MM Money Cheat 18K+ Army

[SirNateofWessex]

With regards to 2 threads:

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ow-Moneycheat-
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post10122023

there is someone with a 18k+ army out there that was built post patch 2.0 As of this writing, the .replay file is on the .net page and my spreadsheet detailing the cost of the units is in the .com page. I was able to perfectly recreate the army and cost of every stat and it came out 18K+ If I am allowed to post the replay and spreadsheet here, I will. The army was created post patch 2.0 and no exploits of the veteran unit system was used. Just a full 20 unit army that costs too much.

Please Note: I do not work for Creative Assembly or Sega.

https://www.youtube.com/user/itsmymillertime
Latest Video: #213 2v2 MP Land Shogun 2 Commentary
Added: August 12, 2011

[Tomisama]

My 3 star army at 14k.



His 10 star army at 14k.



Is this a cheat?

Could he really have had 10 (out of 16) maxed out units (including his Gen and a GG) for that price?

Or does it just look bad?

[AggonyKing]

can't really tell from the pics, requires replay ^^

[Tomisama]

Don't want to make opponent's name public, as I am not accusing this guy of cheating.

I am just wondering about what seemed like a very unfair MM battle (which I almost never play)

But if you will send me an emal, I will send you the replay.

tomisama@hotmail.com

[RTKAbu]

Funny, so you hardly even tested avatar mode before you decided cwc to go for the classic mode, dubious. But yes, its probably a money cheat although i cant see, you should check the box in the options menu so you can see the stats of units, if most of his units are heavily upgraded, which means alot of vet upgrades, its probably a cheat.

[Tomisama]

Funny, so you hardly even tested avatar mode before you decided cwc to go for the classic mode, dubious. But yes, its probably a money cheat although i cant see, you should check the box in the options menu so you can see the stats of units, if most of his units are heavily upgraded, which means alot of vet upgrades, its probably a cheat.

How much do you have to test to know that a game is broken, subject to bugs and cheats, and not suitable for legitimate competition (a situation that has not improved I might add) ?

Yes, there are ten units upgraded (maxed-out) out of the sixteen, and it looks like a cheat.

The thing is, I really don't think that it is, and that is the point of my posting.

[Tomisama]

Well, the best of my ability to reconstruct both sides yielded some pretty strong evidence.

The estimated* cost of his army was 15,984, and mine was 13,250.

My low total was due to being old and slow, and having the game start before I got the last unit in.

But his high had to be the result of some kind of cheat, as it was a 14k game.

I had two MM games that day with players with what I believed were over amped armies.

I won’t be playing any more Avatar games until this thing is fixed…


* I don’t have access to adjustable upgrades except in Classic, and there are no loan swords in Classic, so had to sub units with same 400 koku base.

[Tsavong]

Was his army mostly ashigaru? He could be using both discount retainers that would save a of money for him, also just because his units have the flags as high level units it dose not mean he has spent the upgrade points so there cost might not be as high as you think.

[Tomisama]

Was his army mostly ashigaru? He could be using both discount retainers that would save a of money for him, also just because his units have the flags as high level units it dose not mean he has spent the upgrade points so there cost might not be as high as you think.

This is something I do understand, and why I said:

Yes, there are ten units upgraded (maxed-out) out of the sixteen, and it looks like a cheat.

The thing is, I really don't think that it is, and that is the point of my posting.

I am kind of playing the devils advocate in my red letter numbers post, to try to stir up a dialog on the subject

To continue my stirring:

But no matter how much he actually paid for his army, is not the fighting value of that army on the battlefield, the same as represented by the troops on that field?

[Tomisama]

Ok, so I’m not going to get a response in this direction.

I will just finish this up my self.

The current match-making system that competitive multiplayer is based on; is self destructive (read broken).

To allow matches between ten star players, with all available unlocks and price advantages, to trounce all over players less availability achievement status, will eventually (if it has not already) destroy the player base.

Community-building player competition must have a common denominator for all combatants (read koku). Greater achievement perks of more troop type choices with special and enhanced skills, is a great motivator to play more games. But valid battle for map conquest must be between participants with armies of equal value, to have any true value. The contest must be one of skill, not time in-grade, if the hope of success is to be maintained for people new to the game.

I have heard all of the arguments, inequality being historically supported, the lie that the value of the armies “is” maintained in match-made battles, and the cuff about after everyone reaches a certain level that it is all the same anyway. Although there is a certain amount of truth in all of these (even if only intention in design), the whole truth is that it destroys the game community.

The evidence may not be readily apparent in the statistics. The problem being that you must have the intention of finding how many players leave multiplayer, not just how many are now playing. The second may look good, but may have looked a whole lot better if the contesting was provably fair, with visible cost totals, and true dollar amount limits.

I know that this will be “bla bla bla” to many players, more especially to those who are already of top achievement, who currently are enjoying the killing-fields slaughter of the lesser achieved. And this message may no go beyond the ears of the developers who are already having to deal with coming up with the next game. But I believe it had to be said.

Hopefully the Raise of the Samurai expansion will already have taken some of these things into consideration (*crosses fingers*). But in any event, keep the faith, and thank you for reading this far

[Jochi Khan]

Tomisama I have to agree with all of your sentiments.

I also believe that the game is being 'killed off' as far as MP is concerned.

Just look at the Battle List every evening (UK time) and see the number of games that are now putting restrictions on the star level of player that can join.
The 'new' or 'lower level' players, I believe, are getting fed up with the so called 'top level' 10 star players advantages in the game with vets, upgrades etc. which are easily obtainable with 'farming' as it is called, friendly games amongst friends and clan members to boost the levels.

Can you honestly see Rise of the Samurai expansion altering any of this?

[Tomisama]

Can you honestly see Rise of the Samurai expansion altering any of this?

Yes btw, I have also noticed a number of restricted games starting to show up. Too bad we can’t make those conditions for our match-made battles for our selves as well.

As far a Rise changing match-making, the complaints have been made and hopefully heard, and since the new expansion will be on a different map (400 years earlier), there is the chance that there may be some revisions in the way things are done, at least for the new map contest.

That is if there is one!

All that is known for sure is that there will be new single player and co-op campaigns, and multiplayers will have the new era’s units to do battle with.

If there is a new multiplayer map and leaderboard for the era, there is at least a chance for better match-making

[Tomisama]

Ok, well Alphy reviewed my battle and has confirmed that he believes also that my opponent was not cheating. That via retainers available to his level, he was able to field an army worth about 2000 koku more that I was. Thanks Alphy!

So it was basically an impossible situation, with a player of the experience needed to acquire the benefit 2k in upgrades, to be pit against me without that advantage, and for him to have that advantage too (besides his experience).

I am just posting this for clarity. This situation is not fair, and if anyone would have suggested an unbalanced game like this for any of the proceeding Total War era games, the community would have raised the roof, and demanded a return to balanced competition.

But because it is hidden in the bling-screen of retainers and tokens that coerces you to become a partner in what is a “legal” cheat, the masses happily suck it up and fall prey to this pyramid scheme of a game.

I will have to stick to Classic Battles I guess, or maybe just return to some older games. I very much enjoyed playing Empire, and had the most fun of all of the TW series with Napoleon.

Maybe I will see you there

[Risasi]

It saddens me to hear this news. I was hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. I have purposely refrained from purchasing S2TW because I feared there would be something like this which would crop up. I still might purchase it in perhaps another year. Maybe by then it will be patched, but I'll buy it with realistic expectations - only to play SP and be satisfied at that.

I will continue to play MP mostly with friends I know in person, and generally in an "offline" mode, via Hamachi and their ilk. I don't know about the rest of you, but my online experience has lacked in quality for years now.

Who knows, perhaps by 2013 they will have it patched well enough to play MP, the die-hards (who are generally more honorable than the standard rabble) will stick around and it will be decent to play.

[Nigel]

The following information about what the new patch will bring was posted by Craig TW

Originally Posted by CraigTW

Moving on to other things, we’ve noticed a lot of people have been hitting the level 10 ceiling in the avatar conquest mode. With that in mind, we’re introducing a new “prestige” system. In short, this means if you reach level 10, you can be promoted to a new Prestige rank and re-play the conquest mode.


Coloured stars are used to define the level of Prestige you’re at – Bronze, Silver and Gold. Upon promotion to a new Prestige level, the avatar’s skill-tree is reset, but his units retain their veterancy. He also keeps retainers gained through armour pieces and random drops, as well as clan tokens. Each time you level up in Prestige tier you’ll unlock 10 retainer slots.


Each level will take more XP to gain (and your avatar will cost slightly more), so the Prestige system is really designed to sort the men (and ladies) from the boys (and girls). In addition to that, we’ve reworked the matchmaking system so it now prioritises avatar rank when deciding opponents. It will still take ELO rating into account, too.


We’ve also rebalanced some of the units, including matchlocks and loan swords. As well as that we’ve had a look at rebalancing 16 of the retainers, so we’ve been fairly busy there.


And perhaps the most interesting nugget – I’ve seen the provisional full patch notes for this coming update and they’re huge. We haven’t committed to a release date for the patch and DLC yet, but keep your eyes peeled in September.


And that’s all for this week!


Thanks,

CraigTW

Note that they are reworking the matchmaking system so it now prioritises avatar rank when deciding opponents.
So that is one bit of good news.


Oh and Risasi, how do you play with friends in an "offline" mode, via Hamachi ?
That sounds very interesting and I may like to try it out.

[Tomisama]

I am glad that they are doing all of the above, things are moving in the right direction.

And not diminish that at all; but has it occurred to anyone yet that having a gold level 10 with a full house of vets to choose from, pretty much places you in the same situation as playing straight Classic from the gate?

In fact I think Classic gives you more choices, when you consider you can choose any unit you want in any strength you want, and reconfigure all of that any way you want, for every battle you fight. And you don’t have to play for months to achieve that ability.

That will still have to be the path for me, as time and energy are in short supply these days.

But still a sincere Grand Salute to all of the hard working warriors at Creative Assembly.

May your avatars go condo

[Tomisama]

After more thought, I have to counter my own words on this.

Because Classic Battles has been relocated to the back-burner, there are very few players available.

And “if” the new match-made proves to provide better competitive balance matches, it actually might serve the needs of casual players (like me) better.

Old dogs and new tricks, well see

Good Luck All!

[RTKAbu]

People always told me old dogs could not learn new tricks

Lets hope they fixes the many MM bugs and balance issues, as the options in avatar mode are way bigger.

[AMP]

I overlooked this post... was shocked to see someone who's been around so long claiming "cheat". It's easy to iron out the facts that vets show rank regardless if they have the skill points spent on them or not. Someone could have all v9 army and have not one of his vets with a skill point spent on them and having unit info always on helps to see this, it doesn't show everything but helps. Not only that you can read the description of retainers without having them unlocked. Trading post and Inspiring Orator add up to a great amount and it only takes a min to do the math.

Maybe I'm really not that shocked because I did have two teammates who cried cheat early when the game was released and it took me awhile to explain it to them our opponents weren't cheating... Some people like to jump to conclusions to fast without giving to much thought about the workings of the game itself (skills/retainers) and funny part is they seem to be highly more educated than me. O.o

[Tomisama]

Don't want to make opponent's name public, as I am not accusing this guy of cheating.

No claims of cheating, just questions.

It is a common error of human nature to assume that everyone knows what you know, or should know what you know, when they may not, and probably don’t.

I am very new to avatar, having spent all of my time up until just recently, studying and running a classic battles competition (86 clan teams). You are the expert here, and I come here to read your posts

[AMP]

Yes that's right you didn't accuse the guy of cheating just asked if it was a cheat. Just spending 2 mins looking at the retainers and taking notice that your very first vet ranked up and showed the chev on it before even spending the skill point would've answered that question. :)

[Tomisama]

Yes that's right you didn't accuse the guy of cheating just asked if it was a cheat. Just spending 2 mins looking at the retainers and taking notice that your very first vet ranked up and showed the chev on it before even spending the skill point would've answered that question. :)

Again, "you assume" I have any idea what you are saying.

And I do know certain aspects of this game very well (classic battles and fitness for competition), but I don't speak avatar yet, and have no clue as to what you are saying (believe it or not). Sorry, I didn't , and still don't understand. Maybe Abu was right about old dogs?

Woof!

[AMP]

If you have no idea what I'm talking about you should stay away from mulitplayer...

I wasn't just talking about you either because if you look at one of abu's post he mentioned cheat as well and he should know better.

You mentioned cheat on your 4th post and said you're not gonna be playing until it gets fixed when there was never anything to fix.

And now I'm an old dog that can't be taught new tricks? huh?

[Cu'Roi]

it's actually worse than in the OP, there is a serious, serious bug that not only allows you to go over funds but also allows you to bring over 6-7 retainers...

game remains broken.

[AMP]

If it is possible where is the evidence and where did you get this info from? It must be extremely rare because I haven't came across anyone going over funds and I haven't seen 1 single replay of someone doing so yet. I never heard of someone bringing more retainers than 5 before either? Those that claimed money cheat were proven wrong when they shared the replay because they didn't know vets display rank xp regardless of how many skill points are actually spent. Maybe a new exploit, but where is the evidence at?

[Tomisama]

If you have no idea what I'm talking about you should stay away from mulitplayer...

I am, basically speaking.

I wasn't just talking about you either because if you look at one of abu's post he mentioned cheat as well and he should know better.

Sorry I misread “shocked because I did have two teammates who cried cheat”.

And btw the top two positions on the leader board are held by a confessed cheater (Kira).

You mentioned cheat on your 4th post and said you're not gonna be playing until it gets fixed when there was never anything to fix.

I am not playing, except to study, waiting for the upgrade, and hopefully some fixes.

And now I'm an old dog that can't be taught new tricks? huh?

No AMP, “I am” the old dog who can not learn the new avatar tricks.

I just turned 65 and am having some difficulty with all of the details of the avatar game (may not be due to age, maybe I am just stupid).

You were a champion player back in the original game, the idol of many, myself included.

When the new game came out we were together in battle in one of the first games you played in it.

Since then you have been playing and learning the game, and I have been starting, testing, and running a shogun classic battle team competition.

The competition is over, and it was my last of 28 major contests over the last 8 years.


I am now turning my attentions to trying to learn the new game (avatar multi), which is very different from all of the Total War multiplayer games preceding it.

Again, I am sorry I don’t understand how it all works yet, but the only way I know how to find out some things is to ask.

For example; “is this a cheat”.

[AMP]

Oh shit I didn't know you were 65 sorry :(

I wasn't around for the past few months so I didn't know about this Kira person confessing to cheating and if he confessed to money cheating or this extra retainer bug link me to it because I would wanna read about it... If he confessed to drop hacking well we all know about that and that is a good reason to stop playing MM for those that care about the leaderboard and it won't be fixed anytime soon either.

[RTKAbu]

If you have no idea what I'm talking about you should stay away from mulitplayer...

I wasn't just talking about you either because if you look at one of abu's post he mentioned cheat as well and he should know better.

You mentioned cheat on your 4th post and said you're not gonna be playing until it gets fixed when there was never anything to fix.

And now I'm an old dog that can't be taught new tricks? huh?

If you read my post i said he should check it, if you got a replay you can hoover over the unit and see the stats of it, if you see 20 laon swords with all 30 attack and 24 melee def, its a cheat no doubt, as getting such amount of units with so much attack upgrades isnt possible (probably, this is an example!)with the different retainers in mind (note= this is an example, i dont even know if 20 laons with 30 and 24 is possible anyway).

Lets say again i never checked the replay, and i adviced to check the replay and the stats and start counting. However, there are cheats, there is no doubt about it, although the definition of cheating can vary, clone cheats, disconnect cheats, money cheats (kira indeed confessed about this), ill search the link for you.

[Cu'Roi]

what? the money cheat in the OP is real, i can assure you. tomi and abu were just asking about a separate scenario which i didn't bother to acquaint myself with, where it turns out there was no money cheat used apparently based on skimming this thread.

what alper found is true (the example in the OP), and it goes even deeper, as i recently learned.

[AMP]

Yea there always were money cheats in TW even in STW and people wouldn't hide it either. I still remember facing people in STW with all honor 9 units with just 10k or less to spend when it's like... lets not make it to obvious shall we? I was just saying some people sometimes would know it's not a cheat if they just took a min to look at the system (skills and retainers).

I talked to Abu and he pointed where the evidence was for someone cheating in STW2 and the sad part is he didn't try to hide it and spent 22k in a 14k game, lol. Anyway it's not like you come across people using a money cheat all the time as I have yet to face someone who over spent in a match vs me (that I know of anyway). Any match I lost which doesn't happen to much in STW2 MM I tend to check the replay and nothing fishy is ever in the replay.

Either way this money cheat should be stopped even though very few know how to do it because people been doing it since the very first STW! It's about time they put an end to it and could it really be that hard? I played many RTS games online over the years and the good thing about RTS games is there is alot less cheating going on compared to some of those FPS games out there. Maybe next release will be the first TW to make money cheating impossible? :D