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  1. #1
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Crusader Kings II

    EDIT:

    Don't forget to check out our awesome Crusader Kings II Modding general thread, linked in my sig!


    Contests and Giveaways

    Somewhere along the way we got it into our heads to play this game with fabulous prizes on the line!

    The first Crusader Kings II Challenge was held with the ultimate goal of returning the old Roman Empire back to it's de jure glory. You can read about the player's attempts to do so in the thread here: Crusader Kings II Challenge - An Empire Divided.

    Will we do future challenges/contests? Its a possibility! If you have ideas for one, don't be afraid to post and tell us









    Original Post:


    You cannot hide from me orgahs. I can see some of you playing it on my friends list!

    I need some opinions on this one. The first was always a curiosity that I never took the time to get into. But ever since my 200+ hour love affair with EU3 I find myself giving serious consideration to any paradox grand strategy. And this ones no different.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Is it as buggy as to be expected from a paradox release? Is it really rough? I played the demo but sadly its a touch limited (with no save!). So i am at a loss as to its overall quality.

    For those curious the launch trailer is below:

    Last edited by Monk; 07-05-2012 at 02:44.

  2. #2
    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    I played the preview version, and really liked the new style of gameplay (more realistic than general medieval strategy games, this being more of a strategic RPG), alas, with so little time recently, I couldn't really go into depth. Now I am still struggling with finding some time for the full game, just managed to play for half an hour so far, but I once again like it. So far there is only one issue that can ruin your day, and that is the fact that AI seems to be able to carry out assassination attempts galore, not really requiring any money for it, and being utterly relentless in it. It reminded me somewhat of my old M:TW days with my spy rush tactic; I'd mass spies in a certain country, move to the neighboring one, stay there one turn, rebellions break out (there were a LOT of spies there!) and I move to the next province. Rinse and repeat. Here, the AI seems to be cheating with assassinations. But its not a gamebreaker.




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

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  3. #3
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    This potentially could be my favourite Paradox release in years. The characterisation is immensely deep and the gameplay is really challenging. The AI still does some implausible things, as with all Paradox titles, such as France attacking into Spain against the Muslim countries. The game has an incredible amount of depth, with all your Baronies, Towns and Bishoprics having their own 'courts' that will plot and scheme against each other to try to get the best results fo rhtemselves. You can just let it play out as they want or you can assassinate people who you don't want any more.

    Think of this as Game of Thrones in a real-world context.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
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  4. #4
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Its out? Damn, I lost track of the days in my SWTOR binge, I was gonna buy this one the moment I read a good review (and probably even a bad one). There goes by drinking money
    Indeed. It snuck onto the market over Valentines Day if i recall. I was too busy then or I would have made a thread on release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voigtkampf
    I played the preview version, and really liked the new style of gameplay (more realistic than general medieval strategy games, this being more of a strategic RPG), alas, with so little time recently, I couldn't really go into depth. Now I am still struggling with finding some time for the full game, just managed to play for half an hour so far, but I once again like it. So far there is only one issue that can ruin your day, and that is the fact that AI seems to be able to carry out assassination attempts galore, not really requiring any money for it, and being utterly relentless in it. It reminded me somewhat of my old M:TW days with my spy rush tactic; I'd mass spies in a certain country, move to the neighboring one, stay there one turn, rebellions break out (there were a LOT of spies there!) and I move to the next province. Rinse and repeat. Here, the AI seems to be cheating with assassinations. But its not a gamebreaker.
    Sounds like something that will get a patch eventually. I didn't notice that in the demo, but to be fair, i was so busy trying to keep things together in the demo that I really couldn't do anything else! The tutorials really dont feel like they give you half the information you need, especially when it comes to the council mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach
    This potentially could be my favourite Paradox release in years. The characterisation is immensely deep and the gameplay is really challenging. The AI still does some implausible things, as with all Paradox titles, such as France attacking into Spain against the Muslim countries. The game has an incredible amount of depth, with all your Baronies, Towns and Bishoprics having their own 'courts' that will plot and scheme against each other to try to get the best results fo rhtemselves. You can just let it play out as they want or you can assassinate people who you don't want any more.
    Ah the blue blob returns. It seems its a continuing problem in these types of games! Hopefully that will get balanced as I saw a number of threads complaining about it on the paradox forums. I know the feeling about the depth, i only got a taste but what I tried i definitely liked. I was really shocked by how little control most Kings begin the game with, with your vassals scheming and (at times) warring with one another. I have to admit I spent about 15 minutes trying to figure out how to stop my vassals fighting each other until I realized I couldn't. Not without major law reforms that take decades to implement.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    I've been playing this for serialised review on 'Matchsticks for my Eyes' so a lot of my thoughts will end up there. I'll link when the first part goes up. All the same, it will be nice to discuss a little.

    CK2 makes my inner medievalist go squee. It's complete gravy for anyone with an interest in the period. The 'time machine' and historical characters are the subject of my first serial article, so for now suffice it to say I'm impressed.

    Design-wise, they have addressed some of the biggest gaps in CK1. Female inheritance is finally present and inheritance laws are one giant step closer to historically correct for the majority of Christendom. Barons and mayors are present. Plots and intrigue are in. Crown authority is reworked. There's a wider array of religions, although you are still limited to playing as a Christian. Empires are in. Anti-Popes have come to town. There's a lot of additions.

    For the most part it's fair to say that when it comes to games like EUIII et al I'm more a fan of the concept rather than the execution. CK2 addresses some of my long-standing Paradox grumbles, and may well manage to field several others. It's too early to tell on issues like AI quality or gameyness. I can say that it's got atmosphere, personality, and IMO is intuitive and plays quite sensibly - although that could be due to the ungodly number of medieval history books I've read. It doesn't feel like it's missing chunks of content - yet. The music is simply wonderful.

    The game is fantastic at producing stories. Everywhere I go people are reporting awesome games. Everywhere except here, gah! Since I know I won't be using this material in the serial, here's a recap of my first go. It's in the form of wall of text stream of conciousness I'm afraid, sorry. I'd edit it into better shape but then it would lose half the feel. I set out to play as the King of Sicily in the Third Crusade scenario and ...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Gah! I've accidentally picked the eldest son instead of the king of Sicily. I can't be bothered to restart; I'm first in the succession anyway so I'll be king sooner or later. In the meantime I'll stay peaceful and build up my demesne, then I'll have a stronger base to crusade from. Wars? Rebels? More wars? Yet more wars? What's my AI father playing at - is he trying to get us all killed!? Now his vassals are rebelling too and are headed for *my* lands! ARGH - quick, mercenaries! Oh no, oh no, oh no - Muslims! Bankruptcy! Phew, just about survived, now maybe I can disband my armies and get a bit of cash. More rebels! Nooooo! Yes! AI Daddy has won his war and made peace. I survived. Somehow. Just. Now I have no money and most of my armies are dead. Oh, he's giving me a lot of new land in Africa. That's nice. Wait - it's all completely useless: no levies, no income, nothing but a bunch of angry Muslims until 20 years have passed from conquest. Gee, thanks AI Dad. Another war?! More rebels! But I nearly had some actual money for once, why me!? Argh Muslims again! Oh no, my useless African lands are invaded - quick, to the ships! Over 2,000 more Muslims! Bankruptcy! I'm doomed, doomed forever! Foiled plots in my court! Oh look, some male relative is trying to steal my ducal title, also more rebels. My chaplain has turned heretic, off to prison you go. I have none of the money, ever. Argh, Muslims! Yay, little brother came to my rescue in one province. Oh, AI Dad won another prestigious war and here's me hanging on by the skin of my teeth fighting the bajillions of invading armies he attracts without reward or recognition. Bah! I should rebel against him if I ever get some money. Oh confoundations - more rebels all over everything! My new chaplain has turned heretic. Woo, take that, imprisonment for you rebel count dude! Now to arrest the other rebel vassal I just defeated - argh he escaped and has rebelled again! It's not fair, it's just not fair at all! Now what? My spymaster's been arrested by Byzantium - dastardly scum! Ok, re-rebelling escaped prisoner dude has no army except his castle garrisons so while I can hardly hurt him, he can't hurt me at all. Hey - the Pope sent an army in after rebel dude. That's nice. But why? I don't understand. Oh well, gift horse and mouth and all of that, let's just be happy that hideous death has been staved off for a bit longer. AI Daddy released my levies so I can scrape together an army to finish to escaped rebel re-rebel dude. And done. The realm is quiet at last. My armies consist of 3 guys total because everyone else is dead, but now maybe I can have some peace since dear AI Daddy isn't at war with anyone and the last crop of rebels are all dead. And breathe.

    Oh noes, more messages! Two more useless African provinces for me? Thanks AI Dad. I'm going to start plotting your murder now because it's clearly a case of you or me. Woo, Children at last! I was beginning to think that the happy couple couldn't figure out what to do. It 'only' took them 9 years. Twins. Better and better. Whaaaaat!? You have got to be joking! The boy has the trait 'drooling moron' and the girl hates me because from the hour of her birth she's planning to usurp my titles. Nooooo! Doomedness unto the next generation! Wait! I'm impressed with her go-get attitude and if I kill her brother she can be my heir. Now, to save up 50 gold and pray I get lucky. Should I kill AI Daddy or moron boy first? Hmm, decisions decisions. 38 gold, getting close to murder time - argh my second brother's trying to kill me. I'll hunker down and pray I keep getting lucky in the defensive rolls since I can't afford to do anything about him yet. My third chaplain has gone heretic - is it something in the drinking water? 45 gold, nearly, nearly. More wars! There goes all of my gold. I was so close to the 50! I am cry. There go the rebels again. And there go my vassals, sick of serving a bankrupt army-less weakling. Argh, Muslims! GIANT Muslims! I'm just going to sit here quietly and hope they don't head in my direction since 100 chaps with pitchforks won't manage to kill nearly 3,000 chaps with swords. Oh hurrah they're going to kill the Pope instead! That's fine. Argh, different Muslims all over my African lands again! What a surprise: my character died of stress leaving a 1 year old drooling moron to inherit. My new chaplain has accused one of my best vassals of heresy, suppose it makes a chance from becoming a heretic himself. Now his sister is trying to kill moron boy. That's good. Then I can be her and have stats better than 0 in everything. Oh wait, my uncle has come to take everything I own including the cookie jar and I have no army and just a single gold piece. Can I be my uncle? No, I can't be my uncle because drooling moron boy isn't dead so I'm trapped as him, unable to do anything at all from my single remaining useless African province waiting for the next blob of Muslims to come party. Damn! This is all your fault, AI Granddad!"


    That's 11 years, or 3 hours, worth of play. Fun! Biggest lesson learned: if you accidentally select the wrong person to play as, kill your AI Daddy before he squanders your starting money and leaves you unable to afford assassins. Alternatively: don't be the vassal of an AI liege in a very challenging, aggressive kingdom. Or maybe: when gifted useless provinces, pass them along down the feudal food chain so someone else suffers ... although I'd probably have been required to defend my vassal anyway.

    As you may be able to tell from my repeated "Argh, Muslims!", the wartime AI isn't great. AI Daddy sent all of his troops across to Africa whilst his various enemies sent most of their troops over to Sicily. If it hadn't been for my frantic efforts at home defence AI Daddy wouldn't have done nearly as well in his wars. Those useless African provinces were the main cause of my downfall; I had to keep sending my mainland armies over to defend them, leaving me stretched much too thin and having to pay for ships as well as soldiers. If I ignored them then the AI got large amounts of warscore against me and peace became impossible.

    I begin to question whether the plot mechanics are off balance. Someone figured out prior to release that due to the way the menu of potential plots works, female characters are blocked from nearly everything. Most of them will only have the option to try and assassinate people. Characters are supposed to initiate plots instead of sitting around like vegetables. Thus it was speculated that there would be a rash of crazed female murderers. Paradox said this wouldn't happen. However, I'm finding that nearly all of the murder plots I learn about are formed by female characters, and that there's quite a few of them occurring once the game's been going for a few years. It's too early for me to say whether it is a problem or not but I'm starting to do that sceptical squint of mine.

    NB: If you care about knowing where reviewers obtained their game, my copy was provided by Paradox. Sadly they failed to offer me money in exchange for a 9/10.
    Last edited by frogbeastegg; 02-17-2012 at 15:45.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  6. #6
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    I begin to question whether the plot mechanics are off balance. Someone figured out prior to release that due to the way the menu of potential plots works, female characters are blocked from nearly everything. Most of them will only have the option to try and assassinate people. Characters are supposed to initiate plots instead of sitting around like vegetables. Thus it was speculated that there would be a rash of crazed female murderers. Paradox said this wouldn't happen. However, I'm finding that nearly all of the murder plots I learn about are formed by female characters, and that there's quite a few of them occurring once the game's been going for a few years. It's too early for me to say whether it is a problem or not but I'm starting to do that sceptical squint of mine.
    In my Munster game the only murder plot that I've seen is from my Count's spymaster trying to kill a Bishop so that he can take over as the new Bishop. So far I haven't seen any female murder plots, but then again I'm only about 20 years into one game.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
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    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  7. #7
    The Anger Shaman of the .Org Content Manager Voigtkampf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    ...I'm finding that nearly all of the murder plots I learn about are formed by female characters...
    If I say "figures-art (in this case game) imitate RLTM", does that make me sexist or simply insightful?

    But in all honesty, I'd kill for a game that would marry TW series (as far the graphic, combat and gameplay are concerned) with Paradox strategic depth. Wouldn't mind working on one myself.




    Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

    Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book

  8. #8

    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Part 1 of my CK2 serial has been made available, if anyone's interested. Behold the time machine! I'm trying to focus these segments on gameplay categories or on neat features which are not being talked about much. I don't intend to go the 'cool story' route since the internet is flooded with them.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.

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    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Very nice read, perhaps we should encourage schools to make CK2 part of the history curriculum.

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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Is the Legacy of Rome DLC worth it? I dont have an interest in playing as the Byzantines, but I like the concept of a standing army.
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    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Is the Legacy of Rome DLC worth it? I dont have an interest in playing as the Byzantines, but I like the concept of a standing army.
    Retinues are definitely a game-changer. I can't say whether they make the game more or less deep in terms of strategy, but they definitely change things up. I think it's also probably the way the developers mean for the game to be played.

    Every culture does get it's own unique retinue type, so you don't have to play as the Byzantines to get something out of the DLC.

    That said, if you don't actually want to play as the Byzantines... I honestly don't know if it's worth buying just for the retinues. Maybe get it when it's on sale, if at all?
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  12. #12
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotix View Post
    Retinues are definitely a game-changer. I can't say whether they make the game more or less deep in terms of strategy, but they definitely change things up. I think it's also probably the way the developers mean for the game to be played.

    Every culture does get it's own unique retinue type, so you don't have to play as the Byzantines to get something out of the DLC.

    That said, if you don't actually want to play as the Byzantines... I honestly don't know if it's worth buying just for the retinues. Maybe get it when it's on sale, if at all?
    Yeah, I plan to get it when it goes on sale for the steam summer sale. But thats so far away from now...

    EDIT: Impulse/gamespot had it on sale already, though Old Gods isnt on sale yet so Ill wait for that.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 06-12-2013 at 00:08.
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    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    I'm presently debating whether or not to go ahead and get The Old Gods now or wait for a sale. The idea of trying to create an Irish kingdom at the new start date is very enticing.

  14. #14
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    So after much fighting and taking advantage of an already weak English empire, I succeeded from England, creating a free Scotland. Obviously this didnt sit well with the English empress but what was she gonna do, as her armies were depleted and Im awesome. Anyhow, later on I set up my heir to marry the non-dynastic heir of the English empire. Then the king I was playing as died and I assassinated the old empress of England so now my queen was also Empress of England. So now my heir can unite both England and Scotland into one happy empire under my command. The Dunkeld dynasty has gone from lowly dukes to possible emperors, this game is amazing.

    EDIT: Also, because the Empress of England is my wife, she cant declare war on me so England isnt a threat.

    I really gotta take a picture of this.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 06-12-2013 at 04:03.
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  15. #15
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    It is, though I really gotta bring a bigger army next time, especially if I want to raid southern England. My last raiding party got jumped by a massive English force and was defeated.
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  16. #16
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Here's my Doux of Epirus campaign, as promised:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    It's definitely a tough start. This guy is my first king, and the game started about 80-100 years ago. The Kingdom of Greece is so big that right now I hold just barely over half of its provinces, which I needed to form it.

    The Byzantines in Nicaea bounced back early on and wound up becoming a major competitor to uniting Greece. Then they got eaten by the Rum Sultanate. And then the Rum Sultanate got eaten by the Ilkhanate, but they survived as a vassal and the weak Ilkhan's son let them go in an Independence demand.



    Think the Ilkhanate looks scary? It was even scarier. They have invaded Hungary twice, and won twice. Each time it has taken a full crusade to win it back. They also had a fully connected empire through Mesopotamia for a very long time. It is only recently that they are starting to weaken. They got stuck with a child ruler and got hit with both a crusade (for Hungary) and a Jihad for Mesopotamia at the same time, of which they lost both. Then there was the Turkish independence, and I also Holy War'd them for the Aegean Islands, which I won because they just couldn't get an army out there.

    They are still strong in numbers, but they can't move their troops quickly enough across their empire and the attrition-free doomstacks are gone. If they get hit with more than one war at once, they can't handle it.

    Rum looks small, but they are an absolute pain in the ass, because they have the Ghilman as vassals. This late in the game, and they can pull 20000 troops (including 5000 horse archers) out of nowhere. Not fun when you're expecting to go up against maybe 5000 and you bring your entire 25000 man levy as insurance, just to watch them get crushed by those horse archers. They actually forced me to surrender in an offensive Holy War. Next time, I bring my own mercs at the start.

    As for the rest of the world: Abbasids are looking strong, poised to take even more away from the Khan. Georgia is tougher than they look. They survived a Tengri Great Holy War, mostly because the Khan himself didn't join in. The HRE is only a little weaker than the Ilkhanate in terms of troops. England is gone, completely fractured into duchies. Lithuania is a pagan kingdom somehow, having defeated the Teutonic order and re-converted themselves.

    Overall, a fun game so far. I don't intend to expand beyond Greece, so I may port this one to EUIV.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    What do you do with prisoners?

    In one of my games I noticed that I have almost 20 prisoners and about 5 of them had been in my dungeons for more than 20 years. On poor woman have been prisoned more than 40 years (I guess it was during some war)! Many times when I try to ransom them I get negative response and that is how they stay there. I can't execute them because of the penalties. I did found it to be a very good way to keep couple of dukes from getting children (since their wives were prisoners of mine). This trick does not work against the Muslims though.

    So, what do you do with them and what is the longest someone have been your prisoner?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Become enlightened on Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham’s features and mechanics with the Paradox Development Studio team in a brand new developer diary:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...e-of-Cardinals

    Plunge into the powerful and profitable world of Papal politics, appointing your bishops, gaining influence with the College of Cardinals and reap the rewards of the Pope’s money and favours. Show your devotion with the Holy Orders; their clout will come in handy when you want to expel troublesome relatives to a monastery! Pick sides of the Islamic debate, choosing to follow the rationalist Mutazili or opposing Ashari or play as a Jewish lord and restore the Kingdom of Israel. Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham features hundreds of new religious events no matter what doctrine you follow!

    Get ready to get spiritual as you crusade your way to greatness in the name of YOUR one true god!

    Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham will release on all major digital-download portals on November 18, 2013.

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  19. #19
    strategy gamer Member Enemy Shooting Champion, Rabbit Hunter Champion, Eggs Champion, Kaboom Champion, Money Money Money Champion, Rapid Motion Champion, Super Fishing Champion komnenos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    I'm really glad to see that they are still expanding this game. By this expansion this game hasn't miss any religion.
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    He who has no bread has only one problem.

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  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Oh hell yes!
    #Hillary4prism

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  21. #21
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Hell, it's about time.

  22. #22
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Looks good. But what about the good old fashioned way of beating the Pope into submission and installing your vassal on the seat, thus making the Pope your vassal? It's great for the HRE for example (and anyone else who manages to make a Catholic empire).

    I can't wait for the news about holy orders!
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    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Is this game really that good? Seems to much strategy but no 3d -or even 2d- battles, right?
    Last edited by Buzghush; 01-24-2014 at 22:19.

  24. #24
    Member Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by PilaPis View Post
    Is this game really that good? Seems to much strategy but no 3d -or even 2d- battles, right?
    The key thing to understand about this game is that it's not about the battles, or even necessarily conquering land. It's all about the characters and the interactions between them, and the stories that creates. I know that sounds rather cliched, but it's the only way I can phrase it. Put it this way - it's definitely worth trying out, even with just the base game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    Will they ever stop with all these expansions? I sincerely hope not! ^^
    Great, just when I'd nearly found time for EUIV. They're shooting themselves in the foot - at this rate I'll never need to buy another game again, thus depriving them of future profit.

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  25. #25
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    The key thing to understand about this game is that it's not about the battles, or even necessarily conquering land. It's all about the characters and the interactions between them, and the stories that creates. I know that sounds rather cliched, but it's the only way I can phrase it. Put it this way - it's definitely worth trying out, even with just the base game.
    Battles are lots of fun though. Correct composition of the army flanks combined with a careful choice of generals would result in a very vs seemingly overwhelming (2:1 and even worse) odds. Very satisfying. Warfare in CK2 is NOT the "put together the largest stack possible and chew up everything in your path without giving any thought to what's in that stack", as that kind of thinking can easily get you killed. Unless you're Byzantine of course, in which case you just crank out the cataphracts and watch them destroy everything regardless of tactics/generals/terrain/whatever. Well, almost. But Cataphracts are very forgiving in terms of bad army management.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  26. #26
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Any specific tips on army composition?
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  27. #27
    Robot Unicorn Member Kekvit Irae's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Any specific tips on army composition?
    Lots and lots of archers if you want to kill. This is the glass cannon approach, as you will get absolutely decimated if you get in the Melee phase. Also, don't use these on the defensive. Running with all Longbowmen retinues, you can absolutely devastate armies. They will also wreck sieges if you use them to assault, as assaulting uses the Skirmish phase to determine enemy losses.

    Pikemen are the standard defensive unit, but they pale in comparison to Heavy Infantry. Still, they come cheap.

    Heavy Infantry is balanced enough to see you through both the Skirmish and the Melee phase, but don't expect miracles or auto-wins. These guys are wonderful if you want to win while keeping your own losses down. Mostly useful on the defense, they are also pretty good on the offense.

    Light Cavalry, despite their stats, actually fares decently in Skirmish and Melee, but it absolutely shines in the Pursuit phase. Just be sure to add in some heavy hitters into your army so you CAN get to the Pursuit phase.

    Heavy Cavalry is the king of the battlefield. Expensive and comes in small numbers, but their stats are beautiful all across the board. If you can afford them and have the appropriate culture, Cataphracts are THE go-to retinue. The only reason I favor Longbowmen over Cataphracts is because Longbowmen cost only 500 retinue cap. For levies, you will need a LOT of tech and buildings to get a decent amount of Heavy Cavalry.

    Light Infantry is garbage. Nothing more needs to be said, other than they are cheap if you need enough men to start sieging.

    As for army composition, I would suggest either 1) a balanced army, or 2) a specialized army for attacking/sieging/defending. Just take a look at what you want to accomplish, then take a look at the stats of the units, and build around that.

  28. #28
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Any specific tips on army composition?
    A lot depends on your culture. For example, if you run with the Italians, Pike and bow is a great overall combo.

    Example #1: mostly Defensive Retinue + some Skirmish retinue + a couple of Italian pure Pikes for the morale bonus. Led by an Italian/Scottish/English/Welsh general.
    Pros: Archers do great in the Skirmish phase. Pikes will break any charge.
    Cons: Does not (and should not*) contain any cavalry, does terribly in the pursuit phase, i.e. you can't catch the fleeing enemy.

    *This composition will be severely compromised if it contains cavalry, because that introduces all kinds of bad tactics for the general to pick. This combo is great for the army center, but flanks are better off with something different.


    Example #2: Straight up melee. The Norse of all kind excel at this
    Mostly Norse Huscarls + some Shock retinue + a sprinkle of Defensive retinue. Naturally, led by a Norse general.
    Pros: Do well defensively in the skirmish phase if the general puts up the shield wall. If a Norse general orders the berserker charge, this combo will slaughter the above Pike/Bow combo. Does exceptionally well in protracted melee.
    Cons: Knights will ride them down like grass. Not great at pursuit, does hardly any damage during skirmish.

    Note: minimize the presence of archers and cavalry in this combo to prevent bad tactics.

    Example #3
    Cavalry. This more than other combos depends on culture: if you have Knights, then great, They can handle themselves well and keep their Light Cav component alive as well. Naturally, Frankish and German generals are the best. You can mix in a few pikes, but avoid Archers or Heavy infantry. Best at charging and overall does well against everything except pikes.
    Altaic group Horse Archer combo (Horse archers + Light Cav). When Led by a Turkish or a Mongol general these guys are close to unstoppable. their HA's can swarm the enemy archers, the general's cultural tactic can keep combat in the perpetual Skirmish phase, and when it's all said and done, the light cav will make short work of the routers. Weaknesses: terrible in melee. They need to get charged and forced into melee. Repeatedly. Knights are optimal for this.

    Cataphracts: the ultimate I win combo. Knights + Horse archers is a damn near perfect combo that needs no additions. Led by a competent general of pretty much any culture these can do well. The good old Pike/Bow combo does well against them though.


    A few final thoughts:
    1. Diversify your flanks unless you're Byz or Mongol. You only need one flank with cavalry. Center flank should generally be infantry+Archers, and lots of both. The remaining flank can be whatever floats your boat.
    2. Specialize the flanks. Based on your cultural units, the generals that you have (including their traits and such), etc.
    3. Avoid mixing in too many troop types. Retinues slaughter levies. Why? it's not because of numbers or because retinues have better men, it's because a general levy army is a confused mishmash of all kinds of troops jammed together into a flank. Supposedly good at everything, but because of bad tactics ends up being bad at everything.
    4. Tactics. I'm talking about the choices that your generals will make. They're more important than unit quality and to a large extent more important than quantity. Unless you're outnumbering the enemy by 10:1, tactics will matter. Cultural tactics can make a lot of difference.
    5. ckiiwiki has a wealth of information on battle tactics. After I read it and implemented some ideas in practice, it gave me a brand new understanding and appreciation for combat in CK2: it's extremely detailed, and if you happen to be a quality vs quantity kind of guy, you'll love its intricacies.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by rvg; 01-27-2014 at 15:44.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

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