The continuation of my Israel experience thread

[CountArach]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

*Raises hand*

[Fragony]

@CA, glad I amuse you, but did your intelect even consider that someoone will one day refuse to accept the Nobel-peace price because he can't stand rhe hypocrcacy. Intellecualism is a small self-congratulating world that is rapidly losing it's shine

[Fragony]

*Raises hand*

And I don't believe you, it would mean that 99% of my dealings with mmuslims were just a state of mind. You are lying, put that hand back

[Hax]

No, you are the one who's lying.

I deal with Muslims on a daily basis. I attend classes , I discuss religion and I talk with Muslims on a daily basis in an academic environment. We have a Jewish girl in our class as well. There has never beenany kind of anti-Jewish sentinment express by anyone, and we have the most diverse kind of Muslims there; Shi‘ites, Sunni converts, Ahmadiyya, Sufis, Turkish supporters of Milli Görüs, Kemalists, etc.

You are not going to tell me who is a "proper" Muslim and that a real Muslim should hate Jews, because in that case, you are severely disconnected from reality. And I mean severely. You're not in any kind of position to pass out any judgement concerning this issue. Unless you believe that the only kind of real Muslims are those in Hamas, well boy, have I got news for you:

Hamas doesn't care about people. They're politicians in the worst sense of the word; my father (a Muslim) has personally talked to members of Hamas and he was less than stellar about them, in fact, he outright despises them for their consistent betrayal of the Palestinian people. Hamas is not interested in helping anyone, they only care about themselves.

How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN.

There are idiots everywhere; I bet that more than half of the people there don't have a basic understanding of Arabic or studied Islamic fundamentalism in the 20th century. I despise people like Gretta Duijsenberg for their betrayal of the legacy of what happened in Europe between 1939 and 1945, in my opinion, they're possibly the worst kind of political scum; to leech off and to abuse the Holocaust while simultaneously expressing support for a self-proclaimed (!) fundamentalist, terrorist organisation. They cannot be condemned hard enough.

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country. People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed. If they wanted to, they could turn their prime strip of real estate into the next Monte Carlo but their culture won't allow it and they'd loose their sources of free money.

I think I'm going to try to explain this as kindly as I can, but this is one of the worst things I've heard so far. There was an Israeli journalist who said exactly the same thing; "If they wanted to, they can turn Gaza into the next Dubai"; this is basically on the same level of discourse as "Palestine already exists, it's called Jordan" and "The Jews can live in Madagascar".

As an interesting note, after the lecture I went for drinks with the same Jewish girl I mentioned earlier and some of her friends (all of them Israelis themselves). Of course, after a couple of beers people got more loose-tongued and spoke more freely. The proposition that Gaza would magically turn into some kind of wonderland is an idea that has consistently been spread by right-wing Israeli media to justify the siege and blockade of the Gaza strip.

Economic sustainability of the Gaza strip would be a most excellent development. However, Israeli policy is currently directed towards denying any kind of economic self-sustainability or independence. The dismemberment of the Palestinian provinces I mentioned earlier had the goal of severely diminishing the Palestinian economy to the degree that they became completely dependent on humanitarian assistance. As to why? Well, don't forget that Gaza was the stronghold of Arab resistance against the Israelis, and there is a theory that this is just a way for punishment. I don't know. However, there is an undeniable fact, whether you like it or not, and that is that Israel's blockade and siege of Gaza have ground the economy to a near-halt.

In a sense, you're definitely correct. Gaza is a welfare state. Gaza has never been given the opportunity, neither by Israel nor by Hamas (and I can't stress this last point enough) to have their own functioning economy.

Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

Ultra-orthodox. Salafis. Jihadis.

My grandfather was a member of the Sufi Rahmaniya movement (who incidentally, also led the Turkish resistance against the French in Algeria). From what I've heard (I've never known him personally), he was one of the most humble people my parents ever knew.

This is just my personal opinion; from what I've personally experienced with Muslims here (there's just one guy, a Dutch convert whom I very much dislike) and abroad that they are helpful, humble and very hospitable.

Interesting opinion. It reminds me of what was said about Iraq: We invaded a subsidized welfare state with a poor work ethic and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Naturally, they objected.

So the presence of foreign troops on their soil and the fact that a pro-western Shi‘ite-majority government was appointed had totally nothing to do with it.

Those damn Ay-rabs and their laziness.

[Fragony]

Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

[Jolt]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

*raises hand* Muslim clerics, even.

[Hax]

Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

Did you even read my post? I actually expressed my disgust for her; my father talked to her a couple of years back and he, too, thinks she's really misguided.

[lars573]

I've heard this type of thing before. From a Jewish Canadian journalist who did the same sort of thing. And his experience included working in a restaurant where the Palestinian kitchen workers had to hide from the Israeli customers. Otherwise their business would evaporate.

[Hooahguy]

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the is wrong with this place?

[lars573]

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

I make no claims to it's truthiness. Only that he related the anecdote in his article on being part of the second Gaza blockade flotilla. And that he claimed the Israeli customers of the shop would be able to recognize a Palestinian. Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the is wrong with this place?

It's under the sway of religious nut bags?

[Papewaio]

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

Raises hand.

Waleed Aly is an example of a typical smart Aussie.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Not necessarily. For example, long opening times is as much a sign of economic need as anything else. Take for example the “supermarkets” that they have in semi-rural south east England. You know, where Sainsbury's is advertising with how it keeps the villages alive by providing a single extremely shy and probably not very well paid employee to man the counter of the local supermarket...

That's just (relative) poverty. Not religious freedom, per se. Those shops would otherwise not net enough revenue to keep going, so they have little choice but to accept very long opening times.

Similar shops in the Netherlands just don't bother with 06:00 - 23:00 opening hours, as they can afford not to.

EDIT: I als raise my hand for the knowing muslims who don't object to Jews scoreboard.

[Moros]

Raises both hands. Sorry frags, but the ones I know don't hate jews.

[Hax]

Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

Probably by the way they speak Hebrew. Of course, I think that they'd just try to avoid any contact, because at the moment they'd actually have to speak to Israelis, their Arabic accent would come through. I noticed this when talking to one of my Israeli friends, he kept saying "Chamas" while I pronounce it "Hamas" with as a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (I'd had to look that one up, hah).

[Fragony]

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

[Husar]

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people.

[Fragony]

Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people.

And maybe it doesn't, the only thing that makes the difference is that Israel is a jewish state. A very small one I might add where jews have lived since forever

[Hooahguy]

Might have something to do with semites

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

[Jolt]

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

Well, Jews (like Arabs, mind you) are part of the Semite language-cultural group (The other major players were the Indo-Europeans and the Berber language-cultural groups).

Well, the major problem isn't the UN vote on a Jewish homeland. It's the hypocrisy that is behind it. Obviously the Jewish only got to vote on it thanks to the economical and political weight that they had in Western countries. If one's cultural group gets a chance to get a vote in the UN to recreate a State in antiquity when most of the Jews by then lived in the diaspora, what about the 1001 other cultural groups with different languages and cultures from the political elites that ruled them from another land? What about the Kurds? What about the Tamils? What about the Tibetans? What about the Kosovars, the Abkhazs, the Punjabis, the Baluchis? A whole different ranges of peoples living under a "different" country, that had their own political entity throughout history, and which, even contrary to the Jews themselves, never left their ancestral lands. Where is their vote?

Besides, it wasn't British land. It was a British Mandate. It was a land with international jurisdiction which had been delegated to Britain on behalf of the international authorities. Britain had recieved the mandate under international law to ensure the transition of the administration until the locals were ready to rule by themselves. It is necessary to point out that when Britain made these commitments, the report of the League of Nations (Old UN, which did grant the Mandate to Britain), showed that 80% of the total population of Palestine was Muslim. In the last Ottoman census, shortly before they entered World War I, the province even had more Christian families than Jewish ones.

What happened was that since the British got the Mandate, they closed their eyes to Jewish migration, which was absolutely huge and that by itself was a violation of their own commitments to the International Law.

As you said, Arab leaders did kind of care for the Palestinian people. That is why they attacked Israel. Repeatedly. If Israel had been established in a chunk of Turkish territory instead, I doubt Arab leaders would have cared that much. Mustafa Kemal, on the other hand, would have done his best to drive whatever waves of Jewish immigrants that were arriving, into the sea.

As to shops closing early, I do admit I don't quite understand why it happens. Here in the North of Portugal, bars and shop stay open until 9 PM. In the South of Portugal, by 8 PM, everything is closed. It's weird.

[Pannonian]

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

That's as good an argument for the legal establishment of Israel as I've seen. Enough Palestinian Jews made enough of a nuisance of themselves, backed by outside support, that the current rulers packed up and left it to an outside agency to sort out. The problem is that this doesn't make the Palestinian Arab side any less legitimate, only less successful. And of course, there is still the problem of ongoing land grabs in the West Bank, which have historically been the most legitimate justification for war. If the PLO declare formal war based on the Israeli annexation of the West Bank, Israel would have no justification left except the right of conquest.

[Husar]

Is semites really the best word?

I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

What a quagmire.

Yup. As for it being British land, so was a lot of land, doesn't mean that the locals always liked or desired that either.

[Hooahguy]

I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.

[Hax]

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

[Gelatinous Cube]

I dated a Guatemalan woman once, and she went out of her way to remind me that Guatemala was the deciding vote for the creation of Israel back in the day. For some reason, I found that worth remembering.

[Jolt]

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

Actually, anti-semitism has become the modern synonym of the word "Blasphemy". Blasphemy in it's meaning, is an action which is so utterly against God that is should in no way try to do the said action or even argue for it. "Anti-Semitism" has become the near comparison for the word. Calling something/someone Anti-Semitic invokes the very same social sanctions of the Blasphemic words. If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

Just replace Anti-Semitism with Blasphemy, and you have exactly the same purpose for the word.

[Hooahguy]

If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

[Fragony]

Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.

Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

[Sarmatian]

Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

Good luck and congratz on sincerity.

[Pannonian]

Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

If by Gutmensch you mean those who disapprove of Israel's actions, I don't particularly like Palestine either. My preference would be to just fence the area off and leave them to deal with themselves however they like, with anyone from the EU who ventures into there stripped of their EU citizenship. If the people there aren't inclined to listen to us, I don't see why we should be saddled with their disaffection.

[Hooahguy]

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.