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Thread: Factions of HRTW

  1. #1
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Factions of HRTW

    Ok here we will decide as a team which factions will be included in our mod. For now what we want to do with the mod is still undecided so I will list every possible faction that I can think of from Scotland to India, and give a brief description of each. I will list each faction by chances of them making the mod. Also I'm basing the time frame off 280 BC, if we decide to change that date I will update this thread
    Final Faction List
    1. The Roman Republic
    2. The Republic of Carthage
    3. The Seleucid Empire
    4. The Ptolemaic Empire
    5. The Antigonid Kingdom
    6. The Odrysian Kingdom
    7. The Kingdom of Pontus
    8. The Kingdom of Armenia
    9. The Kingdom of Epirus
    10. The Aetolian League
    11. The Bosporan Kingdom
    12. Parthia
    13. Numidia
    14. Gauls
    15. Germans
    16. Britons
    17. Iberians
    18. Sarmatians
    19. Illyrians
    20. Free People
    21. Rebels

    Now it gets harder. Here are other candidates for Kingdoms around the time)
    The Bosporan Kingdom - alive and well at this time
    The Kingdom of Atropatene - was around since 320's BC but there is not much information on them
    The Kingdom of Cappadocia - can't tell if they were independant or not in 280 BC
    The Kingdom of Bithynia - Was a growing power at this time
    The Kingdom of Iberia - Not Iberia Spain, but north of Armenia. Was a new kingdom about 20 years old but was very strong under it's King
    Colchis - Never was really unified
    Palmyra - Was actually an Independant City. The Seleucids left it alone when they took over Syria
    The Nabataean Kingdom - Nabataeans were around, but it did not become a Kingdom until 168 BC
    The Hasmonean Kingdom - did not become fully independant until 110 BC
    The Kingdom of Bactria - Appeared in 256 BC (only if we have extended map)
    The Indo-Greek Kingdom - was actually many small states fighting each other. Did not appear until 180 BC (only if we have extended map)
    The Kingdom of Epirus - alive and well, played major role in 280 BC
    Pergamum - Baby state. Formed one year before mod starts
    Aetolian League - Strong at the time
    Achaean League - Weak at the time but got stronger
    Cyrene - was independant under Mago
    Syracuse - Major Power in Sicily
    Sparta - Was still around, getting stronger
    Numidia - was not a kingdom yet, instead were two tribes fighting each other
    Mauretania - small kingdom at the time
    Parthia - was a nomadic people at the time but immensely strong (only if we have extended map)
    Mauryan Empire - would be misrepresented since they controlled all of India (only if we have extend map)
    Saba - Arabian Kingdom
    Ethiopia - African Kingdom

    Greek City States that were independent
    Athens
    Argos
    Rhodes
    Naxos
    Kydonia
    Byzantium
    Sinope
    Chersonesus
    Olbia
    Massilia
    other minor cities

    Barbarians
    Gauls - Helvetii, Insubres, Aedui, Arverni, Remi, Pictones, Belgae, Aquitani, Sequani etc
    Germans - Chatti, Cimbri, Teutones, Chauci, Eburones, Marcomanni, Quadi, Goths etc
    Iberians - Turdetani, Luistani etc
    Britons - Casse, Trinovates, Atrebates etc
    Dacians
    Thracians
    Illyrians
    Scythians
    Sarmatians
    Galatians
    Noricum
    Celt-Iberians
    Tylis
    Eastern Celts
    Bastarnae
    Massagetae
    Sakae

    We have many factions to choose from everyone.

    I suggest we think deeply about it. I have most of the list in my head but it's tough!

    I will come up with some lists and I will post them, I think we can make an accurate faction list. We must decide on a map though.

    Here is my first proposal:
    280 BC Extended map, cut off before India and before Arabia, meaning no Indian, Arabian, or African factions

    1. The Roman Republic
    2. The Republic of Carthage
    3. The Seleucid Empire
    4. The Ptolemaic Empire
    5. The Antigonid Kingdom
    6. The Kingdom of Thrace
    7. The Kingdom of Pontus
    8. The Kingdom of Armenia
    9. The Kingdom of Epirus
    10. Parthia
    11. Sarmatians
    12. Dacians
    13. Gauls
    14. Germans
    15. Iberians
    16. Independent Greek City States (Athens, Rhodes, Syracuse, Tarentum, Croton, Massilia, Sinope, Chersonesus, Olbia, Byzantium)
    17. Hellenic Kingdoms (Sparta, Pergamum, Cyrene, Bosporans, Bactria)
    18. Celts or Celtic Tribes (Celt-Iberians, Noricum, Galatians, Tylis, Belgae)
    19. Barbarians - bad name needs better one (Illyrians, Thracians, Britons, Luistani, Ligurians, Massagetae, Goths)
    20. Independent Kingdoms - (Bithynia, Cappadocia, Nabataeans, Numidians, Iberia, Atropatene, Palmyra)
    21. Rebels

    I don't think this list is good. It would work, as we could do what XGM did and make provincial campaigns, but it seems too messy. There are still some factions that should get represented better than by a super faction.

    I will keep brain storming. You guys should come up with your own lists as well


    ***FACTION LIST #2***
    1. The Roman Republic
    2. The Republic of Carthage
    3. The Seleucid Empire
    4. The Ptolemaic Empire
    5. The Antigonid Kingdom
    6. The Odrysian Kingdom (Thrace) (Or Illyrians)
    7. The Kingdom of Epirus (This faction will be in, it has to be no matter what)
    8. The Bosporan Kingdom (Or Bactria)
    9. Parthia
    10. Numidia (Or Mauretania)
    11. The Kingdom of Pontus
    12. The Kingdom of Armenia
    13. Gallic Faction (Yet to be completely determined)
    14. Britons
    15. Dacians (Or Illyrians)
    16. Sarmatians
    17. German Faction (I like Suebi Idea, what about Cimbri?)
    18. Iberians (Or Celt-Iberians)
    19. Sparta (Everyone likes Sparta, it's historical, and can have goal of unifying the Greeks)
    20. Free People (Second Rebel Faction, similar to Roma Surrectum)
    21. Rebels
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-19-2012 at 14:45.

  2. #2
    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW [Please Sticky]

    The Rebels are already standing in for the Independent Kingdoms/Peoples; I think that given the faction limit at 21 we have to really exploit that by giving them lots of AoR/hidden resource units only recruitable by them in certain places, to try and balance things out in order for them to better represent the "mini-factions", but I don't think two rebel factions is necessarily better. Here's my suggestion - obviously my impulse is to make as many barbarian factions as possible, but that's not very likely to appeal to anyone else so I have limited myself. :P

    Mediterranean civilisations
    1. Rome
    2. Carthage
    3. Seleucids
    4. Egypt
    5. Macedon
    6. Thrace
    20. Greek Cities

    Eastern
    7. Pontus
    8. Armenia
    9. Parthia
    10. Nabataea

    Barbarians
    12. Sarmatians
    13. Dacia/Getae
    14. Gauls/Celts (includes the entire Gaulish-Celtic nation, but excluding Britain/Ireland and Spain who were all a bit different)
    15. Suebi (the largest Germanic tribe; starts out in South Prussia area but should have the capacity to expand West to the Rhine before the Gauls in order to be able to rival them. A "Germans" faction is inappropriate as they had no such large-scale common identity at this time, that only emerged during the Roman Iron Age.)
    16. Iberians
    17. Celtiberians (Spain was in a sort of extreme turmoil during this period, in a constant state of warfare, not just at the tribal or national level but even between individual hillfort cities and clans. It was also extremely mineral-rich and had a large and fast-growing population, and it took the Romans three hundred years to conquer. Three factions in Spain is really the minimum. The Celtiberians were a logical choice. The Lusitanians become a Rebel minifaction, and the Basque/Aquitanians go with the Iberians.)
    18. Britons (I don't think choosing a single tribe could possibly represent the whole of Britain, and Britons did recognise a loose common identity, they lived on a certain island and had certain cultural traits that others didn't - much like the Greeks, they recognised their common culture but weren't exactly united.)
    19. Numidia

    21. Rebels


    That leaves 11. for anyone I've forgotten: I was thinking the Saka(/East Scyths), Bactria, or Epirus...
    Last edited by Edorix; 01-14-2012 at 10:28.
    ~ Edorix
    Ancient Briton


  3. #3
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW [Please Sticky]

    You make a good point about the rebels. I just want them to be active, you know? Not just sitting around waiting to be conquered. I like your list.
    However:
    Nabataeans were not really unified into a Kingdom (but it seems like everyone wants them) I would substitute them for The Bosporan Kingdom
    For your empty faction slot I would add Epirus, as they played a huge role.

    About the Greek Cities:
    It is almost necessary to have a Greek cities faction. If we did they should be a super faction

  4. #4
    Member Member Xpartacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW [Please Sticky]

    My factions: using Mundus Magnus map

    Western Mediterranean
    1.- Celt-Iberians
    2.- Republic of Carthage
    3.- Roman Republic

    Aegean Basin:
    4.- Kingdom of Macedon
    5.- Kingdom of Epirus
    6.- Achaean League

    Eastern Mediterranean:
    7.- Ptolemaic Empire
    8.- Seleucid Empire

    North European tribes:
    9.- Arverni
    10.- Cimbri

    Steppe regions:
    11.- Sarmatians

    Black sea basin:
    12.- Bosporan Kingdom
    13.- Getae

    Far eastern regions:
    14.- Parthia (Arsacid Dynasty)
    15.- Greco-Bactrian Kingdom (emergent, powerful trough scripting?)
    16.- Far eastern faction (Yuezhi?)

    Now, since there are some regions that might seem a little bit empty (Gaul, germania, european steppe, etc) my suggestion is to have 2 independent people factions. Why? Because that way we can add them into several locations and simulate the constant tribe-wars of the "barbarian factions".
    17.- Independent People 1 ("civilized"-greek)
    18.- Independent people 2 ("barbarian")

    ┐?
    19.- Shadowing factions? (up to 3 might be shadowed by this one)
    20.- Shadowing factions? (up to 3 might be shadowed by this one)

    21.- Rebels. Using "shadowing faction" we can make 3 playable factions to have issues with the loyalty of their family members/generals

    Reasons to use this system: First, if you guys have played enought a mod (or even vanilla rtw) you'll notice that in most games certains factions dominate determined regions and overpower others (seleucid gets most of the times overpowered if there's a Bactria and Parthia faction), in EB Arverni overpower Aedui, etc. So this system allows those factions to grow almost exactly like that (it's gonna happen anyways). Then, what's the difference? Well for Arverni for example, we can shadow them with barbarian independent people, hellenized factions with civilized IP, etc, beacause when a factions gets destroyed in a mod that factions slot gets "wasted", this way we can have constant re-use of factions slots. Also i think so far no other mod has ever had 9 freackin factions with loyatly issues (that's how many we could have with my 2 Independent peoples system).

    Even if this system is not used at all, i'm 100% against putting in a briton faction, Armenia and Pontus as a faction oon their own. Without attempting to offend anyone none of those are worth enough for the time period of this mod.
    And last, even if my factions doesn't make it at the end, please consider the 2 Independent factions slots, since that would REALLY exploit the BI engine (emergent factions and loyalty)
    Last edited by Xpartacus; 01-14-2012 at 18:38.

  5. #5
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW [Please Sticky]

    Reasons to use this system: First, if you guys have played enought a mod (or even vanilla rtw) you'll notice that in most games certains factions dominate determined regions and overpower others (seleucid gets most of the times overpowered if there's a Bactria and Parthia faction), in EB Arverni overpower Aedui, etc. So this system allows those factions to grow almost exactly like that (it's gonna happen anyways). Then, what's the difference? Well for Arverni for example, we can shadow them with barbarian independent people, hellenized factions with civilized IP, etc, beacause when a factions gets destroyed in a mod that factions slot gets "wasted", this way we can have constant re-use of factions slots. Also i think so far no other mod has ever had 9 freackin factions with loyatly issues (that's how many we could have with my 2 Independent peoples system).


    I like it

    I don't think choosing a single tribe could possibly represent the whole of Britain....

    This is tue and it is as same for the other factions-Gauls,Germans and so on...

    MY FACTION LIST :

    1. The Roman Republic - Automatically gets in of course-ROMAN
    2. The Republic of Carthage - Automatically In-CARTHAGINIAN
    3. The Seleucid Empire - Automatically In-GREEK
    4. The Ptolemaic Empire - Automatically In-GREEK
    5. The Antigonid Kingdom - Automatically In (major questions though)-GREEK
    6. The Kingdom of Thrace - Automatically In (major questions though)-GREEK/BARBARIAN
    7. The Kingdom of Pontus - Automatically In-GREEK/EASTERN
    8. The Kingdom of Armenia - Automatically In-GREEK/EASTERN
    9.The Kingdom of Iberia-instead of Parthia-EASTERN
    10.The Kingdom of Epirus-GREEK
    11.The Kingdom of Bithynia-GREEK
    12.Aetolian League-GREEK-Instead of TGCS
    13.Germans-BARBARIAN
    14.Gauls-BARBARIAN
    15.Britons-BARBARIAN
    16. Sarmatians-BARBARIAN
    17. Nabataea-EASTERN
    18.Illyrians-BARBARIAN
    19.Mauretania-instead of Numidia-EASTERN(I suppose,eventhough it is not east)
    20.Celt-Iberians-BARBARIAN/CARTHAGINIAN
    21.rebels-MIX

    Here,I have made the best list I could.

    Just try to imagine our map with this factions if you know where are they situated.

    I want to point my view of things to all of you guys though :


    1.As Edorix said,choosing one tribe to represent the whole Gaul is not such a good idea for me.One tribe to represent 20 or more tribes that existed just doesn't go with me.

    2.I do not prefer THE GREEK CITIES as they are not historical from one view(which I will explain to you all),but they historical when it comes to independant cities and different stile hoplites...

    The problem is as I was trying to explain it to ahowl :

    For example when you play with them you control Athens and Sparta(among the other cities)and you build armies in those cities and put them into one roaster and the fight against the Macedonians or whatever.That is silly because Sparta and Athens were at war with each other and so where the other city-states between themselves and they are very inacurrate to play as.

    The only historical solution(thinking of gameplay also) that I found here was to place AETOLIAN LEAGUE instead of them,they would also be able to recruit all those fancy hoplites that hameleona and me have made...They would spice up things as there would be more battles in those areas especially with Epirus in the West and The Antigonid Kingdom in the North...


    3.DACIANS ?...For me they are fun to play,but there is no need to make them if you already have The Kingdom of Thrace,because Dacians were a Thracian tribe.

    4.INDEPENDENT KINGDOMS OR PEOPLE(Bithynia, Cappadocia, Nabataeans, Numidians, Iberia, Atropatene, Palmyra)-I do not think this is good because 1)It is like you are at the same time playing as GAULS,MACEDONIA,ROME,ETC. as one factions and I think that is bad for historical acurracy and gameplay...
    Last edited by Asgaroth; 01-15-2012 at 01:58.

  6. #6
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Asgaroth, you make some good points.

    UPDATED OP, my second faction list, in my opinion much better and more flexible

  7. #7
    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    My list had one spare slot. So it would be possible to make two Greek Cities factions, eg Athens and Sparta, Aetolian League and Achaean League, or whatever.

    That's a pretty good idea actually imho. :P
    ~ Edorix
    Ancient Briton


  8. #8
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Aetolian League and Achaean League

    I like the idea.

  9. #9
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I have come to a conclusion about the faction list. To me this is the best option. We need factions that are not really featured in other mods and we also need them to reflect the period of our mod if anybody has any problems with this list let me know as more than likely it will be the faction list for HRTW.

    1. The Roman Republic -Roman
    2. The Republic of Carthage -Eastern/Carthaginian
    3. The Seleucid Empire -Greek
    4. The Ptolemaic Empire -Greek
    5. The Antigonid Kingdom -Greek
    6. The Odrysian Kingdom -Hellenic/Barbarian
    7. The Kingdom of Epirus -Greek
    8. The Kingdom of Pontus -Eastern/Carthaginian
    9. The Kingdom of Armenia -Eastern/Carthaginian
    10. Gauls -Barbarian
    11. Britons -Barbarian
    12. Germans -Barbarian
    13. Illyrians -Hellenic/Barbarian
    14. Iberians -Barbarian
    15. Sarmatians -Nomad
    16. Parthia -Nomad
    17. Numidia -Eastern/Carthaginian
    18. The Bosporan Kingdom -Hellenic Barbarian
    19. Sparta -Greek
    20. Free People -Universal
    21. Rebels -Universal

    Cultures:
    Roman:1
    Greek: 5
    Eastern/Carthaginian:4
    Nomad:2
    Greek/Barbarian: 3
    Barbarian: 4
    Universal (does not count as faction slot): 2


    Ok now for any of you that have questions and are wondering why I have changed the original faction list, here is why.
    Antigonid Kingdom - At the time they had a few cities in Greece and were attempting to reclaim Macedon, not many mods portray this, we should portray it accurately
    Odrysian Kingdom - What mod has actual Thracians? Nobody. RTR has a mix of Thrace and Dacia, which was more geared towards the Dacians IMHO
    Kingdom of Epirus - Mods have them, they ARE A MUST. They played a huge role at this time
    The Bosporan Kingdom - Roma Surrectum had them but that was it. They make the Black Sea area a more interesting place to play
    Illyrians - Yes, I feel that they get neglected. To me they were more important than the Dacians, and that's why they will take their spot
    Sparta - Was still a major power in Greece, if luck was a little different Sparta could have been a dominant kingdom. Plus people like to play as them
    Numidia - adds a challenge to Carthage's expansion, Numidia is extremely fun to play as well
    Parthia - we extended the map to India so now we can finally add Parthia to the mix
    Gauls - in my mind should represent the major tribes in Gaul, and possibly the Galatians
    Britons - will control one province and be weak, but will have plenty of time to expand, just like history
    Germans - should own a few provinces
    Iberians - will be a major force in Iberia
    Sarmatians - will give the Bosporans major problems

    Free People faction - yes it is necessary. If you don't know about the idea or concept simply play Roma Surrectum. They can conduct diplomacy, and act like a normal faction, but we restrict them so they are not super powerful. Makes it so we can accurately portray the Independant Kingdoms of the time, without just putting a rebel stack in a city

    Rebels - will be more aggressive if we use the BI.exe.

    (We will make it so we cannot tell the difference between the rebels and free people, as if they were one huge faction)

    Factions that didn't make it and why:
    Aetolian League - was next if I didnt put Sparta.. Would only have Thermon really, and they were not very strong.
    Achaean League - Weaker than Aetolian League
    Athens - really didnt do anything after their alliance with sparta and rhodes
    Bithynia - if only we had more faction slots
    Celt-Iberians - same as above
    Nabataeans - literally did not appear until 168 BC, were simple raiders before hand

    Look, I love the Nabataeans, but putting them in goes against the mod. The mod is about Historical Accuracy, and having a Nabataean Kingdom in 280 BC is not accurate at all. The factions that I have included are as accurate as it gets in my mind.

    If you have any objections please comment below, and I will see if we can maybe make an adjustment
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-16-2012 at 05:03.

  10. #10
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    So now it's:

    - Dacia
    - Nabatean people
    + Odrysian Kingdom (Thrace renamed)
    + Lysimachean Kingdom

    right?

    I'm going to miss the Dacians, but I don't want to slow down the making of the mod so, I'm okay with this faction list. However do we really need the free people?

  11. #11
    Member Member Lord President of Gallifrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Free People Faction - I feel that it would be better if we came up with our own idea to simulate tribal warfare
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I know that the "No Rebel Idea" didn't work, but I don't think we placed restrictions on the Germans (who went on to conquer a large part of the map). To make this system work, we will need to place gameplay restrictions (low income, strong rebels stacks spawning) which might then ruin the vanilla feel


    If everything comes to pass, I would just go with the Vanilla system of using rebels, than using Free Peoples.

    The Odrysian Kingdom and Antigonid Kingdom - They don't sound very vanilla-ish, but this is just a minor gripe.

  12. #12
    Member Member Xpartacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    The only thing i don't like is the "generic" barbarian factions. Either you leave the Gauls, Britons, Germans AND Thracians (remove Odrysian as their name), or name a tribe for the first 3 i listed so that everyone gets a factions on their own

  13. #13
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    The Odrysian Kingdom and Antigonid Kingdom - They don't sound very vanilla-ish, but this is just a minor gripe.
    HRTW ?

    The roaster is better now...For me the Names of the factions are great and better now....

    Sparta is awesome,a good to play as but maybe for some other mod and other map :

    Look guys try to picture yourselves some things...I will try to picture in a more modern way.I do not know from which states you are but let's take a look at the today's USA(hello ahowl,haha)

    You all know,I think so,how the USA is big on the map of North America,right ?...The title of it stays for THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...So it consists of 50 states,represented by 50 stars on the flag.

    We will take New York for example,that is one of the 50 states....Imagine how much potential would New York have to become a major state,power to cover the part of the land that the USA or Mexico covers or even the whole North America?,too little,right...Or to put a better question to you all-Does New York alone or the USA united have more potential to be great and stong ?

    That is what you guys are pushing in the game and I do not understand why ?...

    Now imagine Sparta or Aedui,as someone wanted the also to be ingame...Basicly you can with Spartans stretch all the way to India and how much potential did they historicaly have ?...The were strong and all,the best warriors in world maybe,but they were small...

    Or imagine that your conquered land stretches to Asia Minor(with it included) and you play as the Aedui...How much did they historicaly have potential for that ?


    Now think of this :

    1.how much potential and reasons did the GAULS united had in the past ? The answer is plenty,but the problem is they didn't make it...

    2.How much potential did the NUMIDIANS have ?,to unite and rule-They had,but they didn't do that,they instead turned backs on each other.Eventhough they were two different tribes-Massily and Masaesyl,it doesn't change the fact that they were Numidians and they could stand their ground united against The Romans and Carthage like New York and Arizona are united under a single banner,the banner of the USA...No they had their philosophy and ones supported Romans,ones Carthage in thought that they would be spared after the Romans or Carthage do their job,that their land would be free.They were maybe speared,but the Numidians disappeared in time...But what if the stood together,could they be bigger then carthage ?,in my opinion yes.

    In the mod you have the opportunity to change that and fight for Numidian independance against Romans and Carthage.

    3.Take a look at the GERMANS,they successfuly repeled Roman conquest,but you only want Suebi.Eventhough German tribes weren't all united the few united tribes push back the romans.But if they had all united,would the Antic European world be the same ?.And you say that Suebi alone fought that war and that they alone could repel the romans or Gaulish aedui alone had that potential ?...for me no way...


    The same is with Sparta,as one city the couldn't do much...No matter how much strong and skillful they were,they couldn't as a minor nation do something great and stretch all the way to India....So for me it is better to put Aetolian league or Achean league :



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    Last edited by Asgaroth; 01-15-2012 at 23:03.

  14. #14
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    If we do not have a free people faction then I suggest we put the Dacians back in or we make Celt-Iberia, or even Bactria..

    And Asgaroth excellent point! Aetolian League? They will be tough to do though..

  15. #15
    Member Member Xpartacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Quote Originally Posted by ahowl11 View Post

    And Asgaroth excellent point! Aetolian League? They will be tough to do though..
    Why?

  16. #16
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Well I don't know much about them for starters. They were only around for a short amount of time right?

    Edit: I have done some research, I just don't know. To me the Aetolian League and Sparta are equal. And as for the free people faction, if we do not include them, we must find a way to make the rebels much more stronger than they already are.
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-16-2012 at 05:04.

  17. #17
    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I am really feeling the loss of Celtiberia and Dacia at the moment - however, with a good AoR system for the Iberians and Odrysians respectively to reflect these peoples, then I can bear it (admittedly this works better for the Celtiberian than the Dacians. The Dacians were fairly important in this period; although the details are unclear, over the next couple of hundred years it was they who would drive the Gauls/Celts back out of Eastern Europe, by the conquest of the Pannonian Plain. So basically if another slot does open up, Dacia > Celtiberia in my opinion in this respect.)

    As for the Greek faction, I think that Sparta is definitely not really the best faction for this period, and nor is Athens; their period of dominance was over. In fact, the age of the independent powerful city-state was over. The only way in which Greeks, independent of Macedon, could wield political power, was through uniting into confederacies or leagues. I think there is much to be said in favour of the Vanilla "Greek Cities" faction. Now I think that in Vanilla the Greek Cities are too powerful; but it did allow you to play as independent Greeks without having to choose which one. I think the solution for a Greek faction is to do this, to have literally a Greek faction; we give them a few signal territories (not too many!!!) to show what leagues/city-states they represent, which should preferably be a little isolated to reflect that the Greeks did not always act together, and be sure not to make each one too strong. I think it would be most realistic to make it so that they are eventually conquered by Macedon if the AI runs the campaign, most of the time (maybe make the re-emergent...?, because Macedon should be able politically to stand up to Rome after Rome beats Carthage.

    The free people faction - I don't know. I just think that basically that is the function of the Rebels, and the Rebels can presumably be modded to incorporate the important functions of a second Rebel faction. It seems almost a waste to take up another faction slot with another faction that could realistically only be non-playable. But hey, I don't know. How about we choose 22 factions, 20 of which are certain and 2 we must choose between, and then save the final decision for the testing phase so we can really see the pros and cons?
    ~ Edorix
    Ancient Briton


  18. #18
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    First things first. Bravo to Asgaroth for his speech. i vote for the Aetolians because I know more about them. As for the free people problem, i say that we rename the rebels to free people (if possible) and make them stronger if it's possible. That way we may re-add the Dacians. For some reason I like the names of Antigonid Kingdom and Odrysian Kingdom, rather than Macedon and Thrace. It isn't very vanilla but I like them anyway.

  19. #19
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Well I can say this for sure, the Free People faction is not a popular idea for this mod, and if that is the case, I must make a change. Dacia will be a good faction to add, I really didn't want to get rid of them anyways. If you guys believe that we can mod the rebel faction to be more aggressive and not so dull, I am all for it, but the thing is how do we mod the rebel faction? Also realize that the free people faction can represent the other factions in civil wars. I plan to integrate many historical revolts and civil wars, and if it's just a rebel stack who stands in the same area, i'm not sure I want to get rid of the Free People.

    As for the Greeks. I like both propositions by Asgaroth and Edorix. We must come up with something that can help the Aetolian League survive,and if we do a Greek Cities faction, how about this?
    Athens
    Rhodes
    Syracuse
    Sparta

    Maybe exclude Sparta or Athens, but that in my mind is enough to support a spread out faction, but not enough to make them too powerful.

  20. #20
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Sparta was independent form the Aetolian League

  21. #21
    Member Member Xpartacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I've seen the rebel faction been agressive, but only by a certain ammount of time. I mean i've seen them attempting to conquer a settlement (sometimes stupidly since they have no chance) and if they have a strong stack they can succed. But that stack won't attempt to conquer any more settlements (thus making it a rare event). However, if what ahowl11 wants is to simulate specific revolts then we can spawn (trough script off course) certain armies and even characters at a given time.

    Speaking of this, i would like to give my opinion about scripts, we should make them trigger by events and not dates. Let's say I'm playing as Romans, and the team creates a script to trigger the 2nd Punic War, instead of triggering it at 218 BC (280 to 218 BC 62 years, if we use 4tpy = 248 turns!!), we should trigger it if Romans conquer Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia and the whole Italian peninsula (conditions met historically); since dates can give us a freacking long game (and boring, like EB, wich makes you wait a thousand years -not literally- to get reforms, etc). I saw at TWC that someone found a way to spawn working family members (usually if you spawn a FM it won't be in the family tree), the problem is that he's suspended right now.

  22. #22
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I could not agree more, I want the start date to be as historical as possible, but after that it's up to the player to alter the course of history.. the second punic war could start as soon as 270 BC, if the Romans expanded that quickly

  23. #23
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I agree. That would make the game extremely interesting to play. It's making my blood boil! (lol)

  24. #24
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    First things first. Bravo to Asgaroth for his speech.
    Thank you TwoKnives...

    If we do not have a free people faction then I suggest we put the Dacians back in or we make Celt-Iberia, or even Bactria..
    I was only explaining why not to use Sparta nor Aedui nor Suebi and some other thoughts...

    And I say Aetolian league is the best option.We will give them all the hoplites me and hameleona have made,that way they won't be crushed by Epirus or Macedon early in the game.And besides that we will have an extended map so they won't be to close.

    I could not agree more, I want the start date to be as historical as possible, but after that it's up to the player to alter the course of history

    The basic point for me here is that we make historical events to happen but in what way will it resolve it is up to the game...We do not need to make Romans win the Punic wars,we just need to make Punic wars happen.Because if we do everything like it was in history then it will be boring and players will know what will happen on the world map that they are playing...

    So Punic wars,yes...Rome wins,does not need to be that way,because of this it will be more interesting.

  25. #25
    Iron Age Briton Member Edorix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    And I say Aetolian league is the best option.We will give them all the hoplites me and hameleona have made,that way they won't be crushed by Epirus or Macedon early in the game.And besides that we will have an extended map so they won't be to close.
    I have no personal preference for a Greek faction, but I do think a city-state is inappropriate, so a league of some kind is in order. From what I do know of the period, the Aetolian league was a major player - during the Illyrian War they were Rome's main supporter, and in the Second Punic War, more importantly, it was they who saved the Romans from losing the war by keeping Hannibal's ally Macedon occupied in Greece, preventing him from going to Hannibal's aid. Imagine, Macedon and Carthage against an already war-weary and decimated Rome...

    So for what it's worth, my vote for a free Greek faction also goes to Aetolians - however, I suggest we call them the Greeks instead. They will effectively by the Aetolians, and start in Aetolia etc, but if we call them "Hellenic Confederacy" or something, then we don't alienate the rest of Greece if/when it gets incorporated into the alliance (ie conquered :P).
    ~ Edorix
    Ancient Briton


  26. #26
    Member Member Xpartacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgaroth View Post
    And besides that we will have an extended map so they won't be to close.
    They wil be close, because MM or any other map based around vanilla RTW map (mainly MM and RTR's 6.0 map) have the same scale (pixels by regions). If you want more distance between settlements you'll need to change the scale of the map.

  27. #27
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Edorix, you make a very valid point, but maybe Aetolian League should stay, because I cannot really think of anything else besides "The Greek Cities" as an alternative.

  28. #28
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    I have no personal preference for a Greek faction, but I do think a city-state is inappropriate, so a league of some kind is in order.

    Ok Aetolian league it is then,as we dont lose time debating only about factions.I think,but ahowl11 has the final word ?

  29. #29
    Member Member Ave_Oz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    ahowl11 will you please update the OP with the final faction list? Or at least reduce the text and leave the ones that will not change? I'm saying this so that we can start researching for the settlements and regions for each one.

  30. #30
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Factions of HRTW

    Am i the only one that thinks that if there is Epyros, you dont need any of the leagues? Better add loyalty to Epyros and Macedon (for example), anda just stick with GCS as major rebel faction.

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