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Thread: Food for thought for our future versions

  1. #1

    Default Food for thought for our future versions

    I'm sure many of you have read this but read carefully.. alot of this is true.. How can we implement these concepts into HRTW??


    Historical Inaccuracies Of Rome Total War

    The three playable Roman factions are named after three of the most notable Roman figures, Gaius Julius Caesar, Marcus Junius Brutus, and Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. There were no "Scipii" or "Brutii" families. Both were cognomina - a third name that labeled one as a member of a specific family within a larger clan. The family of Marcus Junius Brutus would have been the "Junii", while Scipio Africanus would have belonged to the "Cornelii." (NOTE: Sometimes a family had also been named after the cognomen of a famous family member. For example, the form "Scipiadae" would be plausible (cf. Vergilius Aeneis VI. 843). This stratification into specific families is difficult, however, since during the Republic there were so few noble Roman families, and they were constantly intermarrying. See Roman Naming Convention for more information.

    The three-faction Roman system in the game is entirely ahistorical. In fact, the Roman Republic was ruled exclusively by the Senate, which had substantially more power than is reflected in the game, and the various assemblies. Individual families might rule small provinces, but expansions to the empire would have been assigned to new governors, not left to the generals who conquered them. Generals, too, were selected by the Senate and assemblies, and the roles of governorship and generalship were not as conflated as they are in the game. There were cases where influential politicians such as Julius Caesar could quite possibly serve as both generals and governors, but they would only occur during the later Republic.

    The primary reason for the three-faction system is to simulate the civil war that ultimately resulted in the end of the Roman Republic. Furthermore, while the Julii may in some ways be said to be Imperialists because Julius Caesar became the first dictator perpetuus, the precursor to the modern understanding of Roman Emperor, Brutus was thoroughly Republican and is in fact famous for having killed Julius Caesar after he was granted absolute power through the office of dictator perpetuus by the Senate; and theoretically speaking, the family of Brutus would not have imperial ambitions anyway.

    In addition, although perhaps more trivially, the names are declined incorrectly. While the plural of Julius is indeed Julii, the plural of Brutus is Bruti, not Brutii. Likewise, the plural of Scipio is Scipiones, instead of Scipii. Latin words are, in general, wholly or partially Anglicized in pronunciation; velites (Classical Latin Template:IPA) is pronounced Template:IPA instead of the expected Template:IPA (compare the ending sounds of the English word indices). Similarly, the C in principes is pronounced as a hard Template:IPA as in Classical Latin instead of the Template:IPA expected for English. See Latin declension and Latin pronunciation.

    As for the Hellenic factions in diplomacy, if they accept an unreasonable offer, they are reported to say "it may shame a Helot". In fact the only faction that have a connection with these Helots are the Greek Cities, because the Spartans enslaved Messenia and its inhabitants, the Helots. So other Hellenic factions such as Macedon, Thrace, the Seleucid Empire should not speak of these Helots, but perhaps of other minorities in their own respective realms.

    One of the key events of the game for the Roman factions is the Marian Reforms, instigated by Gaius Marius. Although the events and details of the reforms are not themselves inaccurate, the reforms do not usually occur in 107 B.C., as in history, but instead often occur over 100 years earlier, as the date of the reforms is not hard-coded in the game, but is instead dependent upon other factors. Note that if the reforms occurred at 107 B.C. in game, it would leave a relatively small amount of game-time to actually take advantage of the new troops, before the game ends in 14 A.D. In reality, the reforms changed the structuring of the Roman army, and the land qualifications required to sign up. Within the game, the reforms unlock the more elite troops of the Roman factions, for example the Legionary Cohorts and Urban Cohorts. The post-reform troops are also portrayed as wearing much more armor than troops of the era actually wore.

    Some of the units are ahistorical as well. The arcani, portrayed as in the game as heavily armoured pseudo-ninjas, are probably based on a group of agents provocateurs and spies known as areani in Roman Britain hundreds of years after the game takes place. Also, units of the Roman army such as the Urban Cohort and Praetorian Cohort are much more widely used for combat in the game than they ever were in the Roman Republic or Empire.

    The Romans are not the only factions with ahistorical units. Druids, like those used in-game by the Barbarians, were in fact excused from military service in Celtic culture, being vital to the operation of organized village life.<ref>Goldsworthy, Adrian Caeser: The Life of a Colossus p. 242</ref> A totally invented unit is the British Head Hurlers, who hurl decapitated heads coated in quicklime. Severed heads were a valuable trophy in Celtic culture, and would never have been used as ammunition. The phalanx formation which the Germans employ in the game is also ahistorical, since Roman authors are emphatic that the only military formation employed by the Germani was the wedge, and the idea of pikes as Germanic weapons is contradicted by archeology as well as Tacitus (Germania Ch.6). The huge armored war elephants with howdahs, although perhaps the most spectacular unit in the game, were never used by Carthage; historic sources and depictions on coins all document small (perhaps 2.5 m/8.35 ft at the shoulder) North African Elephants with only a mahout. Also, the Bull Warriors of Spain did not exist.

    The Egyptian military and culture is heavily influenced by the ancient Egypt of the New Kingdom than that of the Ptolemaic Egypt. Culture would have been of a Greek style with soldiers being identical to those of the other Diadochi and Macedonia.

    Some units, such as wardogs and flaming pigs, were used on rare occasions, but not to the extent with which they can be used within the game. Also, Berserkers were not around during the time setting of the game. Berserkers were only used by the Vikings during the Viking Age, although they may represent some of the more ferocious Germanic tribes.

    Furthermore the Macedonian "Royal Pikemen" are depicted wearing a shield with a lambda upon it. In fact the Spartans wore the lambda on their shield as it stands for the region Laconia where they came from. The Macedonian faction emblem also has a lambda upon it.

    As for character names, some Roman characters (including captains) are named Augustus. In fact this title as a cognomen was first held by Caesar Augustus and the following emperors, but it did not actually represent any sort of constitutional office until the 3rd century under Diocletian. Besides, the title surely wasn't held by any lesser men such as regular family members and military officers.

    Some settlements on the steppes are named after the tribe that lived there, for example Tribus Getae, are wrongly entitled with "Tribus". This word is the etymon of the word tribunus, which has the meaning of a tribune, and was a title shared by 2–3 elected magistracies and other governmental and/or (para)military offices of the Roman Republic and Empire. They represented certain groups of the Republic, such as the people (tribunus plebis) and the military (tribunes militium). If the Romans wanted to label a settlement according to the tribe living there, they would do so by using genus. The same for settlements labeled with locus, meaning place in Latin.

    Since they were easy prey for close combat units, the velites did not form their own line; maniples of hastati and principes had a certain number of velites assigned to them, and they came under the command of the centurions of these units with roughly 80 velites per maniple respectively. The triarii, however, did not have them since they fought right at the back away from the front line. In this sense, despite not being part of the main formation, they were regular soldiers. Besides that, the triarii fought in a phalanx formation.

    The faction known as 'Gaul' was not united in real life as it is in the game. There were many different Gallic tribes in the area collectively known as Gaul. Many of these tribes were actively unfriendly and even sometimes engaged in warfare.

    The Seleucid Empire's boundaries are wrongly depicted, due to map restrictions. Holding the majority of Alexander's conquests, the empire should extend much further east, and should not be nearly as weak as it is in the game.

    The faction known as "Spain" did not exist, as Spain was not a single unified tribe. Furthermore, the name Spain was not around at the time. Iberia would be the preferable term.

    The factions known as "Brittania" and "Germania" were not unified factions, but instead many individual tribes.

    The Scythians should not be a faction, as their power was on the decline. At the time, the Samartians controlled that territory.

    The units are too colorful for the time period, as dyes were expensive. Units should be more realistic browns and grays.

    The faction "Numidia" should be two factions, as there were two major Numidian tribes at the time.

    The faction "The Greek Cities" presumably refers to an alliance of the city-states Sparta, Athens, and Rhodes at the time. Therefore, this faction should have control of Athens at the start of the game, and should not control Syracuse or Pergamum.

    The recruitment system of the game is flawed. Roman players can produce many Urban and Praetorian cohorts in the late game, even in newly conquered territory in the Sahara. Civilizations would only be able to recruit their own units in their home territories.
    Also check out this link:

    http://www.allempires.com/article/in...Rome_Total_War
    Last edited by ahowl11; 08-08-2011 at 08:05.

  2. #2
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Food for thought for our future versions

    You mean food?
    Traits and Axiliaryes{???}?
    I think there is a tutrorial somewhere on TWC...
    Last edited by Skull; 08-08-2011 at 14:46. Reason: To bring down a gate with the RAM
    When the camel {S}thinks,it is time to leave the oassis!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Food for thought for our future versions

    If we want this to be as historical as possible then i suggest making this a sub mod for EB.I mean common,how will you make some factions little scaterred tribes?
    only unless we make it as the EB engine is made.Like making different buildings rise the level of authority you have over the other tribes..sure its a lot of scipting..but is worth it

  4. #4

    Default Re: Food for thought for our future versions

    No I do not want this to be like EB.. I have an idea about the tribes.. RS2's rebel/free people system is great.. Making the Britons into a bunch of other peoples.. we should do that with the barbarians.. the gauls could essentially be a bunch of different tribes that attack each other etc.. it would be for later versions but it is an idea

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