The March of Time - A Stainless Steel 6.4 hotseat

[phonicsmonkey]

(graphics by Myth)

Welcome to The March of Time, a hotseat campaign in the Stainless Steel 6.4 early campaign, using Savage AI and with real recruitment disabled.

Public diplomacy can be conducted in the courtroom thread.

The game will be played with 15 human players as follows:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Venice - slysnake
2. Sicily - Myth
3. Genoa - Ignoramus RIP turn 7
4. Denmark - RexLegend
5. Fatimid Caliphate - phonicsmonkey
6. Cumans - Rougeman
AI. France (formerly LooseCannon1)
7. England - Zim
8. Poland - Gaius Octavius Caesar
AI. Byzantine Empire (formerly Ezilkannan) RIP - turn 9
9. Moors - Nightbringer
10. Lithuania - Nigel
11. Kievan Rus - Mithridate
AI. Norway (formerly deguerra) RIP - turn 6
AI (but skipped). Khwarezm (formerly Silvershield)

Players should observe the following rules while playing the game:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Battles may be fought or auto-resolved at the players' discretion.

No reloading the save to create a different outcome.

Each player has 48 hours to complete his turn, post the save game to this thread and alert the next player in line by private message. If the deadline is missed the Admin may skip his faction or he can be subbed by an ally. Extensions will be granted on reasonable request.

Do not recruit General's Bodyguard units. These may only be created by adoption, marriage, natural birth or man of the hour.

Do not attack ships in ports.

Armies boarding ships in ports can't stay there for more than one turn.

Don't leave blockaded ports without beating the blockading ships first.

Do not exploit the naval movement bug (to avoid this always select your navy by clicking on the ship on the campaign map and not by selecting the unit cards.)

Don't stack merchants in armies or forts to get more than one to stand on the same resource (Merchant Fort)

No surrounding armies or agents to destroy them, either by occupying the tiles around the army or agent or by deliberately blocking all exit routes from the province in question. An escape route must always be left for a retreating army, except where that army has arrived by boat and has no contiguous friendly territory to escape into. (Surround & Destroy)

Don't use repeated offers for bribe to increase your faction leader's dread.

Enable "Unlimited men on battlefield" in order to not abuse when leading battles vs the AI.

Armies that are defeated in battle by a player that comes after them in the turn list may not move the following turn. This is to make it fair for people who are defeated by players that come before them in the turn list, and thus lose all their movement points

Armies that are defeated in battle may not be attacked on the following turn, as they are banned from moving, either by the game mechanics or by the rule above. They must be allowed to move first, or must be reinforced. If the defeated army retreats to a settlement or fort, this rule does not apply.

In order to assist with the observance of these rules, please post the list of defeated armies in the game thread when uploading the save for the next player.

Ballistas can't open anything, catapults can open wooden walls, trebuchets or better can open anything.

Assassins are allowed to target anyone except family members but players are limited to one assassination or sabotage attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else. If a successful assassination or sabotage is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the assassination. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

Spies may infiltrate cities to open the gates as well as perform other spying actions but players are limited to one attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else, OR the second action if they are also attempting an assassination / sabotage in the same turn. If a successful spying attempt is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the action. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

No crusades or jihads to be called or joined.

No buildings to be destroyed for cash under any circumstances.

No trading of provinces solely to receive free troops. If you trade provinces, make sure they have no garrison prior to the exchange.

No deliberate deals that would put you in debt above -10,000 florins

No making vassals of AI-controlled factions.

Due to the Kwaz player leaving the game there are now special rules concerning that faction:

It is forbidden to interact with the Kwaz in any way - they should be considered to be not a part of the game at all and their territories are not part of the map.

So, no-one can take any of their lands or attack any of their armies or agents. No diplomatic deals are allowed with the Kwaz including trade rights and map swaps.

Exceptions:

- if their armies and agents are in your lands you may attack and destroy them.
- if your victory conditions include territories currently held by the Kwaz you may take them and any territories along the way, but only if your other victory conditions have already been satisfied.

If there are any questions about the rules please ask the admin before playing the turn. In addition to the rules players are requested to abide by the spirit of the game and avoid exploiting the game mechanics on the campaign map to gain an unfair advantage. If a particular action is not specifically banned but is suspected to be an exploit please raise the issue in the thread before proceeding to play the turn. An extension will always be granted in this circumstance.

Please note that there are considered to be no exploits on the battle map. Any and all actions on the battle map are permissible.

Grace period:

The first turn will be a grace period in order to give players the chance to organise their troops, cancel AI recruitment and construction and prepare for the battle ahead.

During the grace period, which will last one turn:

- Do not recruit troops, agents or hire mercenaries.
- Do not take any aggressive actions towards any human controlled faction, including agent actions.

The first save, for Venice, is attached to this thread.

Enjoy the game!

[Myth]

The problem with not taking aggressive actions vs the Ai is that some AI nations have stacks right next to or actually besieging human towns. The AI under such circumstances will never accept a ceasefire (and if it does, it will just break it when it gets to play its turn). For example, If I skip now the ERE will take one of my towns and possibly wipe out a full stack near it as well since it has siege equipment. The grace period IMO should apply to players only.

[Nightbringer]

I would be agreeable to this as I have similar situations. If others are seriously opposed to this I will now force the issue though.

[Rougeman]

maybe a.i. armies can be attacked if its in a threatening position? like if its in range to attack a settlement or fort etc

[phonicsmonkey]

maybe a.i. armies can be attacked if its in a threatening position?

Ok, let's make the grace period apply just to human factions.

Myth, the ERE is human controlled (Ezilkannan has them)! That means during the grace period he can't assault you but I think he should be able to maintain the siege if he wants to. After all you are first in the turn order so you'll have the drop on him once the grace period expires.

Anyone have a problem like this where the besieging human faction is before them in the turn order? Let me know and I'll make a ruling.

[slysnake]

Agreed, this sounds reasonable.

Sicily MoT-1-Sicily.sav

[SilverShield]

i exchanged some words with Phonics. kinda made me thinking about the whole thing again. tho the way im thinking about all that remains i lastly am just punishing myself if i wasnt playing the game because of that so im back for kwarz. horse power all the way


i just checked the rules. the thing with just having one spy action per turn lastly makes opening gates kinda impossible. the chances for one spy opening the gates of anything are pretty slim. even two are seldom doing the trick already but two is better than one. so imo we are doing better if we limited it to two spy actions a turn at least

[phonicsmonkey]

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

[deguerra]

Nup, agree with the rule 100% phonics. Also thanks for the random seed explanation. I'd long suspected something similar was the case, but was never quite sure how it worked.

[Nightbringer]

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

[phonicsmonkey]

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

I'm not sure but it's easy to test. Just save, AR a battle, note the results. Then reload, try an agent action, the AR the same battle and see if the results are different.

[Nightbringer]

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

[phonicsmonkey]

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

Based on the reloading discussion over at TWC I would say it does work that way.

I should be clear too that if you have already infiltrated several cities or forts taking one turn at a time to do so, then you can definitely open all those gates in the same turn if the game will let you. The rule doesn't restrict that. Those odds are set for the particular turn and don't use the random seed in the same way as the spying attempts do.

[Myth]

1. Spies can open the gate on the same turn and it's happened about 30% of the time for me when I used to do that in SP. They are not that relevant now that we all have Trebuchets anyway.

2. There is much less leeway for the AR calculator, though it does vary as well. AR battles are linked with the random seed, it's one random seed for everything. However, the outcome for each action changes based on other actions done. So, for example, if you attempt to assasinate a character and fail, you can move another agent or an army, or fight a battle, and then try it, and this time the result will be different. It is possible for one to load many times untill they find a "winning" sequence of acitons that will let them succeed on a given random check.

I've had battles be close defeats, but then i've loaded and the only thing i've changed was I won another battle first, and then did the problematic one and presto - clear victory. This happens very rarely though. What I've noticed however, is that if your attacking general has Night Fighter, the odds of you winning the battle are much greater if you "flash" (select and deselect the NB icon) the night battle option. Don't ask me why, I have no idea. Overall though it's not possible to severly influence the autoreseolve results with loading - a stack of archers will never beat a stack of Dism. Chivalric Knights.

[Rougeman]

nvm

[phonicsmonkey]

the odds of you winning the battle are much greater if you "flash" (select and deselect the NB icon) the night battle option..

This game is so weird and buggy, I have no idea why I spend so much time on it!

[ArcturUs]

The problem with not taking aggressive actions vs the Ai is that some AI nations have stacks right next to or actually besieging human towns. The AI under such circumstances will never accept a ceasefire (and if it does, it will just break it when it gets to play its turn). For example, If I skip now the ERE will take one of my towns and possibly wipe out a full stack near it as well since it has siege equipment. The grace period IMO should apply to players only.

You got a full stack right next to that settlement and you are before me in turn order. Like phonics said, I think you would be able to hit first and probably beat them back. I won't be assaulting the settlement since its against the rules, but I may continue the siege, since even if i drop it i wouldn't be able to move my stack away I think, as they are caught up near the settlement.

[Myth]

I have to assess the situation and then I'll approach ceratin players for diplomacy. You're welcome to do it as well. I usually cover my diplomacy prior to the start of the game but I have not had the time for this one.

[ArcturUs]

I think at the present situation, I should be making deals with a lot of players (since I seem to be the only person at war with almost every single nation out there). I will be sending out diplomats and pms to some players, but I will keep it at war with some factions, just for fun :P

[slysnake]

I think at the present situation, I should be making deals with a lot of players (since I seem to be the only person at war with almost every single nation out there). I will be sending out diplomats and pms to some players, but I will keep it at war with some factions, just for fun :P

You should have seen what it was like taking on the Holy Romans in the 1200's for Wrath of Khan, I think my only allies when I started were the Moors and the only factions I were not at war with were the Russian factions to the far east and England I think lol..

[ArcturUs]

You should have seen what it was like taking on the Holy Romans in the 1200's for Wrath of Khan, I think my only allies when I started were the Moors and the only factions I were not at war with were the Russian factions to the far east and England I think lol..

You mean WotK2? I play the moors in that :P

[Myth]

I took a rebel settlement - first blood for me! (though there was no actual fighting involved, it was empty)

Denmark up.

[RexLegend]

Fought with small army of HRE on Stettin region. Second(?) blood for me >:P

Fatimid Caliphate up.

[deguerra]

Any chance we can get a diplomacy thread phonics?

[phonicsmonkey]

sure thing, be right with you...

Cumans are up

[SilverShield]

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

[deguerra]

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

Yes. In theory, any spy/assassination action can change the 'randomness' of the turn to follow. Kinda weird, yes. Not the weirdest thing about Medieval 2 though.

In hotseat games, we therefore require that turns be done in a specific order: Assassination - Spy - Everything else (are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics?). This is not to somehow change the outcome of the game (though potentially it does, but seeing as we'll never know, it doesn't matter) but so that the outcome can be replicated. That is, if someone attempts to cheat, but follows the same order, the result will be the same (thus defeating the point of cheating). And anyone else can replicate the exact results by following the order (thus catching cheating if someone does not follow the order).

It is all a bit convoluted and technical, but you don't really have to worry about it. Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

[phonicsmonkey]

(are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics

Yes, I'll update the rules when I get a chance - I'm crazy busy with work this week

Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

Yesssss, trust the monkey....

[Rougeman]

Mot_1_France.sav

[LooseCannon1]

England's up