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Thread: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

  1. #1
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    The Roman Republic

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    Cities:
    Rome
    Arretium
    Capua

    Rome
    At this time, Rome was a powerful state in Italy. It had been founded in 753 BC when many villages had combined into one large town, which was established on seven hills. They were convicts, low life's, shepherds, farmers, and fisherman. In it's earliest days, it was ruled by Kings, the most noteworthy of them being Etruscans. In 509 BC the last Etruscan King was expelled and a Republic was founded. The republic had expanded against the Sabines, Aequi, and Volsci in it's early years, but in the early fourth century, the city of Rome was sacked by Celts. It took awhile for the city to recover, and they were constantly at war with various Italian Peoples. They had succeeded in defeating the Latins, Marsi, Samnites, and Etruscans as they expanded north, east, and south. After the Third Samnite War ended in 290 BC, and the defeat of the Celtic tribes, Umbrians and Etruscans in the 280's BC, Rome was at it's greatest extent from Eturia all the way into Samnium.

    The city of course, is the capital of the Romans. It should be the largest city in size and population.

    Arretium
    Originally founded by the city of Clusium, Arretium was a major city of the Etruscans. It is thought that Arretium was one of the twelve most important Etruscan cities. After it became independent, Arretium established a niche for bronze working, trading with the Romans and Celts. Due to civil strife and unrest, Arretium went over peacefully to Rome around 311 BC.

    Arretium should be a large town with many economic benefits.

    Capua
    Capua was a city in Campania. It was founded by Greeks, but developed an Greco-Etruscan culture due to the Greek sphere of influence. It supported the Latins in their agianst Rome in 338 BC and after the wars cam under the control of the Romans. Capua was known for it's metalworking abilities and was known as the second largest city in Italy


    Army

    During the time frame of our mod there were two significant reforms. The Polybian and Marian. In 280 BC, Rome deployed the Camillan Army which consisted of these units:

    The Camillan Army

    Leves

    Leves were of a poorer and younger class of Roman citizens. They were skirmishers who would harass the enemy lines until they were out of ammunition or were driven off. They were armed only with the clothes on their backs, some javelins and a spear to engage in melee.

    *Europa Barbarorum has them using a shield, and also says they wore helmets, which I believe is not true since they were very poor.

    How Leves should be made:
    Peasant model and texture, give him javelins and a spear, instead of a dagger. Leves, will be slightly weaker than most Peltasts and Skirmishers.

    Hastati

    Hastati were the first battle line in the Camillan and Polybian armies. Hastati derived their name from the word Hastae, which means short spear. They would be the first to engage in melee, and would then retire to let the Principes fight.

    Hastati were armed with a six foot long spear, the scutum shield, a helmet which had three feathers attached to it, a greave on their shield side leg and a breastplate for protection.

    *A few sources claim that Hastati carried pilae and short swords into battle during the Camillan Era. This is not true as both of those weapons and fighting styles were adapted from the Iberian troops between the first and second Punic Wars.

    How Hastati should be made:
    Hastati model and texture. Get rid of plume on helmet and replace with feathers, get rid of pila and short swords and replace with spears. Put a greave on their shield side leg.
    They will still be a very dependable unit for the Camillan Roman Army

    Principes

    Principes were of a wealthier class of citizens. They also had more experience and were older than the Hastati. The Principes would form the second battle line and relieve the Hastati, when the Hastati withdrew. The Principes will be armed and armored very similarly to the Hastati except the have chain mail instead of a breast plate.

    How Principes should be made:
    Principes model and texture. Get rid of plume on helmet and replace with feathers, get rid of pila and short swords and replace with spears. Put a greave on their shield side leg.
    The Principes will make up the main force of a Camillan Army.

    Triarii

    The Triarii are the wealthiest and most experienced soldiers in the Camillan Army. They fought in the hoplite fashion and were the backbone of the Camillan Army. They wore a breastplate that covered the entire torso, an Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet and a greave on their shield side leg. They also carried a spear, a short sword and a large round shield similar to what hoplites used.

    *Another source said that their helemts were similar to Hastati and Principes but i felt the Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet would look better.

    How Triarii should be made:
    Triarii model, new head containing Etrusco-Corinthian helmet, shield and breastplate of Armored Hoplites, a sword to fight with when out of the Phalanx formation, and a greave on the shield side leg.
    The Triarii will be the elite unit of Roman armies

    Rorarii

    Rorarii served as reserves in the Camillan Army. They were useful for support when a flank began to waver and were mainly used as reserves. The Rorarii carried a scutum, hasta spear, wore no armor except for a helmet.

    How Rorarii will be made:
    Town Watch Unit without Cape

    Accensi

    Accensi were the poorest and weakest of all citizen soldiers within the Camillan army. They were in the back of the line together with the Rorarii. They wore the colthes on their backs and carried slings.

    How Accensi will be made:
    Roman Slinger model and texture
    No shield
    Will be weaker than other slinger units

    Equites

    Equites were the cavalry of the Camillan Army. They were medium cavalry who maintained the fanks. Equites were the wealthiest citizen soldiers of the army, hence why they get to ride on horseback. They wore a bronze cuirass, and a crested helmet with a plume. Also they carry a lance, round shield and a short sword.

    How Equites will be made:
    Equites Model and texture, new head with crested helmet, cuirass, cape
    Will be much more stronger than vanilla equites

    Polybian Army

    After some difficulties with the previous army, the Romans decided to adapt to a more flexible army. These changes happened sometime in between the first and second punic wars.

    Changes
    Instead of Rorarii, Accensi, and Leves, only one unit, Velites.
    Hastati and Principes have Pilae and Gladius
    Triarii lose phalanx formation and are more heavy spearmen than hoplites
    Equites are more flexible
    Funditores

    Velites

    Velites were essentially the Leves, Rorarii, and Accensi combined. The Velites would play the role of the Leves by rushing out to throw javelins at the enemy and then rushing back behind the lines for safety. They will also carry a dagger and a round shield for protection.

    How Velites will be made:
    Same as vanilla except they need a bigger shield.
    Will be equivalent to Peltasts.

    Hastati/Principes

    Will look the same but have two Pilae to throw and use the gladius as their melee weapon, and have more chain mail armor.

    Triarii
    Will look very similar to the Triarii in vanilla, keeps the Etrusco-Corinthian Helmet, but substitutes chain mail armor for the breastplate, and has a scutum instead of a hoplite shield. Also will fight as more flexible spearmen than in a phalanx

    Equites
    Will have chain mail instead of breast plate

    Funditores

    Funditores were Slingers used by the Romans, they were not used extensively but they were used and were effective.

    How Funditores will be made:
    Accensi unit but with shield
    Last edited by ahowl11; 01-22-2012 at 02:46.

  2. #2
    Member Member Ave_Oz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Roman Republic

    I propose the use of vanilla's senate faction symbol. I'm mostly against the red one of DTW since back then wearing purple didn't meant you were gay and in fact it was a color meaning a high social status and off course, wealthiness. The use of red color for a roman faction is consequence of hollywood movies (much like Coke's fault we hear "Santa Claus" and think of a big & old fat man wearing red).

    that's all i have to say since history & research it's not my field of expertise.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I say we have named and numbured legions for rome here is a list of roman legions


    Legio I Germanica (or Augusta)
    Legio I Adiutrix
    Legio I Italica
    Legio I Macriana Liberatrix
    Legio I Minervia
    Legio I Parthica could be used for apropatine campaign
    Founded in 197 AD by Septimius Severus for his campaign against the Parthians
    http://www.unrv.com/military/legions.php list for more and source

  4. #4
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    @Ozman

    I actually like the red color for Rome because to me it just resembles who they are.

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    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I would like to point out a thing for the pre-marian roman army. The vanilla representation was correct, but the roman army was like that by the Second Punic war. Before that there were no velites, their place was held by three different types of units, the rorarii, the accensi and the leves. The leves had the same function as the velites. The rorarii were inexperienced fighters that assisted the triarii. The accensi were experienced, but unreliable fighters that also supported the triarii. My point is that, since the velites were introduced during the Second Punic war after Scipio's reforms (and the mod starts in 280 BC), to have them in the game accurately we should simulate these reforms. However Marian reforms were much more important than those of Scipio, and we can't have two reforms in 1 faction.

    Now we are left with two options:

    a) Remove the Velites, thing which might lower the quality of the game-play.
    b) Add them, but lowering the historical accuracy.

    If somebody has an idea, please speak up. If nobody does, I'd go for option a, simply because it MIGHT lower the quality of the game-play, and only for the fans that love this unit, while option b WILL lower the historical accuracy and has anybody ever thought what people might say about it after the mod is released? Ok, i know, it's only 1 unit, but some people love to rant and criticize. So what do we do?
    Last edited by TwoKnives; 01-20-2012 at 20:08.

  7. #7
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ave_Oz View Post
    I propose the use of vanilla's senate faction symbol. I'm mostly against the red one of DTW since back then wearing purple didn't meant you were gay and in fact it was a color meaning a high social status and off course, wealthiness.
    This is very true, but purple wasn't associated with the Romans either. IIRC only important senators were allowed to have a purple border or strip on their toga. Purple dye was outrageously expensive. If the colour was associated with anyone, it would have been the Carthaginians and other Phoenician cities. They were either the dominant or only producer of purple dye. In fact the word Phoenician (and Punic) may be derived from the Greek word for purple.
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  8. #8
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    This is very true, but purple wasn't associated with the Romans either. IIRC only important senators were allowed to have a purple border or strip on their toga. Purple dye was outrageously expensive. If the colour was associated with anyone, it would have been the Carthaginians and other Phoenician cities. They were either the dominant or only producer of purple dye. In fact the word Phoenician (and Punic) may be derived from the Greek word for purple.
    Yes Phoenicians got the purple dye for some kind of sea snails or some other mollusks. So red it is for the Romans, It suits them more for some reason.

  9. #9
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoKnives View Post
    So red it is for the Romans, It suits them more for some reason.
    I read that Red is the color of Mars,so red suits them VERY well...
    When the camel {S}thinks,it is time to leave the oassis!

  10. #10
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    over 75% of the war-gods have Red as their color ;)

  11. #11
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    why couldnt we have two reforms? the first one wouldnt be that major

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    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by ahowl11 View Post
    why couldnt we have two reforms? the first one wouldnt be that major
    I think it ain't possible...

    @hameleona - I didn't know!:)
    When the camel {S}thinks,it is time to leave the oassis!

  13. #13
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I think it ain't possible...
    Whatever he said. Two reforms aren't possible as far as I know so, it leaves us with the two options I pointed out.

  14. #14
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Do we have senate symbol in rer color,or can I make it red?

  15. #15
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    We have it in Red color. How about we make Velites available, but just put them in a higher tier for the buildings? That way when you get to the higher tier as the Romans, more than likely you will be fighting Carthage

  16. #16
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I thought about, that, but if they would be high tier, they should be really strong. Otherwise nobody would recruit them. Besides having them as a high tier unit would not make the leves, rorarii and accensi disappear. It wouldn't really matter if they wouldn't be added at all, basically they are leves with more numbers and different name.

  17. #17
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I don't understand how there is not another reform available.. I never heard that you couldn't have more than 1

  18. #18
    Member Member Ave_Oz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    It is "sort of" possible, remember that EB uses 1-2 or even 3 (if i remember right) for some factions, but they are not the vanilla reforms; it is some sort of script that acts like a reform. My suggestion is NOT doing that, if we want to keep the vanilla feeling we should avoid unnecesary scripts that will slow down the perfomance of the game (enough we have using the RSII textures and environments). And abput the color well, i didn't meant exactly vanilla's senate color, that's grape-purple (sort of), the color i meant was "tyrian purple" wich resembles a lot a red (darker than vanilla); but i'm ok using red as the faction color :)

  19. #19
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    It is "sort of" possible, remember that EB uses 1-2 or even 3 (if i remember right) for some factions, but they are not the vanilla reforms; it is some sort of script that acts like a reform. My suggestion is NOT doing that, if we want to keep the vanilla feeling we should avoid unnecesary scripts that will slow down the perfomance of the game (enough we have using the RSII textures and environments)
    Precisely. So I say we don't add them at all and get moving with the work. We could add them, but lowering the historical accuracy. Also we could replace the purple in the SPQR banner with red. Also I need a final and decisive answer for the "velites issue" by you guys, especially ahowl11, so I can move on and do the darn unit roster.

  20. #20
    Member Member Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I think we shoud keep them.
    When the camel {S}thinks,it is time to leave the oassis!

  21. #21
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    You CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)

  22. #22
    Member Member Ave_Oz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by hameleona View Post
    You CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)
    Exactly

  23. #23
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    ou CAN'T have two reforms, but you can simulate another reform - just like EB did. But it's hard work for nothing really nice. Just leave the velites in a higher tire and there you go ;)
    I agree...We are losing time for nothing that way.We choose which is the most important reform of the faction and leave it-in this case that is the Marian reforms are way important the other.


    So the symbol we already have done.The culture will be obviously roman...


    And here you are a little funny page for the resources,better to say trade roots of that time.

    http://resourcesforhistory.com/map.htm

    To see the trade roots click on the little ship beneath.
    Last edited by Asgaroth; 01-21-2012 at 22:47.

  24. #24
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    I think that here are ALL THE CITIES you can get FOR OUR MAP :

    It states how much citizens the cities had at that time(for some cities) as well as who were they owned by and what was the city famous for.For some cities there are even the resources and for each city there is aregion it belonged to.

    So these will shorten off our time for searching te cities.The only thing you have to do is scroll down or up.

    http://books.google.hr/books?id=v9YB...20city&f=false
    Last edited by Asgaroth; 01-21-2012 at 23:04.

  25. #25
    Member Member Ave_Oz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgaroth View Post
    I think that here are ALL THE CITIES you can get FOR OUR MAP :

    It states how much citizens the cities had at that time(for some cities) as well as who were they owned by and what was the city famous for.For some cities there are even the resources and for each city there is aregion it belonged to.

    So these will shorten off our time for searching te cities.The only thing you have to do is scroll down or up.

    http://books.google.hr/books?id=v9YB...20city&f=false
    You gotta be kidding me, you're the researcher man, you're supposed to do the scroll over and then give me the results of research, not just look out for info for me (in that case i'll use my sources wich i think are not much in the same interest as yours)

  26. #26
    Member Member ahowl11's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    UPDATED OP

    There is my first work for the Romans. We still have a lot to do. I would like to see some quality stuff from you guys, this is where it all starts for us. Research is vital!

    Here is what I will do in my next Roman Research Post:
    Marian Army
    Socii/Allied Units
    Auxillia Units
    Recruitment systems

    I guess while I'm working on that we can assign the Romans the cities on our map, and start making the units. I can ask around to see how I can script in the Polybian reform.
    By the way when creating the units, do not worry about UI's, just worry about the models and such. We have a UI maker now in Lanjane. He made units for THS and created UI's for the Persian Invasion mod.

    References
    Rome And Her Enemies; An Empire Created and Destroyed By War -Osprey Publishers
    A Guide To the Ancient World -Michael Grant
    The Cultural Atlas of The Roman World
    www.wikipedia.org
    www.europabarbarorum.com
    www.twc.net
    roman-empire.net

    I know those are not great resources, but for having limited time and not many resources or money, I made due. Wikipedia is not bad at all, especially if the article provides references. Also yes I believe EB is a great source for learning about history. I also look at the other mods and see their views on certain factions and units, combine them and then come up with my overall opinion. I learned a lot in five hours of research. Now I will focus on other things with the mod and continue my research with the Romans when I can. I want to see you guys actually researching, give me your thoughts on what you have found and let's put our heads together.

  27. #27
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    EB is a good source, not a great one.
    Love the banners.

    Asgaroth, when do we start?

    PS: ahowl, i can tell you that the reforms script is just to heavy. It's a grave process, honestly, so why don't you think about leaving it vanilla.
    Last edited by hameleona; 01-22-2012 at 10:52.

  28. #28
    Member Member Asgaroth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    You gotta be kidding me
    No.I study medicine and if I have time I research heavyly for something...Now at my University I have Chemistry and Physics which aren't easy,so I don't have much time to research...

    That thing that I posted was for TWOKNIVES AND AHOWL11,so they can decide which cities need more research and which cities would fitt in the game.


    I know those are not great resources, but for having limited time and not many resources or money, I made due. Wikipedia is not bad at all, especially if the article provides references.
    The sources are great...And I agree about wikipedia.You can find many mistakes on her,but still she is not that bad at all,as people spitt on her.

    Good work ahowl.For editing the first post.it looks great and we look much serious as a team now and in this way that we are working it is much easyer to work.


    Love the banners.

    The banners and the symbols are awesome...

    AHOWL11-I can make other faction symbols if you want,but when e get to them ?...They would be vanilla of course,not like the ones me and the Spartan warlord have made.


    Asgaroth, when do we start?
    Haven't you given up from us ?



    Polybian Army

    No archers for the romans ?
    Last edited by Asgaroth; 01-22-2012 at 11:38.

  29. #29
    Member Member hameleona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    Nah, i can allways make a few units for you, people. ;)

    Just don't expect 3+ units per day as when we started. ;)

  30. #30
    Member Member TwoKnives's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction #1 The Roman Republic

    @ahowl11

    We can implement the Polybian army through a reform, but it will slow the game down. The banners are good though, I like them very much.

    @Asgaroth

    Rome's cities in the beginning of the game:

    Rome
    Arretium
    Capua
    Ravenna
    Beneventum

    Also, Romans had no archers, except for the auxiliary or sometimes mercenary ones.

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