Time Travelers Timewarp [Concluded]

[Visor]

Alright then how would the sun of Earth do for you then?

[Montmorency]

Come again?

[Chaotix]

Vote: CountArach

Welcome back.

[Arjos]

Vote: Greyblades

Because he's a Lannister :P

[Greyblades]

Vote: Arjos

Bite me, Martell. :P

[Yaropolk]

Vote greyblades - because he's above me.

[Ishmael]

I'm going to lay out a preliminary notion that might help the town, so that you guys can all poke holes in it . If we keep the voting close (as in, either one vote in it or a tie), then at a later point somebody can go back and change their vote, and thus lynch the other person. If one or more people mysteriously come back to life as a result of this, then we know we've caught a mafioso. If the original lynch was a mafioso, then they still weren't killing between their lynch and resurrection, so the town still comes out ahead. And if the mafia tries to interfere with this somehow, they'll either show their hand or waste their time-travel, which is a net win for the town. So, what have I overlooked?

As a result of the above, vote: Arjos (also because we never got to invade you like we planned :D)

[Montmorency]

If one or more people mysteriously come back to life as a result of this, then we know we've caught a mafioso. If the original lynch was a mafioso, then they still weren't killing between their lynch and resurrection, so the town still comes out ahead.

First point: it does not obtain that an individual who at a later point alters the vote is Mafia. Not at all.

Second point: look back to the host's notice that orders should be sent nightly, because n the event of resurrection they will immediately be implemented.

And if the mafia tries to interfere with this somehow, they'll either show their hand or waste their time-travel, which is a net win for the town.

Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

Vote: Ishmael

[CountArach]

Vote: CountArach

Welcome back.

I said be gentle

Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

Vote: Ishmael

This is a remarkably good point though at the same time it seems unlikely that the mafia would also be one-shot so I don't think that it's is a slip-up.

Regardless I do like the general argument of keeping the voting close until we can be fairly certain. At the very least it gives us the chance of saving any pro town roles. It also makes it harder for the time police/mafia to hide.

Vote: Ishmael

[Ishmael]

First point: it does not obtain that an individual who at a later point alters the vote is Mafia. Not at all.

Second point: look back to the host's notice that orders should be sent nightly, because n the event of resurrection they will immediately be implemented.

I'm not suggesting that - I'm saying that if a townie (or a mafioso, theoretically) alters a previous day's lynch then the pattern of kills, and so the people 'presently' alive, will change. That would be a clear indication that the person lynched or un-lynched was mafia (or a serial killer. If there is a vigilante, then all bets are off).

Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

As I was typing up my response to this, I double-checked my role PM and realised that you are correct on this. Nonetheless, my point still stands (to an extent) as the mafia can't kill on a night that they are time-travelling.

A question for CB - does all time travel occur at night?

[Montmorency]

A

question for CB - does all time travel occur at night?

No.

I'm not suggesting that - I'm saying that if a townie (or a mafioso, theoretically) alters a previous day's lynch then the pattern of kills, and so the people 'presently' alive, will change. That would be a clear indication that the person lynched or un-lynched was mafia (or a serial killer. If there is a vigilante, then all bets are off).

Well, this doesn't quite work. I need to reformulate...

[Montmorency]

This scenario is possible if dead players can cast Potential Votes, made effective in the event of undeath:

Townie votes for A on Dx. A is lynched in tie-vote with B. A casts Potential Vote on Y, who is Mafia.
On D(x+1) X wins a tie-vote with Y. Y is scum, and puts in a Potential Kill on Z (for N[x+1]).
On D/N(x+2), Townie goes back to change vote to B. B is lynched, A is unlynched, so Y is unlynched, and Z is Night-Killed on N(x+1).

And yet, Neither A nor B were scum.

I can't be bothered to look back; is that condition accounted for in the rules?

This can get pretty convoluted. I think we're guaranteed to see a paradox or two; good that those responsible will be killed off as a rule.

[Ishmael]

Good point, potential votes would throw things out of whack. I still maintain that even then, by reversing lynches we can gain useful information, as long as the town thinks it through carefully and doesn't leap to false conclusions.

As to my earlier question, I phrased it poorly - what I meant to ask was whether time travel is always a night action, or can be used during a day phase. I assume it's the former, otherwise the mafia would be able to kill people at their normal rate whilst also wreaking havoc by time-travelling during the day phases.

[Montmorency]

I take it to be once per round (i.e. day+night).

Unvote;

[CountArach]

I'm confused, can you please explain that in a vaguely non-mathematical way?

The more I think about this the more I realise that our best bet would be to have an almost tied vote every day between two different people so that at any given point we can go back and change to lynch someone that we suspect. That is to say at the end of day 2 we will have 4 people who are able to be killed at short notice, at the end of day 3 we have 6 people, etc, etc. This would mean that the degree of certainty that we need to lynch someone who is scum would be lower, as we can just make any real suspects one of these two people.

[Montmorency]

That would surely depend on the number of players with vote-changing abilities, and their alignments.

It would be better seal the deal and take the consequences, rather than open up the possibility for shenanigans which I don't have the inclination to fathom ATM.

[Montmorency]

Noticed an error, corrected in bold:

Townie votes for A on Dx. A is lynched in tie-vote with B. A casts Potential Vote on X (not Y).
On D(x+1) X wins a tie-vote with Y. Y is scum, and puts in a Potential Kill on Z (for N[x+1]).
On D/N(x+2), Townie goes back to change vote to B. B is lynched, A is unlynched, so Y is unlynched, and Z is Night-Killed on N(x+1).

Basically, if players can cast votes which are redeemed in event of undeath (and we know scum can place kill orders in the same manner), then it is possible to arrive at a result wherein a vote-change ability is used that inadvertently resurrects a Timecop, who then has been around to NK a townie who would otherwise have lived.

[CountArach]

That would surely depend on the number of players with vote-changing abilities, and their alignments.

Assuming that all townies can go back and change their vote on any given day then it shouldn't be a problem. In fact it naturally plays into the town's advantage of numerical superiority.

[Montmorency]

What is your ability?

[CountArach]

Basically, if players can cast votes which are redeemed in event of undeath (and we know scum can place kill orders in the same manner), then it is possible to arrive at a result wherein a vote-change ability is used that inadvertently resurrects a Timecop, who then has been around to NK a townie who would otherwise have lived.

But that would give us the certainty that they are a time cop and they can be lynched either during the day phase or by going back in time and lynching them again - which would allow for a double lynch.

[Montmorency]

But that would give us the certainty that they are a time cop and they can be lynched either during the day phase or by going back in time and lynching them again - which would allow for a double lynch.

But if there should be more than one link in the chain, we couldn't be sure? That was the simpliest example I could conceive, after all...

[CountArach]

What is your ability?

Vote chaning. Et tu?

[Montmorency]

Sure.

And now we all have to prove it tonight?

Hoo boy. Any stats guys want to develop a game-plan for all of us, that would guarantee alignment confirmation based on determined votes and vote-changes?

We need outside experts!

[SalmonSoil]

We should go with the near-tie vote plan. Every day we do this gives over half of the players the power to change who lives and dies on every day after that day. After a few days we will all have the power to change who is alive and dead. Because everyone will abuse this power to try kill people who they believe are scum or save those they think are innocent, we will arrive at a state where who is alive and who is dead is constantly shifting. This means that we will rapidly shift through the different possible combinations of alive / dead players. As soon as we hit a combination where both scum are dead, we win.

In this situation it is actually better to have as many peoples lives threatened by the near-tie vote, as it gives more players power over life/death on that day and allows for more combinations. At the moment Ishmael, Arjos and Greyblades all have 2 votes. I will vote: Montmorency so that he now also has two votes.

[Montmorency]

I think it is a grave mistake to assume that

As soon as we hit a combination where both scum are dead, we win.

is the logical conclusion.

Why do you say over half, by the way?

Alright, 2/16 have claimed a vote-change ability.

So...

[Ishmael]

Alright, 2/16 have claimed a vote-change ability.

This is going to be a fairly standard kind of set up for a game with one major exception. Every single character will have the ability to go back to either a night or a day phase at any time in the game and change their action on that day or night.

Judging by this, I'd say that everybody has a 'vote-changing ability' - it doesn't appear to be unique. If their are doctors or vigilantes, I imagine they could change their orders as well, but I doubt there are seeing as it would make things more complicated and the host said it would be a fairly standard game.

EDIT: Yay, I just reached the devil post count! I'm tempted to leave the .Org now and never come back, just to preserve it.

[Visor]

^^ I agree with Ishamel.

I don't believe that there is any doctors or vigilantes. Simply too complicated. It's a standard vanilla game, 14 town and 3 mafia, IMO.

[Montmorency]

Well, that's embarassing! Of course, that means a cop could go go back in time instead of kill (while dead).

With everyone flipping around their votes willy nilly, you won't learn a single useful thing.

It shouldn't be that confusing I hope if anything the confusion will happen on my end. Basically when a person going back in time changes an outcome you will simply appear or disappear in the next write up.

So Vote: Count Arach.

Go ahead. Let's have half the players tied. I'd love to see how this works out.

It's a standard vanilla game, 14 town and 3 mafia, IMO.

When you die the game is not over for you. Since at any point you might come back in the game you must continue to send in votes and night actions the same as anyone else if you are resurrected these actions will go into force straight away.

I was right about this. Also, why do you think there are 3, necessarily. Could be 2, could be 4.

[Visor]

Vespasian. 3 mafioso. It is also the general accepted standard here if I'm not wrong?

[CountArach]

Vespasian. 3 mafioso. It is also the general accepted standard here if I'm not wrong?

I would have assumed 2 for a game this size.