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    Default This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives



    How does this happen? How is this person one of just 435 people in control of the nation's purse strings? His incoherent ramblings would seem more of a fit for a milk crate on the steps of a public library than the corridors of power in the most powerful nation on earth. What was it Churchill said about democracy?

    I know this isn't the first example of such antics on the House floor and it surely won't be the last, but they always make me wonder how anything gets done in Washington. I think lobbyists get a bad rap. I would rather have some kind of professional, even one with vested interests in a particular outcome, craft legislation than the person shown above.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 03-29-2012 at 02:57.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Is this thread about idiots in the government or that little thug that got shot?

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    that little thug that got shot?
    This helps explain where you go on your prolonged absences from the Org.

    As for Bobby Rush, he has a long history of grandstanding. He not the first, the best, nor the most embarrassing.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    This helps explain where you go on your prolonged absences from the Org.

    As for Bobby Rush, he has a long history of grandstanding. He not the first, the best, nor the most embarrassing.
    Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

    I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.

    "Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
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    - Justinian I

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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Another one of our stellar representatives...

    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 03-29-2012 at 06:46.

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Bah I see your clowns and raise you a complete rogue apparently his biggest regret is not getting a sports stadium built.(the financial crash of course being nowhere near the list of regrets)



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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

    I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.
    Even allowing for the dreadful "stand your ground" law, the chap who shot him should have been arrested on suspicion of murder. His defence on those charges would have been he was assaulted and responded appropriately. For him not even to be arrested is where the trouble arises. That he was even advised by the police not to follow the individual which he ignored hardly helped his case. He intentionally placed himself in harm's way and shot his way out of it.

    I hardly keep up to date with all times unarmed suspects are shot. Perhaps there are dozens of white suspects getting executed as well. Does anyone have the numbers broken down by race?

    Suspended from school is not sufficient reason to gun someone down.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Graphic's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

    I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.
    As said, there's no evidence wannabe Rorschach was assaulted, but even if he was, put yourself in Trayvon's shoes: what would you do if some creepy a-hole was stalking you at night while you were just out getting snacks and you feared for your life. Would punching him really be out of the question? Nevermind the fact that Trayvon looked like he weighed 120 pounds.

    People downplaying this or dismissing it out of hand are playing the rape card, like a twisted version of "oh well she was wearing slutty clothes, she was asking for it!" The fact that you even mentioned that he was suspended from school is ridiculous because it's completely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Even allowing for the dreadful "stand your ground" law, the chap who shot him should have been arrested on suspicion of murder. His defence on those charges would have been he was assaulted and responded appropriately. For him not even to be arrested is where the trouble arises. That he was even advised by the police not to follow the individual which he ignored hardly helped his case. He intentionally placed himself in harm's way and shot his way out of it.

    I hardly keep up to date with all times unarmed suspects are shot. Perhaps there are dozens of white suspects getting executed as well. Does anyone have the numbers broken down by race?

    Suspended from school is not sufficient reason to gun someone down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    And yet... he made the point he was trying to.

    He put on a hoodie, and was immidiately told to step down because of the hood.

    As far as this guy not being arrested - I have seen no evidence he was assaulted yet, and the man he shot was unarmed.

    As such, he should have been arrested, questioned, and then charged and bailed. When a man dies by your hand you should be tried in a court of law, not just let off.
    This
    Last edited by Graphic; 03-29-2012 at 12:54.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Uh-oh. Watch out, here come the crazies...

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justic...?iref=obinsite
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him [...] his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.
    This is a kind of strange perspective to take, especially given that video of the shooter taken a short time after this supposed assault shows the shooter completely unmarked. Nothing on his face, not limping, no marks, no grass stains, nothing. Surely if he were assaulted so fiercely that lethal force was appropriate, he would show some indication of having been in a fight, yes?

    Besides which, the creepy thing is not the racial angle, but the legal one. The notion that I can shoot an unarmed person dead on a public street and not even get taken into custody? Please tell me how that is not insane. At the absolute minimum the police should have taken the shooter, relieved him of his weapon, and interviewed everyone within a hundred yards to get the clearest picture of what happened. None of that occurred. To fall back behind, "Well, the kid was a thug," is thoughtless, mindless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.
    As you are clearly demonstrating. Think about the implications of this over-broad, over-reaching "Stand Your Ground" law. It's not good. Try to stop reflexively reacting to the racial angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphic View Post
    People downplaying this or dismissing it out of hand are playing the rape card, like a twisted version of "oh well she was wearing slutty clothes, she was asking for it!"
    There's more to it. The "Stand Your Ground" law originated with ALEC, a group which pushes a variety of far-right legal agendas. ALEC has been pushing various versions of "Stand Your Ground" in all 50 states, and this case marks a real setback. What to do? Ah yes, declare that the dead person was a thug who had it coming. That will work!
    Last edited by Lemur; 03-29-2012 at 14:55.

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

    I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.
    Another reason I'm glad that I don't live in the US of A. Being suspended from school for having an empty baggy that smells of weed brands you a thug. Another victory in the war on drugs.
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    I went and read some of this stuff today. I don't see why you guys object to the discussion of race.

    Basically, taking Zimmermans story as completely accurate, he had no excuse for shooting the kid. He was much bigger than him. And his description really sounds like he's an idiot who assumed that because martin was black he was on drugs or looking to steal something. It's perfectly legitimate to take this as an opportunity to talk about how bad that is.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    Another reason I'm glad that I don't live in the US of A. Being suspended from school for having an empty baggy that smells of weed brands you a thug. Another victory in the war on drugs.
    I generally don't care about drugs, or even how someone dresses. What brands an individual as a thug is acting like one. Fighting, vandalism, theft, ditching school repeatedly. Some of what's been brought forward isn't hard and fast, so I'll wait and see before I make my final decision, but it's very strongly leaning towards this kid was a thug and punk.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

    I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.
    Trial's over, verdict is in. I stand by my original assessments. This post has an excellent summary on Reddit that is 90-95% in agreement with all of my understandings: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei..._issue/cat97s2 . Kid was unfortunately a thug and a punk, and he earned that dirt nap. It's unfortunate when people die, in this case I'd probably lay a good part of the blame at the feet of Treyvon's parents. Raising one's kids to do the right thing and be good persons isn't easy, but it's a need, and I think Americans in generally are doing an increasingly lousy job at it.

    "Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Is this thread about idiots in the government or that little thug that got shot?
    I don't even know. The way this kid's death has been used by the usual suspects to promote racial division in this country to serve the agendas of groups from the National Action Network all the way up to the Democratic Party is as disgusting as it was predictable. Despite all evidence to the contrary, the antagonists desperately want need this to be proof that America is a racist nation and that black people are still oppressed in order to justify their own existence. A couple of weeks ago I made a post about the race industry in this country, and this is yet another clear example that it is running at full steam despite our supposed post-racial shift.

    Here in Memphis, at a rally supposedly in support of the young black man killed by a Latino, we were lectured on white oppression and the need to vote for Democrats to fight it.

    "If Trayvon had killed a white man, he'd be in jail right now," added Ervin.

    Before police were called, many at the rally say organizers started getting off point, bringing politics, police and racism into what was supposed to be a rally for Martin.

    "Memphis, Tennessee has the largest black population in the state of Tennessee, but yet it's ruled over by a white population a white minority population," ranted Ervin.
    I did not think the profiteers could sink any lower than the boy's own parents who trademarked his name and image to hock merchandise, but now we've got politicians trying to cash in on the ginned up racial outrage. It's a particularly sick kind of exploitation that is all too familiar in the United States.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I don't even know. The way this kid's death has been used by the usual suspects to promote racial division in this country to serve the agendas of groups from the National Action Network all the way up to the Democratic Party is as disgusting as it was predictable. Despite all evidence to the contrary, the antagonists desperately want need this to be proof that America is a racist nation and that black people are still oppressed in order to justify their own existence. A couple of weeks ago I made a post about the race industry in this country, and this is yet another clear example that it is running at full steam despite our supposed post-racial shift.

    Here in Memphis, at a rally supposedly in support of the young black man killed by a Latino, we were lectured on white oppression and the need to vote for Democrats to fight it.



    I did not think the profiteers could sink any lower than the boy's own parents who trademarked his name and image to hock merchandise, but now we've got politicians trying to cash in on the ginned up racial outrage. It's a particularly sick kind of exploitation that is all too familiar in the United States.
    While I agree that attaching racial issues on anything you can think of and that it is often to the detriment of justice and common sense, the truth still is that as long as the USA had existed, there has been a systematic and organized repression of the black people (and various other minorities, usually to the lesser extent). Just because the situation is improving and the blacks today are in much better position than 30, 50 or 200 years ago it is by no means equal and one would be naive to think that centuries old repression which are still applied in certain parts of US territory and US system would be so easily forgotten.

    Another point is that black population problems today are also in large part direct or indirect consequences of that centuries-old repression.


    You guys should have much, much higher level of tolerance for black people.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post


    How does this happen? How is this person one of just 435 people in control of the nation's purse strings? His incoherent ramblings would seem more of a fit for a milk crate on the steps of a public library than the corridors of power in the most powerful nation on earth. What was it Churchill said about democracy?

    I know this isn't the first example of such antics on the House floor and it surely won't be the last, but they always make me wonder how anything gets done in Washington. I think lobbyists get a bad rap. I would rather have some kind of professional, even one with vested interests in a particular outcome, craft legislation than the person shown above.
    And yet... he made the point he was trying to.

    He put on a hoodie, and was immidiately told to step down because of the hood.

    As far as this guy not being arrested - I have seen no evidence he was assaulted yet, and the man he shot was unarmed.

    As such, he should have been arrested, questioned, and then charged and bailed. When a man dies by your hand you should be tried in a court of law, not just let off.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Not to interrupt anyone's talking points, but this is generally why we have trials.
    Last edited by Lemur; 05-16-2012 at 15:02. Reason: Added linkage for anyone unclear on the role and process of a jury trial.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Not to interrupt anyone's talking points, but this is generally why we have trials.
    Yes. But now it will be a trial irrevocably tainted by sensationalist, likely false, media coverage. That's not cool.

    Honestly, it's beginning to look more and more like the local DA was right not to pursue the case. With all the information that's coming in, it's looking like a lost cause for the prosecution. If they took a look at the available information and decided not to waste resources taking the case to a trial that they think they'd lose, is that wrong?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 05-16-2012 at 18:06.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Honestly, it's beginning to look more and more like the local DA was right not to pursue the case. With all the information that's coming in, it's looking like a lost cause for the prosecution. If they took a look at the available information and decided not to waste resources taking the case to a trial that they think they'd lose, is that wrong?
    I don't see how declaring him innocent (after reading some media reports) is any better than declaring him guilty (after reading some media reports). Seems like you're indulging in the exact thing you're condemning, really.

    To repeat myself: Zimmerman deserves his day in court. That is all.

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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I don't see how declaring him innocent (after reading some media reports) is any better than declaring him guilty (after reading some media reports). Seems like you're indulging in the exact thing you're condemning, really.

    To repeat myself: Zimmerman deserves his day in court. That is all.
    I haven't declared him innocent. He is innocent until proven guilty. And I think proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is going to be a tall order. Is it unreasonable to ask if it's possible that the police and DA's office- the people that actually were on the scene -took a look at the situation and the evidence and concluded that the chances of conviction were so slim that it would be a waste of taxpayer funds?

    Can we acknowledge the possibility that he wasn't charged for good reason instead of because of corruption or incompetence? The reason he finally was charged was pretty obviously due to political pressure.

    Here's Alan Dershowitz calling the arrest affidavit "unethical and irresponsible":
    Last edited by Xiahou; 05-17-2012 at 04:52. Reason: punctuation
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I haven't declared him innocent. He is innocent until proven guilty. And I think proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is going to be a tall order. Is it unreasonable to ask if it's possible that the police and DA's office- the people that actually were on the scene -took a look at the situation and the evidence and concluded that the chances of conviction were so slim that it would be a waste of taxpayer funds.

    Can we acknowledge the possibility that he wasn't charged for good reason instead of because of corruption or incompetence? The reason he finally was charged was pretty obviously due to political pressure.

    Here's Alan Dershowitz calling the arrest affidavit "unethical and irresponsible":
    Oh, do shut up, and stop trying to derail the race baiter's agenda. You silly person!

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Gents, by stating there should be no trial, you are effectively declaring the defendant's innocence. Based on what you have heard or read in the dreaded, despised media. Get a grip.

    There is nothing controversial or remarkable about wanting the shooter of an unarmed man to have his day in court. If this was a case of justified self-defense, that is the venue. If this was manslaughter, reckless endangerment or something else, court is also the correct venue.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Gents, by stating there should be no trial, you are effectively declaring the defendant's innocence. Based on what you have heard or read in the dreaded, despised media. Get a grip.

    There is nothing controversial or remarkable about wanting the shooter of an unarmed man to have his day in court. If this was a case of justified self-defense, that is the venue. If this was manslaughter, reckless endangerment or something else, court is also the correct venue.
    The problem is that the case was opened for the sole reason of pleasing the lynch mob.
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    The problem is that the case was opened for the sole reason of pleasing the lynch mob.
    The reason their is a lynch mob is because of the failure to prosecute - in fact I would go so far as to say that the dubious failure to bring charges has most harmed Zimmerman.
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Gents, by stating there should be no trial, you are effectively declaring the defendant's innocence. Based on what you have heard or read in the dreaded, despised media. Get a grip.
    Once more, I'm not declaring his innocence- you've got our justice system backwards. What I'm asking is if you think it's conceivable that the police/DA's office did not charge Zimmerman with good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    There is nothing controversial or remarkable about wanting the shooter of an unarmed man to have his day in court. If this was a case of justified self-defense, that is the venue. If this was manslaughter, reckless endangerment or something else, court is also the correct venue.
    So, is there ever a case where one person can kill another in justifiable self-defense and not have to be charged with murder and go to trial in your opinion? If your answer is "yes", who determines that threshold? The police? The news media? Eric Holder?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    So, is there ever a case where one person can kill another in justifiable self-defense and not have to be charged with murder and go to trial in your opinion? If your answer is "yes", who determines that threshold? The police? The news media? Eric Holder?
    Not in public - if he invades your home, then yes, perhaps a trial would not be warrented, provided you did not shoot him in the back.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  28. #28
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Not in public - if he invades your home, then yes, perhaps a trial would not be warrented, provided you did not shoot him in the back.
    But that's your personal opinion. Florida law isn't supposed to operate based on personal opinions.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  29. #29
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    But that's your personal opinion. Florida law isn't supposed to operate based on personal opinions.

    It's also a failry widely recognised Anglo-Saxon principle - that you have abetter legal defence if you didn't go looking for a fight.

    Zimmerman was looking for something - and if he thought it was a thief he should have called the cops.

    Here's a question to consider: If Martin was wailing on Zimmerman so hard how did Zimmerman shoot him?

    Seems like maybe Martin beat him down then backed off and Zimmerman shot him.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  30. #30
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody
    Basically Zimmerman's account looks more and more likely with the only question being - who started it?
    And more importantly, for anyone thinking of prosecuting the case... How on earth can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started it?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 05-17-2012 at 20:15.
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