The kind of broken game that CA sell me for $50, Cav charge bug

[versionlangley]

I'm not sure why there are competition floating around beside having a laugh, or players running around claiming they're better than another if this bug is alive. The bug has been mention many times before since day one but it has not been fix. So I think it worth mention over and over again until CA wake up and fix it, as it completely ruin any game balance. If there's any to begin with.

The bug I was referring to is the cav charge bug that players see. That is, a unit of inferior stats decimates a unit of higher stats in a charge.

Here's some clips of superior cav loosing in a charge

My general with both inspire and banzai stats: attack: 33, defense: 14, charge: 43, amour: 7
vs
Vanilla yari cav stats: attack: attack: 5, defense 1, charge: 25, bonus vs cav: 15, amour: 4
Result: general lost 7, vanilla cav lost 2
Please, someone from CA explain to me how did that happens?

Perhaps a clearer example: vetted Great Guard vs vanilla Great Guard

His Vetted Great Guard stats: attack: 27, defense: 11, charge: 45, bonus vs cav: 15, amour: 7
vs
My vanilla Greate Guard stats: attack: 15, defense: 5, charge: 35, bonus vs cav: 15, amour: 7
Result: one of his GG lost 10, i lost 1; another of his vetted GG lost 9, i lost 5. At the end both of our GGs routed but his routed first after loosing the engagement
Once again, would someone from CA explain to me what the hell just happens?

Still not convince? Plz enjoy this next video where my vanilla yari cav killed his vanilla GG

Stats: plz tell CA to look up the stats for themselves
Result: my vanilla yari cav lost 1 while his vanilla GG lost 17

All of these cav charge properly from a long distance as you can see their charging animation is activated. Although sometimes, a unit in proper charge will loose to a cav that is stationary. Watch pointman's video, skip to 5:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtGZjhiEFtU

This is sincerely a joke at best as no one in their right mind would publish this and charge people for it, right? I'm not sure whether beta tester don't see this (they probably did), or what dev are doing in their paid time to not fix it? Unfortunately this isn't random or occasional, but rather on an individual player versus player basis; player A will always get the bug advantage over player B no matter how, when or where you play. You can host a 1v1 classic with your friends or avatar mode with no vets&retainers; both of you each bring 1 yari cav and 1 GG; both each charge your yari against his GG and your GG charge against his yari; one of you will loose the charge on both engagement. Repeat this at different time, date and seasons. On the other hand, no matter how random it is, how is it possible for a charged cav to loose men to a stationary cav while stationary lost 1-2? It makes no sense for me, not for a game.

I'm trying my best to stay civil, but it hard not to buy box of this game, get a ticket to travel to their HQ and chuck one at each of their melon

Regards

[Lucullus]

Seconded

[Tomisama]

Versionlangley, you have done a great job explaining the problem.

Truly excellent!

And yes, well known but as yet still not fixed to my knowledge (I have not tested since last minor upgrade, last week).

The only part that bothers me is the consideration that standing cavalry is at a disadvantage against charging cavalry of equal strength.

Not to say that you are wrong, but I keep getting this vision of how difficult it is to aim a lance from a charging horse, versus a standing one.

Of course this would only apply if both units were facing each other, but also would extend to spears on foot.

On horse or foot, the chances of the standing unit sticking an attacker seem to be much better that his in sticking you.

Am I wrong?

[predaturd]

"My general with both inspire and banzai stats: attack: 33, defense: 14, charge: 43, amour: 7
vs
Vanilla yari cav stats: attack: attack: 5, defense 1, charge: 25, bonus vs cav: 15, amour: 4
Result: general lost 7, vanilla cav lost 2
Please, someone from CA explain to me how did that happens?"

Ok lets see, ari cavalry have spears so generals charge is nullified, that makes it 25+15+5 to attack during charge for the yari and 33 for the general. so 45 vs 33.
theres double the yari so thats essentially twice the attack power, that makes it 90vs33 33-1 (defence) 90-14*2 (defence)
now makes it 32vs62
you seriously still confused now? yari were doing nearly double the damage with all of them attacking at once while the general unit was all over the place.

[AggonyKing]

although I find some humor when a vanilla yari cav beats a high vetted GG, this bug is really quite a game killer (that, and besides other bugs and design flaws) it sure has made me take a step back on this game. Now I play it only when asked. Can't seem to have fun with it anymore...at least the MP side. Maybe I'll try MP campaign instead.

[spicykorean]

"My general with both inspire and banzai stats: attack: 33, defense: 14, charge: 43, amour: 7
vs
Vanilla yari cav stats: attack: attack: 5, defense 1, charge: 25, bonus vs cav: 15, amour: 4
Result: general lost 7, vanilla cav lost 2
Please, someone from CA explain to me how did that happens?"

Ok lets see, ari cavalry have spears so generals charge is nullified, that makes it 25+15+5 to attack during charge for the yari and 33 for the general. so 45 vs 33.
theres double the yari so thats essentially twice the attack power, that makes it 90vs33 33-1 (defence) 90-14*2 (defence)
now makes it 32vs62
you seriously still confused now? yari were doing nearly double the damage with all of them attacking at once while the general unit was all over the place.

He said that it's not the best example, but the other examples can't be so easily picked out and dismissed.

[predaturd]

He said that it's not the best example, but the other examples can't be so easily picked out and dismissed.

2nd video, cavalry extra width, during charge a load of them run down the flanks then swirl back in and encircle him, strikes to the back and side tend to be more lethal, also has the side effect of removing people from possible casualties during the initial charge without making the charge weaker. Also the first unit half hit the enemy 2nd unit and that half lagged behind in the charge, making it a lot weaker.

[versionlangley]

@tomisama....hmm, you're right, staying true to the law of physics, an object acting on an other object observe the same amount of forces acting on it. However, unlike yari foot who can plant their spears onto the ground, yari cav is a non-rigid body and movable. Thus, according to the conservation of momentum, as a yari cav charge a stationa.......and suppose to say that it is a perfectly elastic collision.....

Dunno how it works m8 ...on a man to man fight, a yari foot have a better chance of avoiding the cav yari point (hence the naginata or the nagamaki makes more sense), but it difficult for a horseman avoid so. So i think on a horseman vs horseman fight, both have the same chance of inflicting a wound. However, the charge person has both the momentum to dismount his opponent as well as the ability to control the time at which his spear reach the target. In other words, he doesn't just point his spear out and run, but rather, timed the impact moment to perform a body-> arm thrust for max force.

@predaturd... are you from CA or can you provide some table/data proof of what you mentioned? Or you just make up these idea as you see fit?
General's charge value get cancel because the other is a yari cav? What kind of absurdity is that? Does a katana samurai charge get cancel when facing yari ashigaru or samurai as well?
On the second video, the extra cav of the wide spread run pass the thick rank one, where do you see them turn around and make a charge? The casualties are done before they turn around for the fight. If the 2nd cav of my opponent get snag onto my first cav, how come they don't cause any damage to my first cav? My 2nd cav is very close behind

Again m8, show me some data instead of making your own convenient theory
Would you mind explain the third video as well as PointMan video while you at it?

[Tomisama]

Just a thought born of the depth that we are getting into:

Replays would be a much better source to examine the animation mechanics to see if there are any answers there as to why we get the results we do.

I have already done a number of these studies to understand some of the unrealistic activities (read cheats) that matchlocks can be ordered to perform.

It is quite remarkable how much you can find by very close observation.

And repeated testing is a must, as the range variations possible can be quite large.

[versionlangley]

Here's a replay example

rice field, classic mode, 2 rank deep charge yari vs yari and GG vs yari. Out of 9 times, I loose every time

Note: there's one instance where i have to pull back my yari because my opponent didn't have enough time to give off a charge

[Tomisama]

Sorry, could not get your file to work. Maybe the compression had an affect? Try it without, and be sure the file is named with a dot replay.

While I had the game open this morning I tried around 16 quick battles in custom to test some possibilities of Yari Cavalry versus Great Guard, and same unit charging versus standing.

And yes I know that Custom and Classic are not necessarily the same. Although derived from the same specs, I believe some variations or glitches have crept in. But for the sake of what was “intended”, I think we can trust Custom testing.

First, I never got the Yari to beat the Great Guard any which way it was attempted. That does not mean that there is not a problem, just that was never intended in the design, so something else is wrong.

Second, you must come to terms with the reality that doing anything on foot is twice as easy as doing it on horseback, and working from a moving horse is about five to ten times harder than a standing one (shooting a bow is a worst case example).

Aiming a lance at a potentially movable target from a galloping horse is much harder than positioning a lance point from a stationary position (even sitting on a horse), following a target coming at you.

This is why charging “directly” into the standing lances of any unit, will probably always be a disaster. A full frontal charge is a bad and loosing tactic, and probably why the AI always opts for an oblique entry point, given the same situation.

Of course this has nothing to do (directly) with your Yari vs. GG both charging each other video above. We still need to investigate that one in detail.

I hope the Yari and Guard error is fixed soon, and I am still very interested in viewing your replay. Maybe send to tomisama@hotmail.com when you get a chance.

Thanks!

[Nigel]

player A will always get the bug advantage over player B no matter how

Just to help me understand that comment better:
Do you mean the player on the left hand side of the setup screen is always advantaged over the player on the right hand side?
Or do you mean a certain player (IP address, whatever) is always advantaged over another certain player, no matter who hosts or is on what side?

[AggonyKing]

First, I never got the Yari to beat the Great Guard any which way it was attempted. That does not mean that there is not a problem, just that was never intended in the design, so something else is wrong.

I have actually seen Yari beat GG on classic mode hehe and I have been on the good side of it. Just ask Ducky, he'll tell you how my 1 unit of Yari Cav beat his 1 unit of GG on one match we had.

I have to say though, very rare to see this but so far from what I seen Yari vs Yari seem to be completely random or close to it @_@

[Tomisama]

player A will always get the bug advantage over player B no matter how, when or where you play.

I have noticed this even in today’s testing against the AI, “it seems” that the benefit of the doubt (like in a 50/50 situation) always leans to the human player.

In other words, I would win all “close” matches for no real reason. You don’t see this unless you do a number of back to back sets, without any personal intervention.

Needs documented testing, but may carry to Attacking player or Host's team?

[AggonyReborn]

Its truly sad as this bugg is truly a problem, but CA doesnt listen to its main supporters, and if they do its very selective and doesnt do any good. They fix something but the other something that worked just fine becomes broken. To fix is to break things, when will they truly fix a real problem!!!! I think never, they too focused on the next project way to fast. One thing is for sure when Empire was released it was plagued with bugs, then they released napoleon and to be precise its Empires with a different name where they finally fixed all the bugs.

If you want these buggs fixed dont hold your breath for a solid patch. Wait for the next installmant where they finally get their act together as they usually do just takes our hard earned money for them to do so while we trudge through broken material........... then players fade and fade and never get to see the finally fixed product.

[versionlangley]

@Nigel... from what i've seen, it's base perhaps on steam id? or IP? Example is I play 1v1 a lot with a friend since the march release and I've lost cav charge to him every time ever since. Except for 1 or 2 matches, but that kind of rare occurrence can considered to be ignore. I also played with another player and i always win charge vs him.

We did try the test with switching host and attack/defender position in the past. Out of 6 matches, I only loose charge advantage in one match. So it's inconclusive as to whether host or attack/defender position do effect or not

@tomisama...the replay works fine for me though, i'll send you another one. Try the zipped one first, as in the past, sending naked replays cause some form corruption perhaps and events occur differently.
The yari cav doesn't necessary have to beat the GG, it's winning the charge. On a large block to large block charge, the advantage yari might not take out enough GG men to win the entire engagement. On a small thin line vs thin line however, the charge might be detrimental enough that the yari can beat the GG

First, I never got the Yari to be... for an oblique entry point, given the same situation.

Unlike the lance though, the yari and spear is lighter and is more flexible. The stationary horseman have better aiming capability, that might be true, but he'll have trouble timing the impact to thrust his spear. The charging horseman on the other hand can adjust and can time it better for first hit, whether they pass on their left or right. Either case, once the yari has been planted into the flesh, there's the trouble of passing each other. The charging horseman has the momentum to push/distmount the stationary horseman and remove his spear. Especially naginata vs naginata, the momentum and timing play a significantly larger role imo

Charging a stationary spear block is a disaster, but cav vs cav tend to be spread out?

[Cu'Roi]

although I find some humor when a vanilla yari cav beats a high vetted GG, this bug is really quite a game killer (that, and besides other bugs and design flaws) it sure has made me take a step back on this game. Now I play it only when asked. Can't seem to have fun with it anymore...at least the MP side. Maybe I'll try MP campaign instead.

MPC is where it's at!!! my plan for TW varies when i get a new game, but the last phase before i leave the game to wait for a new one is the MPC!!!

@ shiki - looks like everyone has their breaking point and they've hit yours. welcome to the club.

i got some stuff to speak on this thread about, and some testresults me and boats tested months ago. and i also have some questions.

i will bless you all with knowledge later ion if i can remember!!!!

[versionlangley]

I hit my break point a while ago when i buy shogun 2 and there's no global lobby chat. There's no chance of me finding a good classic game
Result? I join a clan ^^;;;;;

Admittedly that was the better move...but i'd like to prolong my ronin status

Edit: CA has a history of cav bug of every game since RTW and they have cause extreme frustration. I'm trying to stamp this one out early....eventually

[Tomisama]

The yari cav doesn't necessary have to beat the GG, it's winning the charge. On a large block to large block charge, the advantage yari might not take out enough GG men to win the entire engagement. On a small thin line vs thin line however, the charge might be detrimental enough that the yari can beat the GG

Got your email and will be looking as soon as I am finished here now. Thanks!

We did try the test with switching host and attack/defender position in the past. Out of 6 matches, I only loose charge advantage in one match. So it's inconclusive as to whether host or attack/defender position do effect or not.

I will be doing an intensive testing this morning, to prove what I can (have several theories).

Until then, consider that the game is actually only processing one action at a time, and if two units are charging each other, the benefit of advantage can only be given to one of the opponents at a time, with the result affecting the numbers of the other, so that even when the second unit has their advantage added, they are already suffering a loss of men and potential to benefit from it.

Be back soon

[Tomisama]

Of the ten encounters (if you can count the last rout - jk), there are only two possible conclusions so far.

Because you (the Attacker) lost all but one face-off:

One; you are the unluckiest player on the planet (when can we play, hehe).

Two; the Defending human player has the benefit advantage on all first encounters.

For a while I thought that because the Attacker’s initiating the charging had something to do with it, but that changed hands later on without affecting the first encounters.

The only variation of winning was in the fifth encounter, when the Attacker is again loosing the initial encounter, but in mid-battle both with 23 men left both receive an upgrade, and the Attackers won that time.

The really odd part in that one was that when that one was over, the Attackers had then two upgrades^^, where as in all other encounters when the Defenders won, they only ended up with one upgrade ^.

Another observation, the battle-bar began moving about mid battle, and the farther it moved against the Attackers, the faster it seemed that they lost each individual encounter.

This may be because near the end, the Defender took to being the first to start charging (somehow increasing their encounter advantage), or because the position of the bar was affecting morale somehow.

Maybe neither, as there were to few of the last face-offs left to establish a clear pattern.

From what I have seen and experienced so far, I think that there is a real possibility that in “initial” head-to-head (face to face) Yari cavalry encounters are biased to the Defender.

This may also be true of the human player versus the AI.

Now to test that theory

[][GERUDO][ Harba]

The really odd part in that one was that when that one was over, the Attackers had then two upgrades^^, where as in all other encounters when the Defenders won, they only ended up with one upgrade ^.

I've once entered into a classic battle with matchlocks that I put one upgrade, but once the battle started they all had 2 upgrades..

[Tomisama]

In working in Custom with Yari vs. Yari on various maps the result was always the same.

Human Attacker versus standing AI Defender always looses.

AI Attacker versus standing human Defender, Attacker always wins. This may seem contrary to the above form, except the AI Attacker always changes to a oblique attack at the last minute, where as the human Attacker can not do that, as the AI reacts instantly with an oblique counter.

The only way the following can be arranged in Custom is with the human as defender, matching the Attacker in attack before the Attacker can pull the above maneuver. When the Defending human charges the charging AI Attacker head-to-head, the Defender always wins.

This may not be totally conclusive, but from the last few days efforts it seems that there is a repeating pattern of Defender bias.


The Yari Cavalry Defender will at least win the initial encounter in a head-to-head charge, and usually the whole engagement.

The Yari Cavalry Defender will win in a head-to-head charge against the AI.

Standing Yari Cavalry will win against head-to-head charging Yari Cavalry.

It would seem that the only time the Defender bias is broken, is when the Attacker would be standing still (but this needs to be tested in Classic).

[Tomisama]

I've once entered into a classic battle with matchlocks that I put one upgrade, but once the battle started they all had 2 upgrades..

Yup, was a Classic bug, and was reported. Not sure if it still exists.

[][GERUDO][ Harba]

Happened like two days ago :P

[versionlangley]

Until then, consider that the game is actually only processing one action at a time, and if two units are charging each other, the benefit of advantage can only be given to one of the opponents at a time, with the result affecting the numbers of the other, so that even when the second unit has their advantage added, they are already suffering a loss of men and potential to benefit from it.

My original thought as well. Credits go to the steam engine. Same line of thinking as bad bullet registering in a first person shooter game

Part of the reason why I disagree with stationary cav having an advantage is that it means the defending player is not paying attention to his men...So I imagine that the cavalry men is not paying attention either and do not have their yari down on time in panic :P. If stationary is beneficial like you said previously, then counter charge at the last minutes is the worst idea as the horse jump start and they won't have enough momentum of a long charge.
Granted a rear charge is always better than a frontal one, but punishing the attacking player means everyone will be stand waiting for a cav charge.

There's an interesting aid de camp advise in the previous TW installment though where he said a counter charge is sometimes better as it keep men in formation till the last minute. If so, then there should be a minimum distance where they can give a proper charge, and a maximum distance where they're no longer benefit from the formation of a counter charge. Also the benefit of such good formation should only be morale.

[Tomisama]

My original thought as well. Credits go to the steam engine. Same line of thinking as bad bullet registering in a first person shooter game

But that's just how computers work. And Shogun is not a Steam server game, only available through Steam as a Real Time Strategy game. In Total War games, the host player is the server for the game. You are connected to Steam as well for in-game communication, but the game is running on the hosts machine (very much like a LAN).

If stationary is beneficial like you said previously, then counter charge at the last minutes is the worst idea as the horse jump start and they won't have enough momentum of a long charge.

It would be the worst idea considering a four rank “head-to-head” encounter, but head-to-head is not the recommended way to attack, if you want to win.

Set up a Custom battle with only two Yari Cavalry opponents, and you take the Defenders side. Start the battle and sit and watch how the AI handles the attack.

They come right up to just short of throwing distance and swerve to the right, avoiding the direct frontal attack (for obvious reasons), and redirect to the flank of your standing four rank formation (your left oblique) .

Try this with different depths of ranks, to get a clearer idea as to exactly what the AI is doing.

Now reverse the situation, and watch how the AI counters your attempts to perform the same attack on them

[versionlangley]

If it isn't steam related, that means that CA is aware of the issue during the design?

Concerning charging in at an angle, I dug up another clip recorded a while back. This is versus a player i normally win charge against. He comes at me at an angle


It not exactly 100% angled as my men did a counter charge at the end, but they charge at an oblique. I still win though

[Tomisama]

[versionlangley]

The cav charge mechanic is still broken,
Here some of CA new and improve Fire cav getting killed at charge by my regular yari cav. Avatar mode. We both use walk charge. Enjoy


Tournament is in progress or about to start, and with this, it can not be call competitive or tourney

[Tomisama]

Because of the large spec imbalance between the two units in favor of the Fire Cavalry, this quick and massive loss for them is most like likely the Cavalry Charge Bug reported on the dot com.

1. The Cavalry charges against cavalry are just plain broken. It often just randomly selects one of the cav units to actually do the charge bonus which results in the other cav unit dropping to 50% men instantly while the other remains unharmed. After that the actual melee starts, which seems to work properly. It's almost like the other cavalry unit is treated like an infantry unit. And also wedge formation is useless, it gives you no real bonuses when charging cavalry.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ghlight=charge

This is not the same as your previously reported Defenders Advantage Bug.

But I believe is the same problem you encountered earlier with the Body Guard and Great Guard losses, at the top of this thread.

Hoping for a fix in the next upgrade


As far as any current competition is concerned, both sides will be subject to the same bug.