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Thread: EBO EDU Hotfix

  1. #91

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin View Post
    Speudogardoz I believe. Please remove phalanx mode.
    Yes, that's it. Thanks. Also, digging through the other 3.0 thread, it appears that all gladius hisp. weapons should get 0.16 lethality. It's silly that atm Velites have it, but first cohorts don't. I will fix this.
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  2. #92

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    EDU updated. Please find it attached in original post.
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  3. #93
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Mardians should cost at least 992 Mnai now, applicating one level of increased incuracy. This way they have the right price relativley to other steppe archers as scythians.

    Speutagardaz should become +1 attack/+1 defense, because they got both reduced becuase of phalanx mode (at least it should be that way). Spacing needs correction too perhaps, but I don't know what whould be the correct values here (1.2 as heavy infantry?).
    Last edited by Kival; 11-27-2011 at 17:47.

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  4. #94
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    They actually have slightly closer ranks in the non-GG2 edu when in close formation, so for that I'd say it's fine (their description says they fought in a very dense formation). In loose formation they are closer now though, but I don't know if that's only for when they were phalanx or not.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 11-27-2011 at 18:55.

  5. #95
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    I think we can worry about re-balancing the Speduos when gg2 releases the new edu. I just didn't want them around in their ridiculously OP state for current play. Though maybe the same should apply to Cohortes Evocata? They need to be priced as top tier units or have their effectiveness reduced.
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  6. #96
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin View Post
    I think we can worry about re-balancing the Speduos when gg2 releases the new edu.
    Attack and defense is not a balancing thing. The side-effect of giving phalanx in the EDU-system Gamegeek is using, is reducing attack and defense by 1. So if we take phalanx off, we need to give them back this two points. The spacing thing is not so important for now. I agree.

    Re: Cohors Evocata

    I will try to see if they are priced correctly.
    Last edited by Kival; 11-27-2011 at 21:29.

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  7. #97

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Cool. I agree that Evocata is possibly too OP. I think GG2 gave them some sort of discount, so you might want to double check with him Kival.
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  8. #98
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    I've made some analysis which showed some problems but essentially, cohors evocata are priced in the same way as the other marian units. The problem cannot be solved without changing the system for all marian units.
    Last edited by Kival; 11-28-2011 at 05:46.

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  9. #99
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Guys evocata aren't OP, they are basically Rome at its military zenit in our time period...
    They are veterans of the most professional unit there is around, of the largest and richest nation around...
    Last edited by Arjos; 11-28-2011 at 10:30.

  10. #100
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Aye, I just find them somewhat cheap compared to other similar units. I do think the Auxiliary Hispanic Cavalry could use a price bump however. I mean, we always see Roman players in the time frame bringing these guys and they compare favorably to their Carthaginian and Luso equivalents with not all that much more of a price bump for wearing mail and a metal helmet.
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  11. #101
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Economically speaking in historical terms, I think that the Iberian mercenary would even cost more than the enlisted poor provincial Hispanic...

  12. #102
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Mercenaries would supply their own arms and be experienced fighters generally while statwise the "poor provincials" are considerably better. A poor provincial Hispanic would also not see the light of day in a cavalry contingent. I don't think the Romans supplied horses to Spaniards, Gauls and Germans. These men would be coming from the upper classes of society and still be rather expensive to outfit as medium cavalry.

    Nontheless, you can't generalize all Iberian units for Carthage and the Lusos as mercenaries since some were recruited as allies. And even so, costs are generally done on a gameplay basis as far as I am aware with a few exceptions.
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  13. #103
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    As you said one would require a pay to cover all his expenditures, while the other just his promised wager...
    And as for the upper class, they would be legates, and most of all usually they were "political hostages", that's even cheaper to employ :D

    Sure some joined the Kartadastim as allies, but that was on the promise of more loot for them, none of those Iberians would even care for carthaginian citizenship, they were hired warriors, that's their life...

    My point was that historically, the auxilia would even cost less, in our gameplay balancing process, giving them a slighty superior cost is more than reasonable, as it covers the high quality equipment and the more resources available to the SPQR...

  14. #104
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    I think that the Auxiliary Cavalry contingents are supplying their own equipment. The Spanish helms, framaea of the Germans, or longer cavalry swords of the Thracians were hardly Roman equipment at this point in time. I believe the Imperial Alae cavalry units represent the standardizing of cavalry equipment to match that of the legions. As such, these auxiliaries would have to be rather well off to afford such things.

    Also, the very "cream" of the nobility were taken as hostages, but men of high birth would still be expected to serve the Roman bureaucratic/governmental machine in the region and fight alongside the legions. Rome did not raise levies of Iberian or Gallic men but instead they were trained to operate alongside the legionary arm. Also by the time Marius reformed the army, parts of Iberia and Cisalpine Gaul had been under Roman control for about 100 years. I'm not so sure these regions required hostages in such large numbers anymore as to deprive the region of their traditional elites.
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  15. #105
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    I was more about the armours, which was really the only difference in equipment between a local and an auxiliaris pretty much...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin View Post
    Also by the time Marius reformed the army, parts of Iberia and Cisalpine Gaul had been under Roman control for about 100 years. I'm not so sure these regions required hostages in such large numbers anymore as to deprive the region of their traditional elites.
    Indeed, they were quite romanized by then and demanded rights, or jumped on any rebellion train available...

  16. #106

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    ...The point of all of the discussion above being?
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  17. #107
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Enjoying a discussion :D

    Raising the question: are auxilia too cheap?

    In order to open a further discussion...
    This is 100% legislative action going on :P

  18. #108
    Unbowed Unbent Unbroken Member Lazy O's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Yes :P

    Though, for the Hispanics, I would say the closest unit (in function) is the Cantabrian Cavalry which costs a mere 1.9k or something while the Hispanics are considerably more expensive but also far far better.


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  19. #109
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Don't they have only superior armour?
    For the rest I thought they had the same stats except the Cantabrae and Iberians have better missile attack...

  20. #110

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy O View Post
    Yes :P

    Though, for the Hispanics, I would say the closest unit (in function) is the Cantabrian Cavalry which costs a mere 1.9k or something while the Hispanics are considerably more expensive but also far far better.
    Hispanic cav 2376, cantabrian cav 1956 lazy hispanic cav cost 420 mnai more, also they are not so better than cantabrian cav as you said, and yes i counted this with calculator....

  21. #111

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Haha, thats good to know Vega :p

    Btw guys, this is not really the place to talk about making things more expensive for game balancing purposes; however, if you feel there was an error on pricing, then by all means bring that up though.....and on that note, the hispanic cav is over 20% more expensive than the cant. cavalry. I think what makes them useful is that they have a "unique" set of stats (ie. a heavier armored version of cant. cav) rather than being "too cheap". In other words, they have no equivalent in terms of similar stats.
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  22. #112
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Most similar unit would be Iberi Equites Caetrati who are similar to Cantabrians but have slightly more armor.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type iberian skirmisher cavalry equites caetratii
    dictionary iberian_skirmisher_cavalry_equites_caetratii ; Iberi Equites Caetrati
    category cavalry
    class missile
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier iberian_cavalry_equitescaetratii_hippakontistai, 30, 0, 1
    mount saddle horse light
    mount_effect elephant +1, chariot +2, horse +1
    attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, cantabrian_circle, very_hardy
    formation 3, 4, 6, 6, 5, square
    stat_health 1, 2
    stat_pri 10, 15, javelin_m, 57.8, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
    stat_pri_attr thrown
    stat_sec 11, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 2, 10, 3, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 11, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 2042, 462, 30, 50, 2042
    ownership egypt, spain, slave


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type roman cavalry auxilia equiteshispanorum
    dictionary roman_cavalry_auxilia_equiteshispanorum ; Eqvites Hispanorvm (Hispanic Auxiliary Cavalry)
    category cavalry
    class missile
    voice_type General_1
    soldier iberian_cavalry_equitescaetratii_hippakontistai, 30, 0, 1
    officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
    mount medium horse
    mount_effect elephant +1, chariot +2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, cantabrian_circle, hide_long_grass, very_hardy
    formation 2, 4, 4, 6, 5, square
    stat_health 1, 1
    stat_pri 10, 21, javelin_m, 57.8, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
    stat_pri_attr thrown
    stat_sec 11, 21, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 9, 9, 3, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 3
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 11, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 2376, 588, 56, 241, 2376
    ownership seleucid


    About 300 price difference for +7 armor and -1 defense skill. This seems too small to me especially considering the Roman unit gets an officer. Also compare to the differently purposed, but similarly equipped (in terms of armor rating and region of origin) Iberi Curisi:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type iberian cavalry light curisii
    dictionary iberian_cavalry_light_curisii ; Iberi Curisi
    category cavalry
    class light
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier iberian_cavalry_curisii, 30, 0, 1
    officer ebofficer_lusitanian_carthaginian_officer
    mount saddle horse light
    mount_effect chariot +1
    attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, very_hardy
    formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 1
    stat_pri 4, 33, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 250 ,0.38
    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.14
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 7, 11, 3, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 13, disciplined, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 2845, 710, 40, 60, 2845
    ownership egypt, spain, slave


    These have a spear, and so are differently purposed and might be considered higher tier with +1 melee attack and two higher morale. But their armor rating is again lower and yet cost about 600 more. There seems to be an issue here. Shouldn't the Romans be somewhere in between in terms of both effectiveness and price?
    Last edited by Brave Brave Sir Robin; 11-28-2011 at 19:48.
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  23. #113
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Okay I'll check their costs but I'm quite sure the costs for them are calculated correctly. Note: Iberi cursis are one tier higher unit, that's why they cost more.
    Last edited by Kival; 11-28-2011 at 20:05.

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  24. #114
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Do you want me to move the cavalry pricing discussion to a new thread?
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  25. #115
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Do you want me to move the cavalry pricing discussion to a new thread?
    Maybe split it off into the 3.0 edu discussion thread if that is possible. That would be helpful. But then again, this isn't my thread
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  26. #116

    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Lol, this part is fine, since Robin brings up a legitimate point +7 armor costs only 300 mnai- possible costing error? Esp since post marian and imperial romans get a cav cost penalty (increase) iirc. We should however note that the documentation for costing is not up-to-date nor does it include an example of how costing is worked out. I will post a request for this in other thread.

    It's the "these guys are too OP" and should be changed (mostly if not purely) for gameplay reasons that doesn't really fit scope of this thread.
    Last edited by TheShakAttack; 11-29-2011 at 00:21.
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  27. #117
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Quote Originally Posted by Kival View Post
    Okay I'll check their costs but I'm quite sure the costs for them are calculated correctly. Note: Iberi cursis are one tier higher unit, that's why they cost more.
    Relatively to the iberian light cav the iberian auxilariy seem's to be priced correctly. Chainmail + metal helmet cost 0,75 points in the system. Multiplied by 6,225 and 60 it's 280. Bringing in the 5 % additional cost for marian cav we land somewhere near 300. Though I'm not able at all to recalculate the absolute price of cav units. Theis seems to be a hidden factor not mentioned in the documentaiton.

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  28. #118
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    Let's compare the Germanic Auxiliary cav which cost 2666 to the mercenary German cav which costs 2292. Difference is +2 armor and +2 morale for auxiliary version and yet the difference in price is larger than +7 armor of the Hispanic Auxilia. I'm not so sure the 2 extra morale points are worth more than +5 armor...
    In my opinion, armor is the single most important stat in game, especially once fear units are removed. I'm a little unclear on how the costs are determined so maybe someone can help me out here.
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  29. #119
    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    In this special case I've no idea how the price of the germanic auxilariy is determined. The price increase is obviously not heavily based on the armour. 5 Armour does not cost much however it is determined. The morale increase is not specified in the Documentation.

    In general morale if you did not get it by some unknown modifcation is based on the tier of the unit. The tier of the unit is normally the strongest price defining factor.

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  30. #120
    Unbowed Unbent Unbroken Member Lazy O's Avatar
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    Default Re: EBO EDU Hotfix

    In short, they are overpriced :D


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