EBO EDU Hotfix

[TheShakAttack]

Hey guys

I've made this thread to publicize and disseminate minor corrections to bugs/mistakes the EDU has. It will not contain any kind of significant change to the EDU. That remains within GG2 and Vartan's jurisdiction. For ease of reference, I will attach a letter after the relevant EDU reference, so for instance, the first one will be EDU 3.0 build 1001a.

For avoidance of doubt, later builds will incorporate changes made to earlier builds. So for instance build "c" will have changes made to "a" and "b" already in it.

Please find link for EDU build 1001d: http://www.mediafire.com/?hf2mrrjuaj98j78

Change log:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Build 1001a:
- First cohorts lethality increased from 0.13 to 0.15 (normal cohorts have 0.15, mistake confirmed with GG2)
- Rhodian slingers accuracy decreased from "perfect accuracy" to "high bullet accuracy" (no other missile units had "perfect" accuracy, mistake confirmed with GG2)

Build 1001b:
- Gallic General's Bodyguard given eagles.

Build 1001c:
- Mardian, Scytian and Sarmatian foot archers were statted as having horse archer accuracy. This has been changed. Scytian and Sarmation have been given "high" accuracy as they are steppe folks. Mardian (this may be controversial) has been given ultra high accuracy since their unit description says they were elite foot archers and were trained from birth.
-Bush elephants removed from all rosters.
-Forest elephants given to Rome.
-Towered forest elephants given to Ptoles.
-Also fixes a typo in the "projectiles" file which made lower tier javelin units very inaccurate. Value changed from 0.8 to .08.
- Pedites no longer have testudo formation.

Build 1001d:
- Speudogardoz no longer have phalanx mode nor long pikes. When removing phalanx, I believe it is also necessary to remove long_pike. In any case, EB would not start when only phalanx was removed. I think this might be broken as they still have something similar to phalanx mode. Please check and let me know.
- All gladius wielding units have been given 0.16 lethality as was GG2's intention; specifically, the following did not have them and now do: mercenary Dunaminaca, Polybian Principes, First Cohorts from both eras, Imperial and Marian cohort.
- The projectile file has not been changed, but is included for ease of use.

If there are any other mistakes or minor issues that need to be addressed, please post below.

Also, I am happy to change things in the EDU as long as there is near unanimous consent:
-with at least 5 regular players:
1) requesting the change;
2) agreeing that it is a "hotfix" issue and needs to be changed immediately;
3) agreeing to and specifying the changes to be made (for instance the specific stat numbers);
-no more than 1 person disagreeing to it ;
-it is within my skillset to do so; and
-I do not consider it a "major" change (lies within my discretion :P).

Keep in mind that even if I do change it, GG2/Vartan or the community as a whole can always request the change be overturned.


GG2/Vartan- if anything has been incorrectly identified as a mistake let me know and I will amend.

Legacy builds:
EDU 3.0 build 1001c: http://www.mediafire.com/?ulstnk12t4snzcf
EDU 3.0 build 1001b: http://www.mediafire.com/?bban2bltkcqwi43

[The Celtic Viking]

Gallic general's bodyguard should have inspire.

[TheShakAttack]

Updated. Thanks TCV.

[Lazy O]

What about cata fear?

[TheShakAttack]

Lazy- that's not a "minor issue" nor an "oversight". AFAIK GG2 is making a fear overhaul. Wait for that.

[gamegeek2]

This is very much appreciated. The fear overhaul has been implemented, as has the Bosporan mod; I need to add the Saka though.

[vartan]

This is very much appreciated. The fear overhaul has been implemented, as has the Bosporan mod; I need to add the Saka though.

Could you elaborate?

[Arjos]

One thing, I didn't fully understand the deal with Bush and Forest elephants, but shouldn't the indian ones still be superior?
If so the Elephantes Liboukoi should have its stats lowered, or the Indikoi increased...

[TheShakAttack]

One thing, I didn't fully understand the deal with Bush and Forest elephants, but shouldn't the indian ones still be superior?
If so the Elephantes Liboukoi should have its stats lowered, or the Indikoi increased...

I agree Arjos, however, I would prefer GG2 to do it since it would involve tweaking the stats and a whole load of balance issues.

[vartan]

I think it's a very pressing issue, though, because you see elephants in every single battle, invariably. We must fix this now.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Uh, elephants are making a comeback Vartan. I think the historical battles showed how awesome they can be if used properly.

Anyway, Bush Elephants would be the most powerful, they would also be the most prone to routing or running amok since afaik we have no sources for them being used by any successor kingdom and they would be the least "trainable." Forest ellies are already weaker than Indians. Indians have better morale I think unless this was changed for the MP edu.

[TheShakAttack]

I would be happy to implement any suggestions you guys have for eles. I would agree with Robin's assessment. Bush eles should be the most "powerful" with the lowest morale (afaik morale is what makes units prone to routing or running amok) and also incredibly expensive; Indian/Asian eles have the highest morale and "power levels" close to bush eles; Forest eles poorer morale than Indian/Asian eles as well as being less powerful.

I would even go so far as to say that from a historical perspective the costs for Indian/Asian eles should be at least equal to, if not lower, than Forest eles. This is primarily because I/A eles were a lot more receptive to training, and the "training facilities" of I/A eles was well established, had (even by EB timeline) a long-ish history and was relatively widespread (they were used as beasts of burden as well), certianly more so than forest eles it seems. Being more populous, they were also easier to come across/capture. The big question would be in terms of gameplay balance.

This could be implemented by making F eles more expensive rather than making I/A eles cheaper.

I/A eles (both of them) have 10 morale compared to 8 for forest and bush and 9 for towered forest eles. I don't really think that +2/+1 differentiates them enough from a historical perspective, but obv its upto the community as whole to to make a decision on its gameplay/balance value.

[-Stormrage-]

what about the Descr_Projectile_new file issue where one jav had accuracy of 0.8 while all others had 0.0(something) Ex. 0.07 0.06 0.08.

and should Cretans and bosphorans have the same accuracy ?

[TheShakAttack]

what about the Descr_Projectile_new file issue where one jav had accuracy of 0.8 while all others had 0.0(something) Ex. 0.07 0.06 0.08.

and should Cretans and bosphorans have the same accuracy ?

Hey Storm

I will check with GG2 whether the correct value should be .08 re javelins. AFAIK GG2 is also making big changes both to Bosphorans and Cretans. So for now, I think we should leave them, and wait until new EDU release from GG2.

[Arjos]

Anyway, Bush Elephants would be the most powerful, they would also be the most prone to routing or running amok since afaik we have no sources for them being used by any successor kingdom and they would be the least "trainable."

I think you are confusing the modern bush elephant with the extinct ancient one, which was similar in size to the forest elephant...

Great King Ptolemy, son of King Ptolemy [II Philadelphus] and Queen Arsinoe, the Brother- and Sister Gods, the children of King Ptolemy [I Soter] and Queen Berenice the Savior Gods, descendant on the paternal side of Heracles the son of Zeus, on the maternal of Dionysus the son of Zeus, having inherited from his father the kingdom of Egypt and Libya and Syria and Phoenicia and Cyprus and Lycia and Caria and the Cyclades islands, led a campaign into Asia with infantry and cavalry and fleet and Troglodytic and Ethiopian elephants, which he and his father were the first to hunt from these lands and, bringing them back into Egypt, to fit out for military service.

These are the elephants used at Raphia, and the Elephantes Liboukoi should be statted accordingly...

[The Celtic Viking]

Since I can't chirp in on any of the real historical stuff, I'll lessen my penis envy () by correcting a smaller "historical" mistake:

Uh, elephants are making a comeback Vartan. I think the historical battles showed how awesome they can be if used properly.

No, I think I can take the credit for their resurgence, as they started making appearances after I had my 956-ish Katatank kills game, which was some time before the 1st HB.

[TheShakAttack]

Historically, I would agree with you. Wiki does not have anything recorded for a seperate subspecies of african eles that existed only in ethiopia/somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loxodonta#Classification), only one for "Carthaginian/ North African elephants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_elephant)" which may have been a subspecies of bush elephants. Given that its range extended down to the present Sudanese and Eritrean coasts, it is almost certain that these should be the ones being refered to. This extinct subspecies/species was indeed smaller than Indian eles.

The wiki link even describes these NA/C eles as the ones that Ptoles and Carth used in battle.

However, here is the EB description of the "bush ele". Note that they are described as larger than indian eles (which the C/NA ele was not). Also note that it says they were even harder to train than forest eles which seems like a reference to modern "bush" elephants whereas apparently the C/NA eles were likely easier to tame than forest elephants (not indian/asian ones). In any event, they are statted and modeled as if they were larger than indian eles.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Captured on the plains of Ethiopia and surrounding lands, Bush elephants provide the armies of the Ptolemaioi and Qarthadastim with a fearsome advantage. Larger than their Forest cousins and even those of distant India they tower over anyone and anything on the battlefield and to those not accustomed to fighting elephants a sight that fills their hearts with fear. The expenses required to capture, train and maintain bush elephants are high, so their numbers will never be great...

Troglodytiki [rascist!] was what the ancient Hellenes called modern Somalia and it makes distinct mention of two types of elephants. There is also evidence implying that the Carthaginians imported Bush Elephants across the desert for their own armies from Ethiopia or possibly directly from the Ptolemaioi. Compared to their Forest cousins the Bush elephants were much harder to train which is probably why they weren't used in substantial numbers compared to the Indian & Forest elephants. Another reason might be that because of their larger size they were harder to transport back to Egypt which included ferrying elephants along the Erythrean Sea in specially crafted "elephant-carriers".

Either the EB guys got it pretty wrong, or wiki has it pretty wrong. I would go with Arjos' interpretation since that seems more factually accurate, but as always, the floor is open to everyone to pitch in.

[TheShakAttack]

Since I can't chirp in on any of the real historical stuff, I'll lessen my penis envy () by correcting a smaller "historical" mistake:



No, I think I can take the credit for their resurgence, as they started making appearances after I had my 956-ish Katatank kills game, which was some time before the 1st HB.

Twas the HB for me :P

And enough with referring to the 956-ish kill game already.

[Arjos]

Maybe that unit is the product of misplacement of the modern elephant...
A solution could be to replace it with the Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi, which so far only the Kartadastim can recruit...

[TheShakAttack]

Maybe that unit is the product of misplacement of the modern elephant...
A solution could be to replace it with the Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi, which so far only the Kartadastim can recruit...

Yes, I agree that it could have been mistaken with the modern bush ele.

In any event, I'm happy with your proposal. Sounds historically sound.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'd agree with this proposal since the Bush elephants in game are represented as larger than the Indians. But can we give the Ptolies ownership of this unit?

[The Celtic Viking]

Yes, I tried it out earlier and it worked fine.

[TheShakAttack]

Yes ofc Ptoles would get access.

[Arjos]

The kings of my own country [Egypt] alone had an army consisting of 200,000 foot, 40,000 horse, 300 war elephants, and 2,000 armed chariots, and arms in reserve for 300,000 soldiers more. This was their force for land service. ... Such was the state of preparedness for war shown by the royal accounts as recorded and left by the king of Egypt second in succession after Alexander, who was the most formidable of these rulers in his preparations, the most lavish in expenditure, and the most magnificent in projects.

Harmata Drepanephora for the Ptolemaioi please :P

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

This would be Ptolemy I's army. Are there any records of scythed chariots being used in battle by the Ptollies in our time frame?

[Arjos]

This would be Ptolemy I's army. Are there any records of scythed chariots being used in battle by the Ptollies in our time frame?

Nope that would be Philadelphos ^^
Also is at the end of his rule, so it's 246 BC...

[Lazy O]

Since I can't chirp in on any of the real historical stuff, I'll lessen my penis envy () by correcting a smaller "historical" mistake:



No, I think I can take the credit for their resurgence, as they started making appearances after I had my 956-ish Katatank kills game, which was some time before the 1st HB.

True. But these guys are bugged. They dont die to javelins.

[TheShakAttack]

True. But these guys are bugged. They dont die to javelins.

Et tu lazy?

They're not bugged- just harder to kill.

[The Celtic Viking]

True. But these guys are bugged. They dont die to javelins.

Yes, they do. They just don't drop as if hit by lightning, like all other ellies do, which makes sense because unlike all other ellies, these are armoured. If you misplay these buggers, or if your enemy simply counters them correctly, they're gone in less than 2 seconds.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Nope that would be Philadelphos ^^
Also is at the end of his rule, so it's 246 BC...

Ah I misread the second in succession part. Thought it meant second ruler of Egypt while counting Alexander as the first.