EBO EDU Hotfix

[Arjos]

Doesn't the cost of those units reflect as I said the more resources available to the SPQR? And by opposite the extreme luxury that cavalry was for the Swebozez?

[TheShakAttack]

Well, in a historical sense I would agree with you Arjos. However, in this particular EDU, the system that has been adopted by GG2 for costing makes it clear that it is a two step process:

1) All units are costed "equally/indiscriminately" for certain characteristics : their tier (which influences morale, unit numbers etc), equipment, stamina etc. Therefore, at this stage of the process, a unit with identical characteristics, lets say a cataphract, costs the same for any faction, be it rome or sweboz (if they had one) or Parthia/Hai.

2) The next step is to apply factional bonuses/discounts/penalties. This is where the cavalry costs less for Parthia/Hai/Sauro.

Therefore the only thing that really distinguishes units costs from faction to faction is the faction bonus/malus. There "should" be no other kind of arbitrary decision making involved. Unfortunately, our knowledge of all the factional bonus/malus is not complete as the "Documentation 3.0" file is a bit outdated. If I am not mistaken, there is some kind of a cost reduction applied for auxiliary units (which was applied after the latest documentation update).

If you have a look at the documentation file, as pointed out by Kiv, the biggest factor in terms of cost is the "tier" of the unit: this determines morale, unit numbers etc. Armor actually does not play a very significant role in terms of costing it seems. Whether this is appropriate is another matter entirely, and a discussion best conducted elsewhere.

For further information on costing, I defer to Kiv as he is the costing "expert" (aside from GG2 ofc) and has some experience in "costing" units and what little I know is under his guidance.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Doesn't the cost of those units reflect as I said the more resources available to the SPQR? And by opposite the extreme luxury that cavalry was for the Swebozez?

Well I brought up the comparison to strike the difference between the Iberi Equites Caetrati and Auxiliary Hispanics on one side, and the Mercenary German Cavalry and Auxiliary Germans on the other. In one instance, there is a significant armor difference between the two Spaniard cavalry units (with a minor +1 defense skill for the native equivalent) and yet a price difference of around 300 mnai. On the other hand, we have two units differing by 3 armor and 2 morale and yet the price difference is approximately 400. As with what Shak said, since morale (and by that tier) is the most determining cost factor (something I don't necessarily agree with), this makes some sense but I think maybe we should discuss this back in the 3.0 thread.

[TheShakAttack]

Thanks Robin :)

Also, I just want to clarify, I am not terribly familiar with costing, but from a quick glance, it seems the "tier system" is what influences cost the most. This includes morale, but also things such as attack and defense skill.

[Kival]

In short, they are overpriced :D

No, I can't say that.

Fix proposals:

- Mardian Archers need a price fix (including accuracy bonus of one level): 992 mnai.
- Speutagardaz need to get +1 Att/+1 Def. They lost them, when they became phalangitai.
- Fist marian cohot needs a price fix (including their stamina bonus, which is not applicated at the moment): 2677

[vartan]

Historicity is a near-top priority for unit stats. The ultimate source for pricing, on the other hand, is "gameplay" (i.e., the stats themselves; historicity becomes an indirect source).

[TheShakAttack]

Historicity is a near-top priority for unit stats. The ultimate source for pricing, on the other hand, is "gameplay" (i.e., the stats themselves; historicity becomes an indirect source).

Makes sense and sounds good.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Indo-hellenic peltasts need skirmish mode back. They aren't toss and charge style infantry.

[Arjos]

Leukanoi should be the same or not?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Leukanoi should be the same or not?

Possbily. They weren't classified as skirmishers in the original EB but I would be fine with that as they are very similar to Indo-Hellenics statwise.

[Kival]

I think there was one or two other units missing skirm ability, too. Also the roman lucani need 100 men, too. Actually I don't see any need for two different lucanian units at all.

[TheShakAttack]

Ok, thus far I have the following:

Skirmish mode for the indo-hellenic peltasts
Lucani = 100 men

Possibles:
Cost corrections
Skirmish mode for Lucani

[Kival]

Don't forget the att/def +1 for the germanic pikemen.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think the Romans have a unique skin for Lucanians too. I know it doesn't matter that much but maybe they should get that unit instead of the merc one and leave that for Carthage. Its an aesthetic thing.

[TheShakAttack]

Waaaaay beyond my skillset :)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Don't mind this.

[The Celtic Viking]

No, the other is listed for Epeiros, Carthage and KH. I tried it anyway - gave a peasant symbol and a crash.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Yeah I just tried it as you posted this too. I was wrong, confused the KH version and Roman version. I remembered the red shields and thought they were Roman.

[The Celtic Viking]

Another thing you might want to do is to give Golberi Curoas very_hardy and lower their cost to 1472 so that they're equal to and cost the same as Bataroas, instead of being inferior but more expensive as they are right now. Not a big thing either, but someone (me!) might like a more diverse look of the army.

[Kival]

The idea might be to make the mercenary version more expensive. I could agree with that, they should have highter stats then though. Also they should be made recruitable for all the factions, who used celtic mercaneries. At least carthage and epirotes should get them, especially Epirotes should have the possibility to use a celtic longsword unit. It's rather strange to make the spearmen merceneries than the more professional sword wielders.

[TheShakAttack]

Sounds like a good idea, but more of a "suggestion for improvement of gameplay" rather than fixing an error.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'm not sure that I would give Epeiros the Northern Gallic merc. Rather the Southern Gallic merc. The northern ones represent Transalpine Gauls while the Southern ones represent Cisalpine Gauls as well as those Celts living in Central Europe. These would be more accessible to Epeiros as mercenaries. Maybe Carthage and Rome can get the Northern variant.

[Kival]

Sure, I did not remember the other southern merc version. It's not a fix though, so let's bring it on in the other thread instead.

[The Celtic Viking]

It's rather strange to make the spearmen merceneries than the more professional sword wielders.

*Cough* Boii Cingetos *cough* Galatikoi Kluddolon *cough*

[Kival]

*Cough* Boii Cingetos *cough* Galatikoi Kluddolon *cough*

Can epirotes use boii? However, shortswordmen are still less professional than longswordmen.

By the way boii swords should have more lethality then normal shortswords. At least at gladius level, perhaps at the level of the weapon of the karians.

[Arjos]

I agree for Kluddolon and Curoas, but Kingetoi nah, too high in Boii's social classes...

[Kival]

Kingetoi are not shortswordmen, especially not in this sense. Actually I don't know why EB gave them other swords than longswords but they are surely not described as usual shortswords:

In a melee, their swords are of excellent use, being highly versatile with a good slashing edge and a tapered point, good for thrusting or finding a weak spot in an enemy's armor.

Further, compared to most other Celts, the Boii are more prone to stricter discipline, tempered by centuries of incessant combat with neighbors.

That also obviously means, they should have higher morale, especially discipline but less charge.

[The Celtic Viking]

Can epirotes use boii? However, shortswordmen are still less professional than longswordmen.

Yes, and how do you figure that longsword would automatically mean more professional than shortswords? I would think the Boii Cingetos to be at least as professional than the Enoci Curoas.

[Kival]

Yes, and how do you figure that longsword would automatically mean more professional than shortswords? I would think the Boii Cingetos to be at least as professional than the Enoci Curoas.

See above, Boii are not really shortsword wielders. But in the celtic society in general, shortswords were used by the youth and unexperienced warriors. Boii might be an exception insofar as they did not use longswords at all, what I can not really believe (but I would not change this design decisions).

[Arjos]

It says that their swords could thrust, longswords have blunt tips, anyway even ingame is not that short...