If CA had actually put all of their efforts into classic Total War, they would probably had delivered the best Total War MP experience that we have seen. Now all this extra effort was spent doing something ambitious that A) doesn't really work all that well B) doesn't really make the game any more enjoyable. This is the great shame of Shogun 2 MP.

So why didnt you stick to STW1, as that was, as you say, good as it was. I have to say that while you luckily dont come up with the rediculous 'balance' argument some of the vets got, still its naive. You want a STW1 with better grafix? People want innovation, people expect innovation, people demand innovation. You cant come up with a vanilla classic game anymore. There are so many more factors involved in war, that you can always expand the scope of this series, and in a way they tried to do that. If you found TW already complex enough, go back to STW1, and i advice you and all the other vets who refuse more complexity to abondon the TW series as you will proably stuggle even more with the upcoming releases.

The way this series went to is pretty logical. They hoped the lack of unit diversity STW1 had, would been solved by adding personalised and experienced units. In theory this is just creating units yourself instead of them making hundreds of units like they tried in ETW and NTW. The same is done with the general, in ETW and NTW we already had generals as Napoleon playable, only, now they simply gave us the option to create a personal general ourselves. In a way i can even understand the retainers, armys had specialtys, some had better swords (Caesar made some remarkable quotes about weapan quality effecting battles), some had bit better bowmen etc., so i can even understand the retainer princeple. The fact is that at this moment, the veterans are unbalanced and bugged, the retainers only a gimmick and based on random drops (but still not that bad as people claim, as the most effective arent working anyway), and the only good pretty well balanced aspect is the general tree. Does that mean its enough reasen to shoot the avatar mode?

Refusing the avatar mode simply is refusing the future of the TW series, refusing more complexity, refusing innovation, you and the vets keep staying in the past. You dont understand they gave every effort to the classic total war mode....., which resulted in the avatar mode, more tactical options, more personalised features, more focus on multiplayer, every gamer would love and embrace that, except the the vets of the TW community. The avatar mode is tourney playable with some rules, but hell, the classic needs also rules, so whats the difference? Now the classic mode won the tourney stuglle as all the tourneys are hosted by mainly vets who never gave avatar a real chance (we both know everyone shotted it on day 1 on the private forums of CWC....), but this is only a temporalily stuggle, this game with all its bugs, atracted more people then the vets of the old days, and they embrace the avatar system, its a matter of time untill the classic mode will have the same faith as NTW3, played by a hardcore group, i even got doubt that classic will be a feature in the next total war game, and well, i would advice them to focus everything in the avatar mode which in theory, got the future of the TW franchise in it.

As it now stands, i have more fun in training for CWB, then i ever had for CWC, with the general trees, and only a limited amound of vets (although i pref. no or maybe even 1 vet max) on the field, the possibilitys are almost endless. CWB isnt only a tactical aspect on the field like classic battles are (which some people find fun aswell), but CWB also takes the pre-phase battle serious, which generals to go for, which of the limited vets to use, which upgrades to use on them, and then of course to finish the battle on the field.

You prefer a child book, i prefer a literary novel, although i understand that novel i prefer got grammer and spelling mistakes as its the first press, but i make grammer and spelling mistakes to when i havent let my text check by MSWords (like now :P)

[AggonyKaptenFloede]

You prefer a child book, i prefer a literary novel, although i understand that novel i prefer got grammer and spelling mistakes as its the first press, but i make grammer and spelling mistakes to when i havent let my text check by MSWords (like now :P)

You got it wrong Abu. It's avatar mode that is for children. It's just not made for competitive play. Sure many ppl think its fun to build your avatar and come up with some special type army with retainers and upgrades and stuff but imo it's kind of silly. Almost everyone dislikes the cheese armies that come from avatar mode except the players that rely on them.

[AggonyDuck]

That was a rather poor analogy. Comparing to the older Total War titles to children's literature does a huge disservice to their complexity. There was a wealth of tactical options in those games and I still think of Total War as a fast-paced realtime chess where each piece is able to be moved at the same time. The surface of the game might have appeared fairly simple, but behind it lies a wealth of complexity. Now what CA has done is to add complexity to the surface, but in effect have only added artificial complexity that serves both to limit the natural complexity of the game and the freedom of choice of the player.

Also with regard to your claims that Avatar has added tactical options, I'd beg to disagree. Most of the new features have only added to the importance of army selection and have in fact ended up limiting players more than anything by making the choices we make more constant.

1. Regarding veterans. Most of the veteran upgrades are largely worthless. The really useful ones are those affecting charge/attack/defense and accuracy/reload/extra ammunition/increased range. Add to this of course Rapid Volley, which can just be ridiculous at times. The previous upgrade system actually allowed very similar upgrades, but with the difference that the player wasn't limited by his veteran pool. Now it is easier to predict what type of builds players will bring as the number of veterans is limited.

2. Regarding generals. Essentially we have been given the choice between three different general types. How exactly is this an improvement on the situation we had in earlier games, where we were free to choose any unit as our general? The biggest difference here is that they have merely decided to make the strength of the general unit stronger, making the use of the general more decisive. This has changed the game, but it hasn't made the game that much more complex. And again this is a case where freedom of choice has been artificially limited.

3. Regarding customisation. This is one of the few excellent additions to the multiplayer game. It works really well and doesn't detract from the game experience at all. It is just a shame that CA did not add this to the Classic mode.

4. Regarding retainers. I think retainers are a fairly unnecessary addition to the game. Yes, they add more choices but they do not contribute to making the game more enjoyable. Mainly they only accentuate the importance of the army selection process and at worst can even break the unit balance (as prime example the combination of Rennyo's with the Way of the Ikko-Ikki).

5. Regarding ladders. The basic idea of reintroducing ladders was a great. However attaching the ladders to avatar mode was a poor idea. Due to the progression system and the fact that those who play more are rewarded with stronger units and retainers, we have a case where there is hardly ever a level playing field between contenders. I'd prefer a situation where all my opponents have exactly the same options available to them as I do. The game loses a lot of its thrill when you know that you have a clear advantage over your opponent. Another side-effect of the progression based system is that it makes it increasingly harder for newer players to pick up the game. Total War MP already had a very steep learning curve and now new players have to play in a situation where they are also at a disadvantage in terms of unit selection, veterans and general skills. Only the most persistent of new players will actually stick around.

And a nasty side-effect of all these new factors is that they make the game progressively harder to balance. There are too many factors affecting how units work and often small changes can result in unforeseen consequences. Why do you think the game, especially the avatar mode, still has considerable balance issues?

I will hold on to my view that if CA had actually stuck to Classic mode and instead concentrated on adding customisation, match-making features and ladders to it, we would now have on our hands the best and most polished Total War MP experience ever. Instead we are here with a game with two flawed modes of which neither can be seen as being perfect for tournaments.

Also, who said anything about struggling to adapt?

[Cu'Roi]

Classic mode is better yes but has flaws too and koc noticed some weird bugs himself

Duck, avatar mode could have been a succes and nice addition if it wasnt that bugged as it is now....

And for people who miss me at .com im banned till septembre :) who can exceed that?

the rate at which they ban paying customers on those boards is disturbing. actually though to edit this on i did look at your post history and the last 15 posts you have made are all a variation of "this game is broken" lol. :)~

you're def. right it's just not surprising they banned you either.

[AMP]

The sad part is that really what they were trying to do isn't that complicated compared to some other RTS games out there. In fact you could call it pretty simple in today's world of gaming. They just don't have either the skills, man power, or money to make it happen it seems... which is it? O.o

[Magyar Khan]

i agree with u all........ in a way its so close to perfect and the way its done its so far away from it....