Poll: If a Belgic faction is to be featured in EBII who are the best Belgae to lead it?

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Thread: Brennus Belgian Bother

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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Brennus Belgian Bother

    Hello all,
    I have a problem which is nagging at the back of my head and I want to put it to the demos of the EBII forum to gauge people’s view.

    It doesn’t take a genius to realise that of all the possible EBII factions that may be in the pipeline I am a strong advocate for one group in particular, the Belgae. Recent discussion and popular opinion appear to suggest other people are likewise in favour of a Belgic faction for a variety of reasons (stopping the Sweboz for one) so this thread should hopefully provoke a bit of discussion. Let us assume for a moment that the Belgae are a locked/soon to be confirmed faction. The problem I have is “which Belgae?”. For you see there are three possible groups who could represent the Belgae; the Belgians proper, the Remi and the Tréveri. Each has its own merits which could allow it to be a faction and it is these I wish to discuss with you fine people.

    The first issue to raise and dismiss is the idea of “why not just have the Belgae as one faction?”. In my view this would be equivalent of when Creative Assembly gave us the “Gaul”, “Britannia” and “Germania” factions in vanilla, a unified polity where in truth a unified polity did not exist. Although the Belgae did posses the Concillium Commune Belgarum as Caesar describes (Caesar, BG II, 4.4) this was an assembly of the Belgic tribes, like the Concilium Totius Galliae, which Caesar describes in other parts of his narrative for Gallia Celtae, it was not a unified government. Within Belgica different tribes pursued different policies, in some cases policies which were directly at odds with other Belgic tribes. Each of the three groups I would like to discuss with you here were distinct enough in their actions and history that they should not all be classed as “A Belgae faction”.

    THE BELGIANS PROPER
    The first of these and (I will not lie, my favourite choice) are what I refer to as The Belgians Proper or, to give them their individual tribal names; The Bellovaci, Viromandui, Atrebates and Ambiani. To this group the Suessions can also possibly be added. You see, in addition to describing Belgica, Caesar also names a region called Belgium within Belgica. Whilst wintering his troops in 54BC he states that he billeted some legions in Belgium but also sent some legions outside of Beglium to winter in the territory of the Eburones, Nervii, Morini and Remi despite previously naming these tribes as living in Belgica (Caesar BG V 4, II 4). This idea of “Belgium” as a part distinct within Belgica was first discussed by the British archaeologists Hawkes and Dunning in their landmark paper “The Belgae of Gaul and Britain” (Hawkes and Dunning 1930, 240-244). It has since received further support from other specialists such as Chris Hawkes (1968), Rolf Hachmann (1976), Nico Roymans (1993) Stefan Fichtl (1994) and Colin Haselgrove (2007).

    The idea of the tribes listed above, as having a distinct regional identity of coming from “Belgium” has interesting connotations as the Beglic people Caesar describes as having settled in Britain were “ex Belgio” (from Belgium) rather “ex Belgica” (Caesar BG, V 12; Hawkes and Dunning 1930 240-242). And this idea of the Belgae of “Belgium” expanding into Britain is supported by three facts. Firstly is Caesars description of the Suession king Diviciacos having ruled Belgium and parts of Britain (Caesar BG II 5). Secondly, beginning around the mid 2nd Century BC gold coinage began to arrive in south eastern Britain from the continent, this coinage invariably come from the region of “Belgium”, in most cases from the Ambiani and Atrebates but with some from the regions of the Bellovaci and Suessions (Allen 1960; Creighton 2000). Furthermore the only Belgic tribal name we can find in Britain which testifies to the Belgic invasion is that of the Atrebates. It thus appears that the Belgians proper were expansionist, a feature key to any possible EBII faction.

    The international relations of the Belgians Proper would also make for an interesting faction as Caesar informs us that the Bellovaci (who he also states as being the most important of the Belgians) were allies of the Aedui, even stating that the Bellovaci decided to oppose the Romans out of feelings that the Aedui had been enslaved by the Romans (Caesar BG II 14). This alliance between the Aedui and Bellovaci (which could be assumed to include the other Belgians) appears to have been a particularly old one, one which was likely already in existence in 272BC (Fichtl 2003).

    Other features which would make the Belgians proper an interesting group is their archaeology. Sanctuaries within “Belgium”, due to their location on the borders of different tribes, have been suggested to fulfil the role of communal centres which acted to unify the tribes into the sort of confederation which Caesar describes this regions as having (Fichtl 2003, 68; Caesar BG II)

    THE REMI (AND SUESSIONS)

    The Remi and the Suessions are likewise strong contenders for a possible Belgic faction. According to Caesar they shared the same government, laws, institutions and were brothers (Caesar BG II 3). Despite this they pursued different policies during the Gallic wars. The Suessions have already been discussed and so this section is dedicated more so to the Remi than both tribes. The strength of the Remi as leaders of a possible Belgic faction lies in the fact that by 52BC they had established a sizeable number of subject clients (Carnutes, Meldes and Suessions) and were second only to the Aedui in terms of importance in Gaul (Fichtl 2004 135; Caesar BG VI 12). However this place of importance within Gallic inter-tribal politics, although it may have been older, appears to have more to do with the recent decline of the Sequani and Rome favouring the Remi rather than the inherent strength of the Remi. Even still Caesar informs us that the Remi successfully protected those tribes under their protection.

    In terms of foreign policy the Remi were strongly pro-Roman throughout the Gallic wars even during the great uprising of Vercingetorix.

    THE TREVERI AND ALLIES
    The final group I would like to discuss is the Treveri and their clients the Eburones and Condruses. According to Caesar and Tacitus these groups were proud to call and be called Germans. In the case of the Ebuornes they also proved to be extremely warlike; the Eburonic King Ambiorix managing to destroy a Roman legion.

    The classification of these people as “Germans”, whether you interpret it as being Germanic speakers or recent arrivals from the other side of the Rhine, would mean that the Nervii and Atuatuci could also be included in a Belgic faction led by the Treveri whilst still being historically sound. This would make such as Belgic faction extremely powerful and would allow such a faction to occupy the EB maps upper Belgic province (assuming the province has not been dramatically changed in EBII).

    CONCLUSION
    There, in a nutshell is my problem. Each of these tribes could adequately represent/lead a Belgic faction but the problem is which one. I accept I have perhaps given too much emphasis to the Belgians proper but there exists more information on these people. I want to ask people in the EBII forum what their views are. Furthermore if a Belgic faction has been ruled out by the team or if another means of representing the Belgae has been decided I hope this information is of some use to the team.



    Bibliography to follow shortly, I need to make my dinner now.



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    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    This is really an interesting thread. I don't know enough about the Belgians to add a lot to the discussion, just, it's possible that, if there is a belgic faction, it will be displayed as a conglomerate of belgic tribes. We have seen it exemplified in the Pritanoi-Preview. In their case the EB team discarded the tribal names that were given by Caesar and later writers, because there was no evidence these tribes existed in the third century BC, let alone using the same names Caesar accounted for, almost two hundred years later. I don't know if such evidence exists in the case of the beglic tribes but we can be sure that's something the team will look into, if they are going to do a belgic faction.
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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by Oh! TheLastDays! View Post
    This is really an interesting thread. I don't know enough about the Belgians to add a lot to the discussion, just, it's possible that, if there is a belgic faction, it will be displayed as a conglomerate of belgic tribes. We have seen it exemplified in the Pritanoi-Preview. In their case the EB team discarded the tribal names that were given by Caesar and later writers, because there was no evidence these tribes existed in the third century BC, let alone using the same names Caesar accounted for, almost two hundred years later. I don't know if such evidence exists in the case of the beglic tribes but we can be sure that's something the team will look into, if they are going to do a belgic faction.
    In the case of the Bellovaci, Atrebates etc. the archaeological record appears to show continuty in the area from the 3rd century BC until the 1st century AD, suggesting that these tribal groupings were in existence in 272BC.



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    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    In the case of the Bellovaci, Atrebates etc. the archaeological record appears to show continuty in the area from the 3rd century BC until the 1st century AD, suggesting that these tribal groupings were in existence in 272BC.
    I think this would speak for the use of one of these tribes as a representative for the Belgae. I'm pretty sure they would use one where there is evidence, not only of existence aroud 272 BC but also at least a hint towards dominance among the tribes.
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    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Reading over the cases for each, it is clear that the Belgians proper are the strongest candidate. I must add that this is an incredible piece of work, you obviously are very passionate about the Belgae. I used to be a Belgae hater, but there are too many Greeks in this game and ever since the other Gauls were reduced to one province Gaul looks eye-bleedingly beige.

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    Member Member stratigos vasilios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Who knows, they might be represented as a Koinon Belgion...

    Tongue in cheek of course!
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    Member Member Leon the Batavian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    The answer to this question is quiet simple.

    The ones who brew the best beer should lead.

    The gods have spoken!

    So if you find the tribe who was best at it you know your answer :)
    Last edited by Leon the Batavian; 10-23-2011 at 12:58.

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    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Interesting about the Belgae from "Belgium", also about the material continuity...
    I'd like to see the Bellovaci, they are among those present from the start and the alliance with Aeduoi speaks for their importance, plus they were the most war-like of the "furious ones", quite a character :P

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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Sorry it took a while, here are the sources in case people want to cross check:

    Allen, D.F. 1960. ‘The Origins of Coinage in Britain: A Reappraisal; in Frere, S.S. (ed.) Problems of the Iron Age in Southern Britain. (p97-302). University of London Institute of Archaeology: London
    Caesar. De Bello Gallico
    Creighton, J. 2000. Coins and power in late Iron Age Britain. Cambridge University Press: Press
    Fichtl, S. 2004. Les Peuples Gaulois. Editions Errance: Paris
    -----------1994. Le Gaulois du Nord de la Gaule. Editions Errance: Paris
    Hachmann, R. 1976.The problem of the Belgae seen from the continent, Bulletin of the Institute of Archaeology, 13, p117-137.
    Haselgrove, C. 2007. ‘The Age of Enclosure: Later Iron Age settlement and society in Northern France’ in The Later Iron Age in Britain and Beyond. C. Haselgrobe and Moore, T. (eds), p492-523. Oxbow Books: Oxford
    Hawkes, C.F.C. and Dunning, G.G. 1931. The Belgae of Gaul and Britain. Archaeological Journal (87): London
    Hawkes, C.F.C. 1968. New Thoughts on the Belgae. Antiquity, 42, p6-16
    Roymans, N. 1990. Tribal Societies in Northern Gaul. Cingula: Amsterdam



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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Thank you to everyone for your thoughts, its interesting that at least one person has voted for the Remi. Special thanks to Populous for the compliment, much apprectiated!

    Worryingly though, I have found some new information which casts doubt on the validity of a Belgic faction being in EBII (my posting this is equivealent to the Pope saying Jesus is a myth). Thia week I have been reading a book examining the Celts of North Western Europe, the author Venceslas Kruta, states that the Belgae migrated to Belgica c.250BC (interestingly from the upper Danube which dispells any notion of the Belgians proper being Germans). Now this need not pose an insuperable problem to the Belgae being in EBII, Kruta's book is from 1985 and more recent studies may have updated the arrival of the Belgae also there are a few EB factions who are confirmed who's existence in 272BC is questionable (Sweboz, Parthia, Baktria).



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    EB Support Guy Senior Member XSamatan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Impressive.

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    Member Member Power2the1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Thank you to everyone for your thoughts, its interesting that at least one person has voted for the Remi. Special thanks to Populous for the compliment, much apprectiated!

    Worryingly though, I have found some new information which casts doubt on the validity of a Belgic faction being in EBII (my posting this is equivealent to the Pope saying Jesus is a myth). Thia week I have been reading a book examining the Celts of North Western Europe, the author Venceslas Kruta, states that the Belgae migrated to Belgica c.250BC (interestingly from the upper Danube which dispells any notion of the Belgians proper being Germans). Now this need not pose an insuperable problem to the Belgae being in EBII, Kruta's book is from 1985 and more recent studies may have updated the arrival of the Belgae also there are a few EB factions who are confirmed who's existence in 272BC is questionable (Sweboz, Parthia, Baktria).
    The Celts by Moscati, Kruta, etc... mentions this as well, though I forget the exact chapter as the book is over 800 pages. I think it would be found under the chapter focusing on Celts along the Danube. Among the main reasons for his are, for one, the sudden apperance of female adornment items such as anklets, that only appear in the eastern Carpathian/Danubian zones.

    It's interesting to note the regions belonging to the Triueroi (Treveri) are known to have had arrivals from elsewhere as well around the same time. I am unsure to the two occurrences are linked, but it is interesting nonetheless in the scope of what has happened during that time.

    In many was it could be believed that a large part of what Caesar mentions about the Belgae being made of people across the east bank of the Rhine (that Caesar all calls 'Germans') could refer to these other arrivals from the Celtic areas of the Danube, and not Germans of the Jasdorf culture. We have archaeological evidence of Danubian Celts in the Belgic areas, but not Jasdorf Germans in the Belgic areas during this migration period.

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    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Yes I've read that they were part of the Volcae aswell, but iirc around 250 they had a big fight with the "locals", before settling and becoming Belgae, so some groups must have been there already...

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    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    i vote for the nervii i want to cast the joke while playing and exterminating a city "these damm belgae where getting on my nerves"

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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Power2the1 are you involved in any of the EBII Celtic factions?



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    Member Member Power2the1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Yes, I am involved with the continental Celtic factions (I'm the FC of the Bouiroi, Aeduoi, and Aruernoi) and oversee the overall development for those factions.

    I still cannot confirm, nor or deny, the Belgae having a factional slot in the game.

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    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    The Celts by Moscati, Kruta, etc... mentions this as well, though I forget the exact chapter as the book is over 800 pages. I think it would be found under the chapter focusing on Celts along the Danube. Among the main reasons for his are, for one, the sudden apperance of female adornment items such as anklets, that only appear in the eastern Carpathian/Danubian zones.

    It's interesting to note the regions belonging to the Triueroi (Treveri) are known to have had arrivals from elsewhere as well around the same time. I am unsure to the two occurrences are linked, but it is interesting nonetheless in the scope of what has happened during that time.

    In many was it could be believed that a large part of what Caesar mentions about the Belgae being made of people across the east bank of the Rhine (that Caesar all calls 'Germans') could refer to these other arrivals from the Celtic areas of the Danube, and not Germans of the Jasdorf culture. We have archaeological evidence of Danubian Celts in the Belgic areas, but not Jasdorf Germans in the Belgic areas during this migration period.
    The appearance of a new kind of foreign artefact does not necessarily mean the arrival of a new immigrant group. This kind of thinking coloured archaeologists' interpretation of the Iron Age in Britain until the 1960s, when it was thoroughly discredited and has now been almost entirely abandoned by specialists. If that is the only evidence the theory is based upon, there may not be any need to endorse it. However please bear in mind that I have not read the texts or examined the evidence myself, so if I'm talking rubbish just ignore me. :)
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    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    I read that the wooden sanctuary at Ribemont-sur-Ancre is dated 280-60 BC, wouldn't that be enough to have the Ambiani settled?

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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    I read that the wooden sanctuary at Ribemont-sur-Ancre is dated 280-60 BC, wouldn't that be enough to have the Ambiani settled?
    I'm not as knowledgeable about Ribemont-sur-Acre as I am for Gournay-sur-Aronde but a date of 280-60BC would certainly be acceptable to suggest the Ambiani were in place by the time of EBIIs timeframe.

    So far the popular opinion is swinging towards the Belgians proper (although that may be due to the emphasis I gave them in my argument).



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    Member Member Frostwulf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    I also would go with Belgian proper simply because of the power they had early on.
    Quote Originally Posted by power2the1
    The Celts by Moscati, Kruta, etc... mentions this as well, though I forget the exact chapter as the book is over 800 pages. I think it would be found under the chapter focusing on Celts along the Danube. Among the main reasons for his are, for one, the sudden apperance of female adornment items such as anklets, that only appear in the eastern Carpathian/Danubian zones.

    It's interesting to note the regions belonging to the Triueroi (Treveri) are known to have had arrivals from elsewhere as well around the same time. I am unsure to the two occurrences are linked, but it is interesting nonetheless in the scope of what has happened during that time.

    In many was it could be believed that a large part of what Caesar mentions about the Belgae being made of people across the east bank of the Rhine (that Caesar all calls 'Germans') could refer to these other arrivals from the Celtic areas of the Danube, and not Germans of the Jasdorf culture. We have archaeological evidence of Danubian Celts in the Belgic areas, but not Jasdorf Germans in the Belgic areas during this migration period.
    This is not exactly the way I understand the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venceslas Kruta-“Celts History and Civilization”
    The situation is particularly clear in Champagne, where the areas that became depopulated around the end of the 5th century BCE were gradually reoccupied, starting in the south, the Senones’ historic territory. Small groups began to arrive around 270 BCE, and founded new necropolises or reused the bruial-sites that had lain abandoned fro two centuries. They can be differentiated from indigenous inhabitants - the Remi to the north and the Senones in the south - by typically Danubian female jewellery, which is quite unusual in the region: pg.86
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Cunliffe-“The ancient Celts”
    The possibility that Celtic groups from the Balkans may have moved westwards through Europe and settled in the west is suggested by archaeological and literary evidence. In the Marne region, for example, a new range of warrior burials accompanied by well-furnished female graves makes a sudden appearance towards the middle of the third century. New cemeteries were established and old burial sites reused. It is now that areas long abandoned are reoccupied. The implication is that new Celtic groups had moved into the Champagne region to augment the thinly scattered indigenous Celtic population. That these new settlers may have come from the Carpathian Basin is suggested by similarities in dress between the two areas, in particular the use of anklets by women, and by the prevalence of small funerary enclosures which now appear.
    In southern Gaul there is also evidence suggestive of an influx of new people from the Danube region. The southern Gaulish historian Pompeius Trogus, quoted by Justinus, records that a number of the Tectosages, who were involved in the retreat from Greece, moved west eventually to settle in the vicinity of Toulouse, bringing with them treasure from the sack of Delphi which they deposited in sacred lakes. Pg.87
    This appears to be the Danubian Celts entering the area of the Remi, which is a different area from the other Belgae, more particularly the Germani cisrhenani.

    This is an explanation of classification by this particular author:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maureen Carroll-"Romans, Celts & Germans"
    What is now the equivalent of France, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany west of the Rhine was known as Gaul (Gallia), despite the fact that Germanic and mixed Celtic and Germanic peoples lived there. Carved out of the eastern fringes of Gaul were the German provinces where Celtic and Germanic groups also lived side by side. The indigenous peoples under consideration, however, categorized their ethnic ascription on a specific tribal level, identifying themselves as belonging to a particular group and not using a collective name. In using, mainly for the sake of simplicity, the names 'Celt' or 'Gaul' (which I do interchangeably) and 'German' I am using the standard terminology of antiquity which also has an established tradition in modern archaeological and historical research. That there is a great diversity in this generalized unity is absolutely clear, and this is taken into account in many ways in the individual chapters of the book. Pg. 10-11
    She goes on to areas associated with different tribes of the Belgae:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maureen Carroll-"Romans, Celts & Germans"
    In this survey, only those groups who lived within the areas later corresponding to the provinces of Germania Inferior and Germania Superior or in areas tangential to these provinces will be discussed. Gaul north of the Seine was the territory of the Belgae, who Caesar claimed in the distant past to have migrated to Gaul from beyond the Rhine. Belgic Gaul consisted of a mixture of peoples who were Celtic, as well as others north of the Somme who were either of mixed Celtic and Germanic character or even primarily of Germanic origin. These latter on the lower Rhine were known to Caesar as Germani Cisrhenani (west-bank Germans). Along the middle Rhine, Germanic and Gallic population groups inhabited both banks of the river, but on the upper Rhine Celtic peoples held sway and formed a bulwark against the Germans in the east. Pg.17
    According to Carroll the Germani Cisrhenani:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maureen Carroll-"Romans, Celts & Germans"
    The persistence of ethnic traditions is also reflected in the German language of the Ubii (but also of the indigenous population or Germani cisrhenani) which continued to be spoken throughout the Roman period. Significantly, this is more recognizably detectable amongst those members of the group who did not live in an urban environment, and it is in the countryside that non-Roman names predominate over Roman names with tria nomina. It is also here in Cologne's hinterland that more traditional Germanic timber architecture survived in the context of farmsteads (see chapter 4). Pg.130
    Simon James also considers the Belgae closer(perhaps) to the Germani then to the "Celts". There is reason to assume Caesar was correct in the "Germani" coming over at an earlier time.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.D. Rankin-"Celts and the Classical World"
    "By the end of the sixth century BC, the Germans had expanded into Belgium and the southern part of Holland. They occupied both banks of the lower Rhine, and they reached as far south as the Ardennes.
    Across Europe the long line of Celtic hill-forts may be said to have restrained German expansion for centuries, though, as we have said, there was considerable intermingling. Certain tribes of Gaul, such as the Aedui, boasted of Germanic descent. The Belgae also were a mixture of German and Celt. Pg.18-19
    Last edited by Frostwulf; 12-28-2011 at 14:06.

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    Member Member asugrynd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    When I read this thread I just couldn't resist to post a few things on the Belgae. Just for fun and a bit of insight on these tribes.
    It may be interesting for people to read. (I hope I don't post something that's been written before here.)

    My sources are:

    the book "De oude Belgen" (=the old Belgians) written by Ugo Janssens, 2007
    this may or may not have an English translation.

    The collections and info from the Gallo-Roman museum in Tongeren, Belgium.

    I'll start with writing a list (the Latin names) on the various tribes described in the book with a bit of extra info on them:

    -Ambiani: lived in their main town Samarobriva (=Somme-bridge) (some total war vets recall that name?), at the River Somme.
    57 BC joined the Belgian alliance opposing julius ceasar. After a defeat they allied with the Romans 54BC. Helped Vercingetorix in 52 BC by sending 5000 men in the fight for Alesia.
    51BC they fought one last time against the Romans with the Bellovaci. They are supposed to be the first coinforgers since 200BC.

    -Atrebates "those who posess villages" : Their territory was nowadays Artois. In 200 BC some famillies immigrated to southernwest England in nowadays Sussex, Hampshire, Berkshire.
    In 57 BC they assaulted the captial of the Remi, Bibrax (Bibracte). The same year they also fought with the Nervi and Viromandui against ceasar's troopsnear the Selle river. After a lost battle Ceasar apointed a capable warlord Commios as their king.They went on campaign in England on Roman request. In 52 BC Commios turned from the Romans and joined Vercingetorix after the loss at Alesia he rebelled in 51BC, but eventually had to flee to England where he became king of the 'British' atrebates.

    -Atuatuci: Of germanic origin living between the Rhine and Maas. According to ceasar descendants of the Teutons and Kimbren. In 57BC they arrived too late on a battle which possibly had cost a Belgian victory, they fell back and broke a pact with the Romans, after their failed attempt to surprise the Romans to still try and turn the loss to a victory, Ceasar made a example of them by enslaving 53 000 men, women and children. The Eburones payed homage to themuntill after that defeat. In 54 BC they joined a raid with the Eburones(led by one of the Eburon kings Ambiorix), to assault a Roman wintercamp which at that time ended in a stalemate.

    -Baetasii: Little is known of this tribe, they were recorded by Plinius the elder when he served in the Roman army as an officer.

    -Bellovaci 'Roaring fighters': Lived on the right side of the Oise-river. It's suggested they lived in the city Bratuspantium(Bratosporios).
    They were a big and mighty tribe, in 57BC they send 60 000 men to join the Belgian coalition at this time there was distrrust between them and the Remi and Suessionen due to alliances with the Romans. In 52 BC they refused to send Vercingetorix any men, because they wished to beat the Romans on their own in a seperate war.

    -Brittani: Litlle is known about them except that they were of celtic origin and lived near the Rhine, they are suspected to be a remnant of their tribe that went to England.

    -Caeroesi: Of german origin their name is suspected to mean "herders of sheep", though there is debate on this. In 57 BC they send 40 000 men to fight the Romans along with the Eburons and Condrusi, all of these are considered of germanic origin, Ceasar called them 'germani cisrhehani' Germans on the left side of the Rhine. Sources tell they lived close to nowadays city Luik towards the border of Germany.

    -Caleti "Tough men" : They answered to the Bellovaci, fighting alongside them, Caesar named them in his list of enemy tribes.

    -Catuslogi: Should've lived near nowadays Normandy, Plinius the Elder mentioned them. Their name is supposed to mean "fighting troops".

    -Catuvellauni "Leaders in battle" : In 40 BC they won territories from the atrebates in England, only in 50 BC the Romans conquered them, they lived north of Theems.

    -Condrusi: They are suspected to come from the place Condroz, they crossed the Rhine and joined the Gallic rebellion in 57BC and 52 BC. They were supposed to be vassals of the Treveri.

    -Coritani: One century before the Roman invasion they crossed the channel. They founded Leicester, and controlled Nottinghamshire, Lincolshire and part of Yorkshire, they became a powerfull tribe and are considered to be the first to forge coins in England.

    -Eburones: Of germanic origin. They were vassals of the treveri and payed loans to the atuatuci.
    They lived in the region of the province Limburg in Belgium. There is debate on their name it's meaning possible it could be 'People of the taxus" or "people of the boar".
    A popular tribe in nowadays Belgium due to the story of their king Ambiorix who in 54 BC tricked the Roman commanders Sabinus and Cotta into an ambush where 7000 Roman soldiers commanders included died. Caesar drove the Eburones from their lands and gave it to a befriended tribe the Tungri.

    Menapii: Of celtic origin. This tribe was never fully conquered by the Romans, partly due to the rough terrain where they lived, they were considered to be a collection of seperate communities living on small islands near the Rhine and Maas all up to the sea. They were sailors who traded with their 'Brittish' cousins. They joined all the great revolts and along with the Morini they fought against ceasar in 55BC with bloody losses and victories in equal measure.

    Morini "Sea people": They were sailors aswell whom traded with the peoples in south England. They lived between the north sea and the Ijzer river.
    Their most important port was Portius Itius or nowadays Boonen/Boulogne-Sur-Mer. Their capital was Taruenna or nowThérouanne/Terwaan.
    In 57 BC they joined the Belgian coalitien with 25 000 men. 2 years later they made a pact with the Menapii and the tribes from Armorica (north of France).
    After a defeat they fell under the rule of Commios, who was befriended with Rome at that time. They send 5000 men to Vercingetorix in 52 BC.

    -Grudii: Litlle is known except that they lived close to the Samber river and were vassals of the Nervii.

    -Nervii: One of the most powerfull tribes of the Belgae, several subtribes were ceutroni, Grudii, Lavaci, Pleumoxii and Geudummes, they joined all the great battles against the Romans.
    In 57 BC, under command of their king Boduognat they brought the Romans to the brink of destruction along with the atrebates a,d viromandui.
    In 54 BC they supported the Eburon kings(!) Ambiorix and catuvolcos in their battle against the Romans who camped there for winter.
    They also supported Vercingetorix in 52 BC.

    -Paemani: Of germanic origin, they joined the first big Belgian coalition against Caesar, they were vassals of the Treveri.

    - Remi "The first" "The princes" "The eldest": This powerfull tribe never fought against the Romans. When the Roman invasion began they immediately requested an alliance.
    Their capitol Bibrax (Bibracte). They were close with the suessiones. They never fought against the Romans to keep their favourable trade with England.

    -Segni: Their lands were between the Treveri, Eburones and condrusi. In 57 BC they joined the Belgian coalition, though being a small tribe they feared the Romans and to be in their favor, snitched Eburones whom where in hiding on their territory between 53BC and 51 BC.

    -Silvanectes: Litlle is known of their existance, they are suspected to be close kin of the Suessiones.

    -Sunuci: They were the last germanic groups during the Roman invasion to cross the Rhine. Plinius the Elder made note of them, they were supposed to live close the the province of Limburg in Belgium.

    - Suessiones: Their capital was Noviodunon "New fort" nowadays Soisson. There's debate on their name's meaning possible are "Those who posses much food", "those who fortify their homeland" or
    "Those who posses six armies". Their laws were near identical with those of the Remi. Under command of their king Galba they joined with 50 000 men in the first coalition against Caesar. After this they would become allies of the Romans (just like the Remi). in 51 BC ceasar send 4 legions to scare away the atrebates and Bellovaci who wanted to invade Suessone territory.

    - Treveri "Those who travel past" : A powerfull tribe, were of germanic origin, but with a celtic culture, their territory was nowadays luxembourg and a part of Germany. They are supposed to have had the best Belgian cavalry. They were a divided people Cingetorix leading the pro-Rome clans and Undutiomaros the rebels.
    The atuatuci payed tribute to them.

    -Trinovantes: This tribe who became most powerfull settled in nowadays Essex and controlled a part of Suffolk.
    Their main territory was north/ east Londen, they were conquered by the Romans in the year 43.

    -Tungri: They got the territory of the Eburones after they were largely driven from their lands.
    Their capital is assumed to be nowadays Tongeren.

    -Veliocassi "The best in battle": They lived in nowadays Normandy. In 57 BC they send 10 000 men to join the fight against the Romans in 52BC they supported Vercingetorix and in 51BC formed a coaltion with the Atrebates, Ambiani, Caleti and Bellovaci.

    -Viromandui "Those who crush others" : Supposed to live in the area called Vermandois and near the Somme river. They had close ties with the suessiones. In 57BC they joined the big and several smaller coalitions against the Romans.

    This kinda decribes a few tribes of the Belgae during Ceasar's invasion of Gaul on their political stances, their heritage etc.
    Hope you enjoy the read and as caesar himself said "Of all Gauls the Belgians are the bravest!" hope they atleast get a bit attention in EBII.

    I'll write more now and then.

  22. #22
    Member Member asugrynd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Oh about the Poll, I'd say it could work out like the way it's done in EB.

    You got a powerfull family, with a leader "Blablarix" and in his traits you'd have him be a Bellovaci then his daughter marries with "Somethingos" who's from the atrebates, the traits could then have all sorts of bonuses etc. influencing how well certai ncharacters could do in certain provinces or so. Like don't stuff a Remi in an anti-rome tribe and all that.
    The choice shouldn't be which tribe we'd pick to play as it would be cooler to play ALL of them, but rather which tribe does the Belgic king his family come from.

    I think the Bellovaci due being very powerfull at that time and very warlike along with their allies are an excellent choice for that.
    Last edited by asugrynd; 12-28-2011 at 19:40.

  23. #23
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Well Ugo Janssens book, which I happen to know (being Belgian), is centered on the Bello Gallico and little else. He's not a specialist and the books is aimed at a non academic audience. Use very much with caution.

  24. #24
    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    the claims that the keltik looted delphi have always been exagerated it seems the phoecians (not confuse with phenicians please) had been borrowing gold and silver from the temple to finance their wars so when the keltik arrived they just blamed it on the keltoi even tough they never won the final batle and thus never set foot on delphi as conquerors but it gave the aiatolians a good excuse on why the gold offerings had vanished

  25. #25
    Member Member Ca Putt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    I think you mean the Greek tribe of the Phocians not to be confused with the Phoenicians aka carthagians.

    (sorry for being a spelling nitpick but in this case I thought it'd be excusable. :> )

    Other than that, I agree.

  26. #26
    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    ^
    |
    |
    what he said

  27. #27
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by asugrynd View Post

    -Catuvellauni "Leaders in battle" : In 40 BC they won territories from the atrebates in England, only in 50 BC the Romans conquered them, they lived north of Theems.

    -Trinovantes: This tribe who became most powerfull settled in nowadays Essex and controlled a part of Suffolk.
    Their main territory was north/ east Londen, they were conquered by the Romans in the year 43.:
    Thank you for your contribution to the thread and welcome to the EBII forum. As Moros said just be cautious about non-academic works. The two tribes I quoted above are not likely to be Belgic. They have been wrongly classed as Belgae for the last 150 years or so since the discovery of the Aylesford-Swarling culture in Britain. This culture which involves cremation, fine Belgic pottery and occurs in a region in which Gallo-Belgic coinage was used was previously thought to be evidence of the Belgic invasions of Britain which Caesar discusses, however since the 1960s these burials have been shown to be post-50BC, thus they cannot be the Belgae of Caesar. Instead it is far more likely that these tribes were either native Britons or that they were Marnian in origin, the Catuvellauni being related to the Gallic Catalauni and the Trinobantes/Trinovantes being either a pagus of the Catuvellaunian civitate or indigenous Britons.

    Thank you for your support of the Bellovaci, I just hope the powers that be are swayed by this thread.



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  28. #28
    Member Member asugrynd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    No problem, and thanks for the welcome. Well I did state the source just so everyone could see, if I might've been wrong atleast some people with more knowledge or expertise could point it out. It doesn't pay in history to take everything you see for granted after all.
    Well I can't contradict this, I like history, but I'm not a big authority on it unfortunately, just sharing my thoughts and trying to help. ^^

    Seems the Bellovaci are winning, lot of warlike players here it seems hehe.
    Let's hope the Belgic tribes get a good shot in the game.

  29. #29
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Quote Originally Posted by asugrynd View Post
    No problem, and thanks for the welcome. Well I did state the source just so everyone could see, if I might've been wrong atleast some people with more knowledge or expertise could point it out. It doesn't pay in history to take everything you see for granted after all.
    Well I can't contradict this, I like history, but I'm not a big authority on it unfortunately, just sharing my thoughts and trying to help. ^^

    Seems the Bellovaci are winning, lot of warlike players here it seems hehe.
    Let's hope the Belgic tribes get a good shot in the game.
    Any contribution is always welcome, just as long as you don't shout "Syracuse" or "Bartix" in the new factions thread. I think quite a few people share our desire to see the Belgae make it as a faction.



    donated by ARCHIPPOS for being friendly to new people.
    donated by Macilrille for wit.
    donated by stratigos vasilios for starting new and interesting threads
    donated by Tellos Athenaios as a welcome to Campus Martius


  30. #30
    Member Member asugrynd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brennus Belgian Bother

    Seems this thread has become a bit quiet, any news yet about the place of the Belgae in EB II?
    Or any interesting discoveries made? ^^
    Last edited by asugrynd; 04-14-2012 at 15:36.

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