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Thread: Units That Must Be Omitted

  1. #1
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Units That Must Be Omitted

    Here is a list of units in RTW that I believe must be omitted from the game to free up space for newer units.. if any of you disagree or think I left out any units please post below

    Arcani
    Incendiary Pigs
    Wardogs
    Desert Axemen
    Nile Spearmen
    Pharaoh's Guard
    Pharaoh's Bowmen
    Desert Cavalry
    Nile Cavalry
    Egyptian Chariots
    Egyptian Cavalry General
    Egyptian Chariot General
    Egyptian Chariot Archers
    Onagers
    Heavy Onagers
    Ballistas
    Repeating Ballistas
    Scorpions
    Druids
    Screeching Women
    Beserkers
    Night Raiders
    Head Hurlers
    Head Hunting Maidens
    Scythian Noble Women
    Bull Warriors

    Also I believe Peasants and Gladiators should be for Rebels only (for revolts)

  2. #2
    Member Member Daco-Roman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    So are you positive from historical research that non of these units existed?

  3. #3
    Member Member Macedon1an's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    In my opinion these unit need to stay:

    -Ballistas
    -Desert Axemen can be used as Egyptian Natives in the AOR with lowered stats
    -Scorpions
    -Night Raiders
    -Beserkers - maybe change the name, but Germania needs to have big blood-thirsty fanatical warriors
    -Bull Warriors - change the name, they represent the elite warriors of the Iberians

  4. #4
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    I got alot of it from the orgs wiki page.. and i'll post it.. but most of these units were long gone (egyptians) or rarely used (wardogs)

    Some of the units are ahistorical as well. The arcani, portrayed as in the game as heavily armoured pseudo-ninjas, are probably based on a group of agents provocateurs and spies known as areani in Roman Britain hundreds of years after the game takes place. Also, units of the Roman army such as the Urban Cohort and Praetorian Cohort are much more widely used for combat in the game than they ever were in the Roman Republic or Empire.
    The Romans are not the only factions with ahistorical units. Druids, like those used in-game by the Barbarians, were in fact excused from military service in Celtic culture, being vital to the operation of organized village life.<ref>Goldsworthy, Adrian Caeser: The Life of a Colossus p. 242</ref> A totally invented unit is the British Head Hurlers, who hurl decapitated heads coated in quicklime. Severed heads were a valuable trophy in Celtic culture, and would never have been used as ammunition. The phalanx formation which the Germans employ in the game is also ahistorical, since Roman authors are emphatic that the only military formation employed by the Germani was the wedge, and the idea of pikes as Germanic weapons is contradicted by archeology as well as Tacitus (Germania Ch.6). The huge armored war elephants with howdahs, although perhaps the most spectacular unit in the game, were never used by Carthage; historic sources and depictions on coins all document small (perhaps 2.5 m/8.35 ft at the shoulder) North African Elephants with only a mahout. Also, the Bull Warriors of Spain did not exist.
    The Egyptian military and culture is heavily influenced by the ancient Egypt of the New Kingdom than that of the Ptolemaic Egypt. Culture would have been of a Greek style with soldiers being identical to those of the other Diadochi and Macedonia.
    Some units, such as wardogs and flaming pigs, were used on rare occasions, but not to the extent with which they can be used within the game. Also, Berserkers were not around during the time setting of the game. Berserkers were only used by the Vikings during the Viking Age, although they may represent some of the more ferocious Germanic tribes.
    Furthermore the Macedonian "Royal Pikemen" are depicted wearing a shield with a lambda upon it. In fact the Spartans wore the lambda on their shield as it stands for the region Laconia where they came from. The Macedonian faction emblem also has a lambda upon it.

  5. #5
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Ummm...Yeah it's true that heads where thropys in celtic culture BUT some british warriors whoud take a few heads with them and throw them at the enemy...

  6. #6
    Member Member Macedon1an's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull View Post
    Ummm...Yeah it's true that heads where thropys in celtic culture BUT some british warriors whoud take a few heads with them and throw them at the enemy...
    We could make some of the Briton units throw a head just before charge...like the Romans with the pilums...

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    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Macedon1an View Post
    We could make some of the Briton units throw a head just before charge...like the Romans with the pilums...
    Yeah...Good ieda...

  8. #8
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quick note, Onagers were used by the Romans

    Nicknamed wild asses because of the way they worked

  9. #9

    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Dacian axe men yes i'm on the side of valkar

  10. #10
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharoah View Post
    Dacian axe men yes i'm on the side of valkar
    See Daco-romans history of Dacia...

  11. #11
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanker View Post
    Quick note, Onagers were used by the Romans

    Nicknamed wild asses because of the way they worked
    Where do they fit in your description of the roman military system?

  12. #12
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    Where do they fit in your description of the roman military system?
    Well I updated the Roman Military description in the Historian thread, and there is a small part on onagers now.

    An example of onagers being mentioned would be at the siege of Masada, where they were going to be used except the defenses were too high.

  13. #13
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    i say get rid of them as they were not widely used

  14. #14
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ahowl11 View Post
    i say get rid of them as they were not widely used
    I guess. There are far more mentions of Ballisatas than onagers.

    Maybe we can make them a "siege only" weapon?

  15. #15
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    thats an idea but i dont know if it would work.. check your profile at TWC

  16. #16
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanker View Post
    I guess. There are far more mentions of Ballisatas than onagers.

    Maybe we can make them a "siege only" weapon?
    I doubt that will work. Unlike the other siege only equipment, onagers need a special crew - so basically, even if you get them to siege only equipment (which could be quite hard, if not impossible), you could just use them if you got a normal siege weapon
    in your army - its crew could shoot they own equipment empty first, then go to the onagers. But I am not certain if that works with crew of different siege equipment. So, thats not a sollution.

    We could make 1 type of ballista firing greater shots with more power.

  17. #17
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    i think its easier to just get rid of them guys.. lets get it done

  18. #18
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    I doubt that will work. Unlike the other siege only equipment, onagers need a special crew - so basically, even if you get them to siege only equipment (which could be quite hard, if not impossible), you could just use them if you got a normal siege weapon
    in your army - its crew could shoot they own equipment empty first, then go to the onagers. But I am not certain if that works with crew of different siege equipment. So, thats not a sollution.

    We could make 1 type of ballista firing greater shots with more power.
    That's true,

    And I think the regular ballista was the most powerful. There were also Scorpio-Ballistas (which were smaller) and the torsion Oxybelles (also smaller). However I think we should only have 1 maybe 2 types of Ballista.


    Ahowl's suggestion of removing Onagers is the best

    If we get rid of them, maybe the AI will put some proper troops in replacement. (in RTW, there were too many stacks of onagers and light troops)

  19. #19
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanker View Post

    If we get rid of them, maybe the AI will put some proper troops in replacement. (in RTW, there were too many stacks of onagers and light troops)
    I realy never fought an army with more than 1 onager, and even those were absolutely rare.

  20. #20
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    but the ai always fights with them

  21. #21
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    I realy never fought an army with more than 1 onager, and even those were absolutely rare.
    Perhaps I'm getting confused with Medieval 2 Total War?

    In any case, Ahowl is probably right in removing these units

  22. #22
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Removed.
    Last edited by Magneto; 08-16-2011 at 20:07.

  23. #23
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by merry View Post
    Agree to omit them.
    Hmm? I donīt understand.

  24. #24
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Ok. That was pretty weird now.

    Iīve implented the archer texture of carthage, but wasnīt sure it works. I make a custom battle with them, press Start Battle,
    and everything went BLACK! In my whole house the electricy was gone!!! I was like "WTF!" But after a few seconds it was back again. Never was so happy about having a notebook, so I didnīt lost anything. Iīm going to upload the current version of the files, just in case.
    Desktop.7z
    Itīs called desktop, but it is a zip-archive of my current work. Iīll keep it updated.
    Last edited by Magneto; 08-16-2011 at 09:22.

  25. #25
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    Hmm? I donīt understand.
    Is merry a team member? His only other post seems to flog a screencapture program.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  26. #26
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Is merry a team member? His only other post seems to flog a screencapture program.
    I donīt know, Iīm a new team member myself. And my post was just, that I didnīt know what he meant.

  27. #27
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    For the Ballistas issue.

    I say we keep the Ballista for now and remove the rest to streamline the siege artillery.

    And the repeating Ballista did apparently exist

  28. #28
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanker View Post
    For the Ballistas issue.

    I say we keep the Ballista for now and remove the rest to streamline the siege artillery.

    And the repeating Ballista did apparently exist
    Keeping Ballistas and repeating ones, remove all the rest - Done!

  29. #29
    Member Member Macedon1an's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
    Keeping Ballistas and repeating ones, remove all the rest - Done!
    Scorpions?

  30. #30
    Member Member Magneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units That Must Be Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Macedon1an View Post
    Scorpions?
    Ah well, I can implent them back in in a minute, so they arenīt gone forever - but at least for the alpha I make that way now.

    I just made a battle: Macedionian Pike Phalanx against Egypt ones:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	pike_phalanx.png 
Views:	101 
Size:	3.74 MB 
ID:	1881
    Look at the shields - pretty small. I highly doubt that they would have been of any use in a battle.
    Last edited by Magneto; 08-16-2011 at 16:59.

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