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Thread: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

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    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    We all know that Thrace will be an interesting faction to play as in Historical Rome Total War.. But in 280 B.C. Thrace was going through a chaotic time..

    I have done some quick skim research on Thrace during our time period.. Just one year before our game begins Lysimachus was killed in the battle of Corupedium.. Now his Kingdom went briefly to Ptolemy II Ceraunus.. However before he was able to gain control of the kingdom he was killed when the Celts invaded..

    Ok, how are we going to set this up?

    First, I want to apologize for proposing that Thrace should be a "Barbarian Faction", I now realize they were a Hellenic Kingdom with many Thracian Tribes Surrounding it..

    So, now on to business..

    Who is the Leader of Thrace in our game?
    What is their starting position when we release beta?

    Also I believe some of you have proposed this but I will bring it up again..

    The Army should be composed mainly of Phalangites for heavy infantry.. lots of light skirmishers, for instance they skirmish but can also hold their own in melee.. light infantry similar to Bastarnae (even though they should have a different name than that) some warband troops.. and here is my propsal.. there were many tribes in the area so why not have Getai Spearmen etc. give a unit for each major tribe and use it for AOR.. I can add some cavalry in there as well maybe archers.. but im not a military historian (want to be) im just a guy who knows some basic stuff on each faction..

    Please, give your thoughts because every faction is equally important in our mod:)

    ***UPDATED 1/14/11***
    Once again Thrace is a question. I read through many books and came up with a solid answer..

    Lysimachus was killed in 281 BC, Ptolemy Ceraunus took over. Lysimachus' title of his Kingdom was "The Kingdom of Thrace-Macedonia" as he controlled both Kingdoms.

    So Ptolemy Ceraunus is essentially the Faction Leader.
    They would own
    Pella
    Thessalonica
    Lysimachia
    Smyrna
    Seutopolis
    and some others

    They would be a Hellenic Kingdom. However, what about the Thracians? Meaning the various tribes? Should we combine them with the Dacians or not? This will be one tough faction to deal with
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-14-2012 at 20:56.

  2. #2
    Member Member Caesar15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Well we should make them start the game with some really and stuff, like low public order

  3. #3
    Member Member Valkar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Bastarnae wasn't light infantry. It was heavy Shock infantry, made up from the Bastarnae tribe, Germanic guys with lots of foreign influences.
    For a base of the Thracian faction, i propose this unit pack: http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/f...9&tn=7976&st=9
    Altough i can create them more detailed and propably more historical accurate. But Subrosa did a very good job tough.

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    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Thracians are my favorit faction in vannila,mainly becouse the barbarico-civilized type of roster
    I think that Valkar is right and that we shoud use Subrosa's pack for alpha,but later I coud play around with thrace a bit....
    Also,I think we shoud give them companion cavalry.

  5. #5
    Member Member Valkar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I would be glad to help you with Thrace. Actually, Thrace was one of my favo vanilla faction, after Germania :D
    But we shouldn't give Thrace Hetairoi. The Hetairoi was a elite cavalry corpse composed of only macedonians. The Thracians must have Prodromoi, their own elite Light cavalry.
    For now:

    Falxmen
    Phalanx Pikeman (Pezhetairos)
    Levy pikeman
    Light Skimishers
    Elite (Arganian) Skirmishers
    Rompaioros (Thracian Shock Infantry)
    Prodromoi (Elite Light cavalry)
    Thracian Skirmish Cavalry)
    Thracian nobles.

  6. #6
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkar View Post
    I would be glad to help you with Thrace. Actually, Thrace was one of my favo vanilla faction, after Germania :D
    But we shouldn't give Thrace Hetairoi. The Hetairoi was a elite cavalry corpse composed of only macedonians. The Thracians must have Prodromoi, their own elite Light cavalry.
    For now:

    Falxmen
    Phalanx Pikeman (Pezhetairos)
    Levy pikeman
    Light Skimishers
    Elite (Arganian) Skirmishers
    Rompaioros (Thracian Shock Infantry)
    Prodromoi (Elite Light cavalry)
    Thracian Skirmish Cavalry)
    Thracian nobles.
    Good list,maybe we coud use my thracian peltast skin?

  7. #7
    Member Member Macedon1an's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I agree in using Subrosa's pack and giving them Prodromoi (the Macedonians need to use them too)... And I think that Thracian Skirmishers, Bastarnae, Agrianians should be in the AOR.

  8. #8
    Member Member Caesar15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Well were missing one thing, should we give them militia hoplites or warbands or some barboi-hoplite-milita?

  9. #9
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    good work valkar.. we will definitely use it in beta for sure.. ive tried to get a hold of Private Clark, Sub Rosa, and Andalus but they have been gone for some time.. I'm really impessed by thier skins.. we really only have two things left.. finish the reskins and change cultures..

  10. #10
    Member Member Valkar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I can make those skins to if u want.

  11. #11
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    well if they are downloadable its easier that way.. by the way I PMd you on TWC the other day.. did you get it?

  12. #12
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    UPDATED OP

  13. #13
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    What can i say...

    1. The celtic invasion STARTED in 280 BC! So, the thracians have a really hard time! Don't know how exactly are you thinking to make the invasions, it may just be a big gaul army in there made with a script.
    2. They came in a hard moment for the thracians - they just made it out of being Macedonian protectorate, they didn't had much of an army.
    3. If you want me to make the units then find me a single evidence that thracians used pikes. The ONLY real problem for the thracians was the constant lack of heavy infantry. They had heavy cavalry, they wore THE skirmishers on the Balkans - no one was that good. They had scithian influence, celtic influence and even somewhat german influence. They rocked. Why did they never made it to the top you'll ask? Easy answer - internal conflicts, and bad neighbors - first the macedonian kingdom, then the celts and in the end - the romans. One after another in less then 20 years between them. No one could stand against that!
    4. Thracian nobles wore strongly hellenized by the beginning of the 3rd century BC. But their population was still somewhat barbaric. If we keep the bosporians and don't add an new culture by that time, i personally will create a helenic/barbarian culture if i have to. (since we have two culture slots free i think i may start the research from now :D)

    that is it in a nutshell, i think. Oh, yeah, the King in that moment is: Raizdos. Who died (or was killed) 10 years after and Cotys III gained the throne.

  14. #14
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Should we make Thrace a Hellenic Kingdom but also can recruit native Thracian skirmishers? Meaning Macedonian units to represent the kingdom and skirmishers and cavalry to represent the later thracians? maybe we script in a reform or something? or give the player the option to stay hellenic or become more barbarian.. Bosporans and Thrace could share same culture slot

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    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Man, what can i say, that you understand at last. THEY HAD NO MACEDONIAN UNITS!
    Only the nobility, and mostly the high nobility was hellenized. They adopted GREEK equipment, meaning mostly leg protection, helmets, the hoplite spear (i have forgotten it's name), even muscular breastplate and lien armor. But again only the rich could afford that and there wasn't many rich thracians. That is the reson why they didn't have heavy infantry, excluding MAYBE some noble infantry regiments. And they fought in normal phalanx if they even used a trained formation.

    Yes, they had the fearsome romphaia-men (romphaia is the southern sister of the flax. the only real difference is that the romphaia is not curved) but they wore shock troops with no real protection. Just as vanilla flaxmen. Honestly thracians somewhat resembled the middle age europe in that way - everyone that had money was riding. You run away more easy on a horse. As i said - i haven't read a single piece of research that suggested that thracians had heavy infantry that they could amass. And certainly NO PHALANGITES!

  16. #16
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I do understand that, but what about the Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace??? What are we going to do with them? Rebels or what? It was still around after Lysimachus died. Ptolemy Ceraunus was in charge.. I'm talking about what we should do with them.. I know the Thracians didnt use phalangites :)

  17. #17
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    No such thing in my books. Only the odrissy kingdom, that was a THRACIAN kingdom with HELENIZED nobility. Where the hell did you read about the thracians?
    PS: If you ask about the Greek Colonies - they wore more insignificant than the 20+ minor thracian tribes that we know of. They wore there just to give people excuse to do war. (that last one is a joke. But in truth they didn't had any military strength and wore influenced by athens, macedon, thrace, or whoever had the upper hand in the constant struggle.
    Last edited by hameleona; 01-14-2012 at 22:41.

  18. #18
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Ah ok!! Well I give the break down as simply as I can. After Alexander died the Diadochi took over right? Well we all know about Ptolemy, and Seleucus, and Antigonus. But there was another, Lysimachus. When the empire was divided up, Lysimachus received Thrace. Anyways he minded his own business, allying with Ptolemy and Seleucus to defeat Usurpers to the Macedonian Throne, such as Demetrius. Around 285 BC he allied his "Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace" with Pyrrhus of Epirus, and went with a joint invasion of Demetrius and Macedon. Pyrrhus recieved some troops and western territories out of the deal, and Lysimachus received all of Macedon to add on to his current hellenistic kingdom, which included the majority of Thrace, except the northern more stubborn tribes, and some vital cities in Asia Minor.

    Well it gets complicated but he married Arsinoe 30 years before and they had 3 children. Arsinoe was the daughter of Ptolemy and the half sister of PTOLEMY CERAUNUS. He was a very sneaky man. Arsinoe wanted her sons to gain the throne after Lysimachu's death and teamed with Ceraunus (which means thunderbolt). They convince the old man Lysimachus that his oldest son, a Military genius and the faction heir named Agathocles was planning to take the throne. Lysimachus killed him. They then go to Seleucus and tell him that Lysimachus has gone mad, killing his own son. Seleucus then goes to face Lysimachus at the battle of Corupedium. There Seleucus killed Lysimachus face to face. Later that night (Ceraunus had was in Seleucus camp as an ally) Ceraunus kills Seleucus before he could cross over and take Macedon. Ptolemy Ceraunus then rushes like mad hell over to Lysimachea and crowns himself the King of the Kingdom of Thrace and Macedon. His realm included: All of Macedon, most of Thrace, and some key cities along te coast of Asia Minor. The date was 281 BC

    So hameleona, there you have it. This is what is keeping me from going forward. Thrace at the time of our mod was a Hellenic Kingdom that recruited Phalangites and other Macedonian troops. The Thracians were around, but they were only independent in their northern most holdings.

    HOWEVER, this Kingdom was short lived. Ptolemy Ceraunus was killed and beheaded by the Invading Celtic hordes (later Galatians and Tylis founders) so his Kingdom was lost, and the native Thracians regained their homeland from the Macedonians. (279 BC)

    I suggest we begin the game as Thrace being a hellenic kingdom, Ptolemy Ceraunus as the faction leader, but they have a horde of celts by Pella and Thessalonica.. A battle is inevitable. THE PLAYER would control Thraces destiny, and they should have the option to stay hellenic, or go back to Thracian roots. This is where the religion feature will come into effect! We can go into details later, and if you need sources for what i listed, I have tons of books supporting my statements and I'll gladly type out wor for word what they say
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-14-2012 at 23:08.

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    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    First o all, that is NOT Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace, this is Lysimachus Kingdom. Two totally different things. And he is dead in 280BC anyway. Why bother. Odrisse declared independence quickly after his death... only to be overrun by the celts, that droved them out for a while, and 60 years of wars later - thracians wore the sole rulers of thrace. And then the romans came...

    And further to kill the slightest theory, that such thing as hellenic kingdom of thrace existed - odryssian kings wore something of a vassals to Philip, Alexander and all the other after them.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seuthes_III
    Subjected... as strongly as the romans subjected the iberians. Hell, killing macedonians, greeks and... well, any other that may have some coins was the national sport of thrace.
    Last edited by hameleona; 01-14-2012 at 23:36.

  20. #20
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    So what do we do with Ptolemy Ceraunus and his kingdom?

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    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    he ruled macedonia and ptolemic kingdom or just macedon? Anyway - He did not rule thrace.

    But you know what? The period that you chose for starting date is great! In the middle of the wars. Good luck with getting it all done as it should be. That is what you get when you go for historical fanaticism.

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    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I rather do that though. If I didn't want to I would leave RTW the way it was.
    And it is a great date, so many things can come of it.

  23. #23
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    I understand the whole thing about wanting game play. But this is Historical Rome Total War. It's based off history. Yeah I'm a history fanatic and I'm proud that I am. I want this mod to be about history. If it affects the game play, I really don't care. I know in my own mind that game will not just take forever to play. I think Europa Barborum did a great job with their history, but just added so much realism that many people didn't like it. However EB is a huge mod! Look how many people love playing it? Same goes for RTR. I want HRTW to be similar to that but with it's own unique taste and by keeoing the vanilla feel. So yeah, with Thrace? I want it to come down to every historical detail, to show whoever plays this mod, what was happening at that time, and how would they alter the course of history? So yeah, History over game play. If I can't have both, I must choose one, and I choose History.

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    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Good Luck then. And farewell :)

  25. #25
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Thank you. I'm sorry that we never agree on anything.
    Anyways, back to business. Did some quick research and found this:
    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...eeceThrace.htm

    The Lysimachean Empire and Odrysian Kingdom co-existed with the Lysimachean Empire having authority.

    So this is what we should do for Thrace in a nutshell in 280 BC:
    Name: Thrace
    Culture:Helleno-Barbaric

    Essentially it would be a mixture of Macedonian and Thracian troops, the player could have two alternative routes to choose from. Whether it be a more hellenic path, or native Thracian path. It would be up to the player to decide. So there we have it, we can get into details later when we start making factions.

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    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Why don't we just call it -"The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace "...That sound good and it is historicaly acurrate...

    Culture is ok and so are the troops.

    A come on hameleona,don't give up on us ?

  27. #27
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    The problem with that, is it takes away from the hellenic aspect. That's why I propose Thrace. Unless we make two separate factions..

    OR we make Ptolemy Ceraunus and the hellenic Thracians, rebels and make a faction called The Odrysian Kingdom.. that wiould probably be easiest

  28. #28
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Would actually make more sense, since he was doomed. And since such thing as hellenic thracians (in the way you understand it) does not exist.

    PS: @Asgaroth - yes, i do. I'm done working on meaningless stuff, just cuz "it's historical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

  29. #29
    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    The confusion here is simply that you're using Thrace to mean two different things. ahowl11 has it right when he says that basically we have to decide which Thrace to represent.

    Predictably, I support the barbarian Thracians. :P I do not know the history of this area at all, but from what I've read here, it seems that they might be a more interesting faction. Plus, they more or less represent Bulgaria, which is in my opinion a plus. Why? Because then we appeal more to Bulgarian players! I'm pretty sure most Bulgarians would rather play as free barbarians than as slaves to the Greeks. The same argument goes for the Gauls, Germans, Britons, Dacians - rather than just having one tribe which stands for one or two regions, represent the whole people, and thereby appeal to more players from those areas today, wherever possible, since we could never accurately represent these peoples with a single tribe anyway.
    ~ Edorix
    Ancient Briton


  30. #30
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thrace - An Interesting Faction

    Well, the truth is, that ahowl, is just blindly following what the greek historians wrote for the time. Anyone, who have read a single text from greeks about thracians knows that they hated them. An yes, Lysimachus probably had them as a vassal state. But, well in one point of Bulgarian history, Simeon I called the great titeled himself as ruler of bulgarians and greeks. That does not meant that there was Bulgarian state of Byzantium. That is what i hate in the diadochi wars - everything we know is written by GREEKS!!! Some times we find evidence, that they wore not that much of something, and their rule was limited and with constant rebellions. That they didn't really ruled the territories they claimed. But no, "if its written it is true". And that is how "historical" mods are born.

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