Baktria - Opening moves and early strategy

[Rumpole]

You start with just one city, but there are lots of lightly defended nearby settlements that belong to your supposed allies the Seleukids. You can capture three of them and get out of debt in just a couple of years.

Send the army of Patrokles, minus one archer, to attack Alexandreia-Eschate.
Send the army of Theodotes to attach Antiochea-Margiane.
Send all the troops in Baktra, plus the extra archer, to attack Alexandreia-Ariana.

In Baktra, queue up foreign conscription and recruit two phalanxes and two slingers.

On the third turn you can attack all three cities and take over Eschate, which has no wall.
The next turn you can capture the other two cities.

By mid-271 you control four settlements and are out of debt.

Continue your blitz of the Seleukids by attacking Marakanda. For some reason, Marakanda tends to rebel. If that happens, the garrison will consist of cavalry and archer-spearmen, and any army that includes a couple of phalanxes can beat it on auto-resolve. There will also be an expelled Seleukid army that can cause trouble.

Now switch to defense. Fight off incursions by the Seleukids and Saka while building up your infrastructure. You should be able to start building mines in Eschate and Marakanda about 267.

Expect the Seleukids to make one serious attempt to retake Alexandreia-Ariana. After that, a fort just south of the river appears to be enough to discourage them, perhaps for decades.

Beating the Saka on the battlefield is almost impossible. If you are not averse to exploits, build phalanxes and auto-resolve all your battles with them. It is convenient to wipe them while you are free from Seleukid attacks.

Once you have built mines in the captured Saka cities, you can capture the rebel provinces on the eastern edge of the map and then raise a large army to take on the Seleukids.

[OctoJob]

Having just started with Baktria myself, I am inclined to agree with the points presented. If it weren't for the early debt, I would not want to attack either the Seleukids or the Saka. However, financial matters point towards an early offensive strategy.

I would also like to add that it is NOT a good idea to attack the north - eastern eleytheroi town (goya - something) first, just because the game places your spy there. This is because there's a large (1300+ troops) rebel army next to this town which, if you were to attack the province, is extremely likely to either ambush you or fight you in terrain extremely favorable for them. Add to that the fact that this army consists primarily of Saka horsemen, and you have a recipe for disaster. Avoid this city until you have a large enough army to devote to the cause.

[d'Arthez]

There are several options:

1. blitz to take out Pahlava. The main advantage would be that you won't have to fight them later, but their lands are not THAT wealthy. Not worth the effort, especially if you also have to defend the bigger border against the Saka.

2. Blitz to cripple the Seleukids
It is probably better to avoid Alexandreia-Escate unless you are ready for war with the Saka. Preferably, let the Seleukids try and defend the border against them. It is not your money and troops that go down the drain that way. Keep Baktra as your northern border until you have established a large empire, since it is a lot easier to defend (stone walls will really make your life a lot easier) and the Sake are far less likely to declare war on you, even if they take Alexandreia-Escate and Marakanda. For a similar reason it might be a good idea to make certain the Pahlava border at least one Seleucid province.

There are plenty of potentially rich settlements around (Kophen and most Seleucid cities have mines or can build them). The Indian cities can provide you with powerful units as well, though it will take a lot of precious time to conquer them. Spend some time building up the mines, since they will allow you to field massive armies.

Because distances are relatively large, you can gobble up the Eastern Seleucid holdings without too many problems, since it will take their armies a year to get from the heartland (Seleukeia, Babylon, Ekbatana, Susa, Arbela, Charax) to the eastern frontier, and another year to get to Baktra. Just try to keep as few as possible border cities to allow yourself to intercept anything coming for you from there with the might of your campaign army.

3. Turtle along, and take Kophen, Takshashila, and the rest of the rebel cities around, avoiding Gava-Haomavarga and a potentially rebelled Alexandreia-Escate (unless you want to enjoy the thrill of war with the Saka) and slowly build up your economy, deliberately avoiding war with the Seleucids. Problem there is that your economy will not really develop as nicely as under #2, since Seleucids often don't invest in their eastern cities so when you do eventually take them, you still have to develop them. Another downside is that you have to garrison Baktra well, since you may otherwise end up being attacked by a wandering Seleucid army.

Never underestimate the uses of spies and watch towers. When the Ptolemaic diplomat comes offering peace, make sure you collect a few thousand Mnai. Make good use of your regional units (Eastern Slingers, Persian Archers, Persian Archer-Spearmen). They are good quality and can be retrained in most of your settlements, at a relatively limited cost.

I prefer tactic #2, but #3 is certainly viable as well.

[Jive]

QUOTE=Rumpole;2053320355]You start with just one city, but there are lots of lightly defended nearby settlements that belong to your supposed allies the Seleukids. You can capture three of them and get out of debt in just a couple of years.

Send the army of Patrokles, minus one archer, to attack Alexandreia-Eschate.
Send the army of Theodotes to attach Antiochea-Margiane.
Send all the troops in Baktra, plus the extra archer, to attack Alexandreia-Ariana."

Silly me. Since the Seleukids were my good buddies and I didn't want to ruffle their feathers, I thought it would be a great idea to go after Chach. Brilliant, eh? Chach turned out to be an isolated backwater, Saka were furious, Pahlava attacked me a few turns later because of my "alliance" with Selukiae, and then the Ptolemoids jumped in since they were allied with Pahlava. So I wound up fighting a three-front war just to keep friendly relations with a useless ally!


"Beating the Saka on the battlefield is almost impossible. If you are not averse to exploits, build phalanxes and auto-resolve all your battles with them. It is convenient to wipe them while you are free from Seleukid attacks."

Difficult and exhausting, but not impossible. As others have mentioned, you should fight them in hills, mountains, and settlements to reduce their mobility. Have at least a two-to-one numerical advantage. Try to get them to attack you; otherwise avoid attacking them if they have a significant elevation advantage. Keep your units together at all times and don't chase routers (unless you've already won). Keep your phalanxes in front to absorb missile fire, while guarding their flanks with regular infantry and skirmishers (more armor the better). Stay constantly on the alert for sudden attacks to your flanks and rear. And once you (finally!) manage to take one of their towns, get a Type-IV government and mercenary general as soon as possible.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Silly me. Since the Seleukids were my good buddies and I didn't want to ruffle their feathers, I thought it would be a great idea to go after Chach. Brilliant, eh? Chach turned out to be an isolated backwater, Saka were furious, Pahlava attacked me a few turns later because of my "alliance" with Selukiae, and then the Ptolemoids jumped in since they were allied with Pahlava. So I wound up fighting a three-front war just to keep friendly relations with a useless ally!

It will get worse. If you don't keep the Seleucids sweet by paying them continous regular tribute (say 200 mnai a turn for 40 turns, a ten-year stretch) they are almost certain to attack you as well.

[Jive]

It will get worse. If you don't keep the Seleucids sweet by paying them continous regular tribute (say 200 mnai a turn for 40 turns, a ten-year stretch) they are almost certain to attack you as well.

It sure did! At one point I lost Chach, Marakanda and Alexandreia-Eschate to Saka, and it took about five years of brutal warfare (including two Heroic wins) to get them back. But the Seleucids didn't attack me at all, perhaps 'cuz we were still allies.

Believe it or don't I actually won in 194 BCE. For some reason I'm not allowed to post attachments here but you can check out my pics at twcenter.net (it's the "your EB campaign" thread, pg. 58).

[OctoJob]

I have come to understand that the Saka are to be avoided at all costs until the Baktrian Basileas can field huge armies for the cause. Thus, the OP's advice on taking Alexandria - Eschate is a no go for me anymore.

In my latest attempt, I conquered Alexandria - Arianna and Antiochia - Margiane within a year, while simultaneously sending all remnants towards the eastern Eleytheroi settlement of Kophen. I hope this works out well and will share my experience.

Octo

[Jive]

HI. Just wanna see if my photobucket pic gets attached. Cheerio. Hey yeah, it works!

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Epeiros in Belgica...interesting

[OctoJob]

It seems that what early lack of troops cannot bring you, diplomacy and forts can.

I have made a new Baktria effort, which started by me immediately making peace with the Saka and constructing two forts across the river approaches to Alexandria - Eschate. In addition to the peace and forts, I also made an alliance with them in order to benefit as much as possible through trade (even though my trade summary scroll in Eschate reveals that they do not have much to offer me, which was to be expected) and decided to pay them a small amount of tribute for many seasons. It is now 15 years in the campaign and the Saka have neither attacked me nor broken their alliance / trade rights with me. Knock on wood, I guess.

While my relationship with the Seleukids is far from smooth, I have won two small wars, ending each with an offer of a ceasefire as well as trade rights. This, again, is extremely beneficial for my coffers, because the Seleukids are extremely rich and my trade route scout parties and river ports have been bringing in a substantial amount of trade. It is my goal to conquer the Eleytheroi town of Alexandropolis (I already have Kophen) in order to get richer and open up more indo-greek recruitment without attacking Taksashila, which is very hard to conquer.

I guess the jist of what I'm trying to say here is that diplomats and forts have pretty much given me hope in this campaign (I'm an EB noob, after all).

Regards,

Octo

[moriluk]

Never had a great campaign yet. Here is my lame history:
1st. (1.0) m/m went east. put all eggs in one basket. lost first ever battle against eleutherio city as i didn't know they had 3 garrisons of elephants including huge general. learned the value of spies. relatively inexperienced at that point, 4th total war campaign ever. (late 250s)
2ND (1.1) h/m: shamelessly quit after blitzing all the way to Babylon and trying to send armored war elephants to take Syria thinking 4 archers and 5 med phalanx will hold the fort then full stack of saka armored ha, catas, 4fm attacks Baktra. (early 250s)
2nd. h/m (1.2) same strategy; blitzed AS, got very rich, but after many many many battles against pahlava and their allies saka, i am wondering when i get my fabulous reforms and toggle fow to see epeiros has italy. (early 240s)

Perhaps because I don't play vh/m but i don't agree with the ingame assessment that they are one of the easier factions (challenging i think). Not to debate the difficulty of this game in general, but compared to other factions I find them slightly more challenging than their neighbors AS, Pahlava, and Saka. Early on Pahlava and Saka are tough to fight as you don't have much HA or heavy cav. Keeping your capitol at the center of expansion is difficult if trying to avoid fighting Pahlava, Saka, and AS at the same time. They seem to lose the most if no MOT. And their HA are nothing compared to Hayasdan, Pahlava, Sauro, and Saka. However, they have one of the most diverse armies in both factional and non-facitonal troops. At least equal to or greater than Carthage and Koinon Hellenon.

Thinking of starting one up at an incredibly late hour. My goal is to have India as early as possible. I want indian and baktrian elites invading persia and arabia without having to "cheat". The difficulty will be not having to blitz so much to afford the money and time for elites and then not have them too far away from the battle front.

It is that first turn choice...do I hope Pahlava doesn't attack me for a long time? Or do I hope AS doesn't attack me for a little time? I am unsure how long I can keep an alliance with AS on H/M. I may take a tip from here and offer Saka a small amount of money for a very long time. Maybe I will try this with AS too.

edit:
1st turn: Sent Petrokles (sp?) north to Marakandios. Why not? his name sounds like the capitol.
everyone else sent to Margiane.
Diplomatically ended alliance with AS.
disbanded med cav
started building large stone walls.
recruiting one archer

[d'Arthez]

I think your playing style might be the cause of your problems with Pahlava and Saka. On the plains you are at a disadvantage, but in city combat the advantages are yours. Defending Baktra with a stone wall, some archers and slingers is a good idea. Slingers especially since their attacks are armor-piercing.

There is no point in taking Marakanda and Antiocheia-Escate. Not only do they earn you little money, it will also mean a very vulnerable border against Pahlava and / or the Saka. War with either faction ensures those provinces become money drains. Better to avoid them until you have built up your economy.
Since Baktria is a huge province, it does not hurt to put in a few watch towers. That way you can see approaching armies well in advance, and organize your defences if necessary. Let the AS try to defend those two provinces. It buys you some time, and often the Saka don't break through immediately (my experience on VH/M).

You can either buy peace with the AS and slowly expand eastwards, or expand through AS lands, but ensure that Pahlava always shares a border with them as well. If they don't, you will be considered a viable target. Build mines in Kophen as soon as you can, since they bring in 1800 Mnai / turn (Level 1). Add in some mining bonuses and a level 2 upgrade, and you can literally support a good army on the basis of that town alone. Such an army would be strong enough to take the Indian settlements, and if you are good at the sieges of the cities you might even conquer all three with that army.

Try to avoid long borders with the Saka and Pahlava in particular. You cannot really outmatch them until you have got your economy running, and your MICs upgraded to at least level 3.

[moriluk]

I think your playing style might be the cause of your problems with Pahlava and Saka. On the plains you are at a disadvantage, but in city combat the advantages are yours. Defending Baktra with a stone wall, some archers and slingers is a good idea. Slingers especially since their attacks are armor-piercing.

Yes, I know. The only problem I run into is that the AI rarely tries to enter my city, they just wait for me to come out. This ends up being a similar fight to the open plains. I do the same thing with HA armies where there is large walls or a huge city. So far I've take the 2 cities south of Bactria (Aria and the other), the city directly to the west (margiane sp?) the one to the north (Marakanda or Sogdiana?sp?). I am also looking for something of a challenge too mind you, this is why I am doing this. Primary early goals is to get up level 4 mic in Bactria as early as possible and in my other cities to get at least HA and/or spear units, beyond that my only interest outside of Baktra is trade. Lots and lots of trade. I want to test out Bactri'as semi-armored HA against Pahalava and Saka.

In my previous campaign it was 2 thorakitai (sp?) and 4 archers were able to fend of 3 AS seiges with full stacks of everything. My archers burned most siege equipement to the ground andwhen they did get it to the wall, my heavy spear units held the line. But as I said, AI rarely tries to enter my city unless they have a huge numbers advantage. A full stack of HA sieges Bactria all you can do is hope they try to come in. I noticed I can build level 1 gov in these areas and still get HA with level 2 local mic. Should be fun.

Again, not saying any of this is difficult. But I simply find Saka and Pahlava easier (because of their incredible starting cav) than Bactria. But then again, I play med battle always and bounce back and forth between med and hard campaign.

[d'Arthez]

They consider themselves outmatched, hence they will not attack. Lose a unit or two and they might suddenly be more inclined to attack. This is very annoying if it happens against a HA faction. With the Seleucids there are easy work arounds that do not require too much skill: Try to position your archers and slingers on the walls, so that they provide a bit of cover for your suicide squad. If you are lucky you can slowly draw the units to do something stupid - follow you. Ideally you would do this on two sides concurrently, with some backup cavalry to punish those who stray a bit too far.

This is far less effective against HA. Though the idea to use a unit as a pincushion (with cover) to deal with all the arrows is not a bad one in this situation either. HAs can't shoot you in the back if they have no arrows left, and the AI is quite prone to shoot at you when it is least effective. As slow as phalanxes are in comparison to HA, the presence of the city negates part of the disadvantage. Not only is there less space to move, the towers can help you kill those units that come too close to them (which can be exploited if a unit of yours is chased).

HA factions' dynamic mobility is what is causing most of the problems, and if you can limit their mobility the advantage should be yours, assuming you are not completely outnumbered and outmatched - against Saka armoured HA, you will probably need to outnumber them 2:1. If your army is strong enough and consists of enough units, it is then mainly a matter of positioning your phalanxes in such a way that the AI easily ends up in hand-to-hand combat with the enemy infantry, when you advance. In most cases spaces will be so limited that most of the advantages of HA and cataphracts are severely limited. You can divide your army in two then, and approach from both sides. Seeing that just a fraction of the map is available to the HAs, it will be a lot easier to catch them. Cataphracts will have less space for their charges as well. Which is also a huge bonus.

Though I suspect that if you play on Normal unit size, HA are even more effective than they are on Huge (cavalry is more effective and ranged attacks are more effective on smaller unit sizes). Huge helps in starting the accidental hand-to-hand combat as well.

That being said: I like to avoid those types of battles as much as possible. If you are playing on Huge in particular depopulation can quickly become a problem if you are not careful. That is another reason I tend to leave Marakanda to the AS. Let Pahlava, Saka, and AS fight it out themselves, as you build your economy. Taking possession of Antiocheia-Margiane does not seem to upset the Pahlava too much, as long as they share a border with AS. Seeing as you have already taken Marakanda, don't take Alexandreia-Escate under any circumstances - it would result in a declaration of war from Saka. Let the AS defend it. You can / should be able to usurp most of the valuable eastern AS holdings without getting in war with the Saka and Pahlava (Alexandreia-Margiana, Prophtasia, Alexandreia-Ariana, possibly Karmana, though it is quite close to Persepolis). Because distances are so big for the AS one small army can suffice to defend against them if you have a couple of spies in the area, or if the province is big enough - watchtowers. That will leave you with plenty of money in your coffins to develop the mines in Kophen, and build up the local economy.