Predictably, I support the barbarian Thracians. :P I do not know the history of this area at all, but from what I've read here, it seems that they might be a more interesting faction. Plus, they more or less represent Bulgaria, which is in my opinion a plus. Why? Because then we appeal more to Bulgarian players! I'm pretty sure most Bulgarians would rather play as free barbarians than as slaves to the Greeks. The same argument goes for the Gauls, Germans, Britons, Dacians - rather than just having one tribe which stands for one or two regions, represent the whole people, and thereby appeal to more players from those areas today, wherever possible, since we could never accurately represent these peoples with a single tribe anyway.
It is true...Hey but no Illyrians ?,who will be on the lands of Croatia ?
GO to the faction list thread and I believe most of you will be happy.
I will simply say this. Britons are in, Dacians are out,
Illyrians are in!
Thrace? Will be known as the Odrysian Kingdom... YA THAT"S RIGHT. I WAS WRONG. The kingdom actually co-existed and was really only allied with the Lysimachean Empire. They were basically independent. So yes we have an actual Thracian faction.
I hope everyone is finally happy with the factions.
One thing though. No Nabataeans. They simply were only herders and shepherds at this time
wait a minute. i'm going to give you a little piece of important info on the difference between the Thracian Peltast and Javelinmen. Firstly Peltasts were Light MELEE Infantry that threw javelins before charging. Most peltasts were armed with spears as a weapon for melee, but Elite and Mercenary Peltasts used swords (mostly machaira). Javelinmen were missile troops, they entered the fray rarely. A little later I'm going to post a lot more info on the Thracian armies, but not now as homework is calling me. :(
Well, i'm here just to help with this and that. Mostly, cuz it will help my own mod idea. I am a game-play guy - i don't see the meaning in making things 100% historical (should i say they CAN NOT BE 100%... maybe one can achieve 60 at best) and forgetting about game-play. So, i wont do the units as i did - quick and classy. I'm just the type of guy, that can not work on something that he does not like. And a mod with so many similar factions is not for me.
PS: TwoKnifes, Thracians INVENTED the peltast unit. I believe that i know my thracians, thanks. Have some quite good books by Fol (if you know the name) and once you go trough the tons of terms they give a lot of information. 10x anyway.
Ok, i didn't had much work tonight, so the first line of infantry - the tribal axemen.
Historical background about the two units till now:
Thracians are famous for many things, and not all of them pretty. Althou the Odrissy did got their ruling class hellenized quickly, the normal thracian did not adopt much of the greek ways. Most of the armies of the kingdom wore recruited from the subjected/allied tribes, that kept their way of life. And the most common way of fighting for them was the skirmish. Thracian peltast (both light and heavy, not that the ancients made a big difference between them) wore prized as the best on the Balkans, and (since we are talking about the greek sources) even in the whole world. With the development of the warfare, the tribal peltast lost part of their valor - heavier troops wore more efficient as skirmishers, and their low-tech spears had problems with the increasing armor of their more civilized enemies. Some tribes evolved, but most continued the old way of fighting - the pelta shield, several javelins and a knife or crude axe for melee fighting, and the typical cape of hard wool (that remained in use from the mountain (and not only) people in these lands until 18yh century AD) that kept them safe from low-velocity projectiles. Cheep troops with few good points - they had decent morale and wore masters of ambushes and hiding.
The huge amount of axes found in their lands speaks of wide military use of the weapon. So it is logical, that there was some sort of Axe-welding unit. And that is why i made the thracian axeman.
Sorry hameleona, I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant is that IN Thracian armies the javelinmen and peltasts were different units. Thracians used both. Also i do not doubt you knowledge about Thrace, so don't worry about that. However I shall post here all my knowledge about Thracian armies.
The main infantry in Thracian armies was the peltast. Before the fourth century BC, they were very lightly armored thus, looking almost the same as javeinmen. Back then they were different from the javelinmen only because they fought in melee. However in the fourth century BC Greeks and Macedonians started hiring them as mercenaries, because of their awesome fighting skills. Like that they were getting richer and richer, and they could buy better equipment. In the third century BC there were two "types" of peltasts; the heavy ones, which were the Elite Peltasts and the light ones, which were more common.
Heavy/Elite Peltasts :
They wore a mail shirt, had an oval light shield, were armed with two or three javelins, a shortsword, mostly with a machaira, or a long sword, a rhomphaia (similar to the falx, but a little bit shorter and less curved)
They looked like the one posted by hameleona. They used a spear in melee.
The other infantrymen of the Thracian armies, were warriors form the Bastarnae tribes. On how they looked like, I got no idea, unless if vanilla represents them correctly, which i highly doubt.
The main missile troops in Thracian armies were the javelinmen. Lightly armored, they wore a peltarion shield for protection. they were poor and couldn't afford quality equipment. For melee they used a knife. However when it came to javelin throwing they were very skilled, thus a needed component in Thracian armies. They look like the https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/im...a_vHkqkOSEjfWA the guy in the link
Yes, slingers were in Thracian armies. They were the poorest members though, and not used often. They did not carry a shield, but wore clothes made of the skin of a fox. Basically they look like velites with slings. They used daggers for melee.
Archers were not very common in Thracian armies. They were usually of Scythian/Sarmanitan origins. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?
img=Perseus:image:1992.11.0057 They looked like the ones in the image. Not very clear so I'll give you a short description. They used a composite bow, and a knife for melee. Their armor was made by leather and was typical Sarmantian armor. Sometimes made by humans skin, as it was a Sarmantian custom to get the skins of the dead enemies and use them as clothing.
Cavalry made up 40% (!) of the Thracian army. Most of the cavalry was light. Light cavalry before the 4th century BC had no shield, and had only two javelins and a spear for melee combat. However by the 4th century, they were hired as mercenaries by Alexander, and they became richer and could get better equipment. By the third century BC they had an oval shield, the two javelins, they used a long sword and sometimes a Sarissa. Light cavalry of the northern regions had bows, due to the influence of the Sarmantians. They look like Light Lancers/ Prodmoi with a shield and javelins.
Heavy cavalry was not common. The king and his bodyguard were heavy cavalry and were armored in Greek fashion before the 3rd century BC. However by the 3rd century BC they dressed up in more of a Thracian fashion. While they kept the Greek-like breast plates, they wore a Thracian helmet and used the peltarion shield or sometimes an oval shield. They used the kopis and a spear for melee.
That's all my information. It is not complete, and I'm sure that hameleona could complete it, but better safe than sorry.
Well almost the same thing as i know. We just had a difference with the peltast. So, sorry, for my arrogance.
Actually, since we make the odryssian kingdom, they did have a lot of hellenic influence - even had small amounts of hoplites. Also the Romphaia units, and the swordsmen. And since they had a lot of skirmishing units - there will be a lot of javelin infantry. Also, with the March of Time, they will get a cohort unit (they did adopt roman equipment quickly - probably cuz it suited their way of combat nicely). Also, the peltast i have posted above is the tribal peltast, so an lightly armored one (helmet and leg protection) will be made soon (tomorrow, i'm home from a birthday party now :lol:), also they did use slings A LOT! Weren't the best slingers, but a decent ones.
They had heavy cavalry too, but i don't really know, how ahowl will go with the odrissy. Getai are famost for their Scythian influence, probably even kinship, and the odrissy did take over the south Getic tribes in some point (quite probably even over the north ones) so i'll be doing an horse archer too. And heavy cavalry. I don't know if i should make another unit of javrlin cavalry - the greek one suits them fine, but no one knows.
Ok, i may lose a little of the flow of words, so, i'll just post what i'll do:
Tire 0: Tribal Peltast
Tire 1: Tribal Axemen.
Tire 2: Thracian Swordsmen (mahaira, shield and some armor)/Thracian Cohort (legionaries. Replaces the Swordsmen after the Marian reforms)
Tire 3: Romphaia Welders (flax men, but maybe with some basic armor)
Tire 4: Nobles (basically a hoplite unit)
Tire 5: nothing
Tire 1: Thracian peltast (the one from TwoKnifes picture)
Tire 2: Thracian slingers (vanilla, reskined), Thracian Archers
Tire 3: Heavy peltasts (vanilla)
Tire 4: Still considering. Maybe another peltast or archer unit.
It's ok hameleona and happy birthday!! Now let's go with the roster:
Tier 0: Light/Tribal Peltast (Tribal sounds cooler) Weakest unit, looks like the one hameleona made, has a spear, so it is good against cavalry, it was so even in real life as they were combined with cavalry often to defeat the enemy cavalry, but weak vs infantry especially the heavy ones. Good ambushers, so they get a bonus in woods. Lightly armored so missiles will slaughter them, unless they are attacked by the shield side or the front. They throw the javelins before charging.
Tier 1: Tribal Axemen Stronger unit, but weak vs cavalry, average vs infantry. They are good ambushers too (most light infantryman are so is it really needed to point it out) so they get bonus in woods. Missiles have the same effect on them like with the Tribal Peltast.
Tier 2: Rhomphaia wielders/ Rhomphaiamen Basically similar to the falxmen, but don't have a very big bonus vs cavalry as the rhomphaia was shorter. Still average vs cavalry average vs infantry. Missiles cut these down though since they don't even have a shield
Tier 3: Heavy Peltasts Armored with a mail shirt, peltarion or oval shield (add whichever to them, it will be accurate in both cases) machaira and two javelins which they throw before the charge. They are average vs cavalry (due to the lack of spear) and strong vs infantry. Due to their heavy armor missiles have a harder time on killing them.
Tier 4: Foot Nobles/Hoplites and Legionary like Thracian unit after reforms if any
Tier 5: nothing
Tier 1 : Slingers this was a hard decision. Although javelinmen were richer, they were more common than slingers thus easier to recruit. However I decided to make slingers tier 1 since it would shame the reputation of the javelinman among the Thracians. Oh and slinger projectiles should be armor piercing. I have made a sling myself (which is not a very good one) and it can make a hole in a piece of wood or rock that is like 50-100 meters away. Rome used auxiliary slingers to fight cataphracts because there was no other way to kill them in long range distances (except artillery which slowed armies down and was expensive). However their accuracy is horrible.
Tier 2: Javelinmen Now if we do not include the fact that javelinmen were short range, their spears hurt a lot more than arrows. Also they should be better than archers in melee because since they threw their missiles from a shorter distance they got in melee fights more often. Their accuracy is not that good though.
Tier 3: Archers Although as i pointed out earlier in some ways slingers and javelinmen, overall they were still better. So tier 3 for them.
Tier 4: Nothing
Tier 1: Greek Cavalry
Tier 2: Thracian Cavalry Basically Light Lancers with shields and and javelins.
Well, ahowl, why use them, when i can make better? (yeah, i'm a show-off, i know)
TwoKnifes - Romphaia is shorter, mostly cuzz of the shorter grip. Or that is what historians in my country think. But we have not a single grip that survived the time, so - it can be shorter.
Some things, tho:
Vanilla treats peltast and javelinmen the same way, so they should be in the Ranged MIC. That is why i have made Thracian Swodsmen. ;)
Thracians quickly adopted roman arms and armor and even fighting stile. Not to mention, that by that time, the odrissy kingdom was much more of a kingdom, than of a tribal league. So i think they should be in the middle, not in the top of the units. :)
PS: Peltast by a definition is a skirmishing unit, that throws spears and is able to fight in melee. First peltast in the Balkans wore the thracians and they used spears, yes. (reminder - to remove the knife of the tribal peltast and to add spear). The problem with classifying them is from the moment (around Alexanders time and after), when Greeks started calling every mercenary unit "peltast".
@hameleona Nice unit. It looks pretty cool. But, for the sake of game-play (and a little bit of the historical accuracy) i say we put the peltasts in the infantry category. You may ask why did i add the "historical accuracy part". Because although when peltasts were hired by the Greeks they main role was skirmishing until the 2nd century BC, in their own armies they played the role of melee infantry. So to represent them correctly we should make them work like the legionaries: