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Thread: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

  1. #31
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    All of whatnpape said may be true, but it has nothing to do with learning, and as such should not be taken into consideration by a school.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #32
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    All of whatnpape said may be true, but it has nothing to do with learning, and as such should not be taken into consideration by a school.
    Sure it should. It's common sense.
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr View Post
    Surely you've just got to treat it on a case by case basis. If one pupil or a minority of pupils felt strongly about something that the rest were pretty indifferent towards, it hardly seems unreasonable to try to accomodate them to some degree.
    This seems a very reasonable response. The scrapping of Santa hats does rub me the wrong way, but may have been the best choice for the situation. Ultimately, it seems like it should have been the teacher's call, since they know the class best and planned the event in the first place. In this case, the teacher decided it would be better to forgo the hats. Is it the larger society's job to second guess them, not being privy to the details anyway?

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  4. #34
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Bug Juice Champion, Fly Shoot Champion, Crab Volleyball Champion, Iceberg Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, jetpacker Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, Killer Bob Champion, NFS Underground Champion, Speedy Thief Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    It is a religious minority imposing its views on a diverse majority. It is a monoculture problem of a blinkered world view and demanding all else walk in lockstep with them.
    No. There is a tendency to presume that people that are seen as having hardline religious views wish to impose them on everyone else, when in fact they really just want to be left alone.

    From the OP, it seems like this kid's parents did nothing more than inform the school that their kid would not take part in the event.

    They are isolating themselves from society, not demanding that it conforms to them.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  5. #35
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    ExposÚ the children to all of the festivals or none at all. Do not base choices on the desires of a single group, essentially the school has propagated JW teaching above all the others... Not doing something as it may offend a religios group is kowtowing to the unreasonable mindset that that groups way of life out ranks all others. That is neither democratic nor tolerant nor multicultural.

    Personally I would be happiest keeping religion in a 'comparative religion class' and minimizing exposure to such until a child is old enough not to take everything a teacher says as 100% true. I think it should be left as a teen/adult choice. Nor do I think the public person should be spent on pastors in schools as it is done in Aus.
    I agree with the first part, not with the second. Trying to shield children from religious belief is not only impractical, it is potentially damaging.

    If when a child asks, you a question like, "why does Mr Ahmed wear that funny hat", and you say, "because he likes funny hats" you'll probably just get another "why" which will lead you eventually to, "because he believes his God wants him to", and before you know it your child will ask, "do you believe that" or somesuch.

    Children are naturally curous and we can't just prevaricate until we think they are emotionally and intellectually mature. Nor can we refuse to answer their questions or try to give them adult or equivical answers.

    Human beings make sense of the world by telling stories, we are a talking species, and all our learning is done in stories. Children are not really capable of grasping complex adult stories, so we tell them simple ones, and we tell them concrete ones because children are vulnerable and like definitive answers.

    Finally, all education is indoctrination and brainwashing because the very purpose of education is to change the way our minds work and get them to absorb new ideas and thought processes. It doesn't matter what you tell the child be it, "first there was nothing and then the universe expanded," or "In the beginning it was dark and void was upon the deep" - in the child's understanding they are not very different, and whatever idea you give them will shape their worldview, but they will also eventually challenge, reprocess and aceept or reject those ideas.

    And, frankly, I think it is better for a small child to believe their is a big kindly giant in the sky watching over them than to believe there's noting above them than blackness because most children are afraid of the dark, and with good reason.
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  6. #36
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Looks like the parents just told the school he couldn't participate. Doesn't explain why it was scrapped altogether. Maybe the 'racist hatebloggers' were right, the school didn't like the commotion, and found an easy way out. In any case, the JW story would be a first, the blogger's take would be not. Me suspicious
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  7. #37
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Well I think parents should participate in their kids education. This includes teaching about different cultures. I'm against schools indoctrinating kids in any particular religion and it should be the parents/out of school training ie Sunday school.

    Also some though systems try and get adults to question the world around them. Keeping the childlike curiosity and why why why is part of the joy of science. Some thought systems teach absolutes and that the system cannot be questioned... Religious fundamentalism is not though provoking. On the other hand some of the greatest scholars have been part of religious or philosophical frameworks. So religion can be enlightenment and building up ones critical abilities or it can be used as an excuse to shut them down. It is a problem of human power plays not religion per se.

    After all it was a Belgium Jesuit that came up with he theory which was later named the Big Bang. So one cannot easily discount all religion due to the works of some.

    However religion should be a personal choice and it should not be a state decided one. As for learning about other religions and traditions this is a good thing and should not be blocked by splinter groups or even the majority.

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    This whole issue was simply badly handled by the school. It sparked a debate which dragged the Muslim community within that school's boundaries unfairly into it. They more than the JW should avoid this celebration, but are quite tolerant towards it.
    The school should have been more clear of why they acted as they did. And they did... eventually when the hit the fan.

    It is not the school's job to cater to fringe religious ideas as they did here, more so they forbade the wearing of the red cap, which not only is a Christmas hat, but a core Norwegian symbol. One that during the occupation in WWII was outlawed.
    That right there would have turned my blood to steam.
    And I have not touched the subject of extremism within minority religions. What these parents did is extremism, doing something extra to appease their deity, which if you look closely are not necessary. The lack of faith, that their kids would quite survive the Christmas celebration without emotional or physical damage is staggering.
    Even ajax would send his children to school with red nisseluer if there were such an event, as he would if the school decided to bring classes to the Lutheran church for a Christmas mass. Even if his faith don't believe Christ was born on the 25th of December. It is the spirit of it that counts... The season of good will to all men - one of the core messages of the very person that instituted their faith.

    This was a case of withholding important information, catering to fringe religious extremism and parents not understanding the religion they subscribe to.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 04-27-2012 at 07:59.
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  9. #39
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Who says the school speaks the truth?

    Fragony's alternative timeline: Bloggers were right, school gets a mail that someone should Breivik on them, gets taken seriously for obvious reasons, school finds usefull idiot to shove it on, Horetore opens topic 'see! See? SEEEEE?'

    Much more likely in any case
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Who says the school speaks the truth?

    Fragony's alternative timeline: Bloggers were right, school gets a mail that someone should Breivik on them, gets taken seriously for obvious reasons, school finds usefull idiot to shove it on, Horetore opens topic 'see! See? SEEEEE?'

    Much more likely in any case
    Paranoia strikes again!

    All wrong of course. Conspiracy theories are always good stories, often much better than the truth. They are wrong though, like this one is.

    This story is the latest development of a feud going back several years, between religious parents and atheist teachers, and atheist parents and religious teachers. Quite fun stories, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the principal.

    As for Sigurd's comment, no, the school should absolutely not give out information about its students. They should simply not give a crap about a public debates need for facts. A school has a responsibility towards the children going there, not the general public, who can sod off.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 04-27-2012 at 16:53.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  11. #41
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Paranoia strikes again!

    All wrong of course. Conspiracy theories are always good stories, often much better than the truth. They are wrong though, like this one is.

    This story is the latest development of a feud going back several years, between religious parents and atheist teachers, and atheist parents and religious teachers. Quite fun stories, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the principal.

    As for Sigurd's comment, no, the school should absolutely not give out information about its students. They should simply not give a crap about a public debates need for facts. A school has a responsibility towards the children going there, not the general public, who can sod off.
    A school, as a public institution is answerable to the general population in its capacity as a Civic Body. More specifically, it is responsible to ther elected politicians who are responsible to the Electors. If a school makes an unpopular change for a specific reason they should explain why when called upon to do so. Had they not the Civil Government would have been within it's rights to force the issue in this case on the grounds of public order.

    In another vein, Frag may be wrong but is also in a way right. It really matters not whether the school buckles under pressure from a single family adherring to a foriegn and minority religion from the East or from the West. In both cases the parents would be extremists who are practicing self ostricisation. In pandering to them the school has reinforced the message that the way people live outside their little group is wrong and that they should be resisted. The school demonstrated profound philosophical weekness, the Norwegian conviction of freedom of expression and freedom from interference in one's beliefs lost to the Jehovah's Witnesses' belief that the traditional red cap is Satanic.
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  12. #42
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    So you feel that the child should be sacrificed?

    Fortunately for school children, most teachers feel that children should not be sacrificed. The parents may be crazy, but there is no reason why the child shiuld be made to suffer because of it. I. This case, the negative consequences wouldn't affect the parents, who are the ones to blame, but the child who has no say.

    As for giving information, we are bound by law not to divulge information about the kids in our care to anyone but the childs parents, and in the case of criminal offences, to the relevant authority. So, hah.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #43
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    As for Sigurd's comment, no, the school should absolutely not give out information about its students. They should simply not give a crap about a public debates need for facts. A school has a responsibility towards the children going there, not the general public, who can sod off.
    It is the school's responsibility to give enough accurate information that would stop debates like the ones that followed the wake of this one. Especially if they take it to the public news!!!
    No need to hand out names or which particular class. Those who know the school would know anyway.
    Being vague about religious and especially cultural differences as a reason to not wearing a cultural symbol as the red cap - seems near intentional. As a, lets be clever and snipe at our opponent. Let's stir the pot a little, that'll show them. Some teachers needs to be told how stupid they are...
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    A parent in the class took it to the media, not the school.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  15. #45
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    I believe the implication was that JW's were the ones looking to sacrifice there childs educational development.
    They then proceded to demand everyone else sacrifice to accomadate there own nutjob belief in order to partake.


    Basically the school should have stood firm or next thing the JW's will be banning effectively for everyone what they determine to be satanic.
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    If a parent wants to sacrifice their childs well-being, there is no reason why the school should let them.

    Not wearing a santa hat isn't a sacrifice, not taking part in the social arena is.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  17. #47
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    If a parent wants to sacrifice their childs well-being, there is no reason why the school should let them.

    Not wearing a santa hat isn't a sacrifice, not taking part in the social arena is.
    You seem to be under the illusion I was thinking the santa debacle hat was a big deal, the big deal was nutjobs thinking a santa hat is satanic and getting teachers to back this idea.

    Everyone else was taking part yet the JW's were the ones saying they would pull out so there the defacto ones to blame are they not.

    If these nutjobs want to pull there kids out of social events for fear of satanic influence they they might as well off

    What use is the school system if it buckles to this rubbish.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 04-27-2012 at 17:31.
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  18. #48
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    A parent in the class took it to the media, not the school.
    Doesn't matter... When confronted by the media - they should simply not muddy the waters by vague inaccurate statements. They should have told it right the first time as they finally did: A fringe Norwegian ethnic religious society wanted so and so...and we catered to their demands. There, no names or class mentioned.
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    So you feel that the child should be sacrificed?

    Fortunately for school children, most teachers feel that children should not be sacrificed. The parents may be crazy, but there is no reason why the child shiuld be made to suffer because of it. I. This case, the negative consequences wouldn't affect the parents, who are the ones to blame, but the child who has no say.
    If the parents are that crazy the child should be in care.

    Otherwise, parents have ultimate responsibility for their child's wellbeing and if they genuinely feel the child will not benefit from partaking in what is, let us be clear, a non-Educational activity then they should be allowed to withdraw them.

    This was a little show at the end of the year - not basic arithmatic - and the school chose to sacrifice the majority's participation for not even the "minority" but for the one, or the two depending on your perspective.

    What if the child didn't want to participate because they thought it was Satanic?

    This was a victory over Satan for them, don't you get that?

    As for giving information, we are bound by law not to divulge information about the kids in our care to anyone but the childs parents, and in the case of criminal offences, to the relevant authority. So, hah.
    It's not about the child - it's about the parents, what the school actually did was potentially expose several Musim children to reprisals for something their parents hadn't even done. As Sigurd said, speficiying vague "cultural" diferences implies "non-Norwegian" which seems likely to direct animosity in a certain direction.

    So, hah, to you.
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  20. #50
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    A school show is defenitely not in any way a non-educational event. It is integral to education.

    And the law applies to information abiout the parents of a child as well as the child. So, hah, again.

    The school cannot be held responsible for what parents say the media, nor what the media makes of it or what the right-wing racists do.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 04-27-2012 at 17:34.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  21. #51
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    A school show is defenitely not in any way a non-educational event. It is integral to education.

    And the law applies to information abiout the parents of a child as well as the child. So, hah, again.

    The school cannot be held responsible for what parents say the media, nor what the media makes of it or what the right-wing racists do.
    How is the show educational, what are the Intended Learning Outcomes, or whatever you call them in Norway?

    I sat out several Christmas plays throwing up with stage fright, I don't think I suffered.

    If the school can't release any information then it shouldn't have released ANY information.
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  22. #52
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    How is the show educational, what are the Intended Learning Outcomes, or whatever you call them in Norway?

    I sat out several Christmas plays throwing up with stage fright, I don't think I suffered.

    If the school can't release any information then it shouldn't have released ANY information.
    1. Motivation and creation of a learning enviroment. There may be other goals as well, but I don't know what they did there, so I can't say. Expression in front of an audience is a central part of the curriculum in Norwegian, though.
    2. They didn't give out any information, until the pirincipal caved under pressure and said that muslims had nothing to do with it.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #53
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Paranoia strikes again!

    All wrong of course. Conspiracy theories are always good stories, often much better than the truth. They are wrong though, like this one is.

    This story is the latest development of a feud going back several years, between religious parents and atheist teachers, and atheist parents and religious teachers. Quite fun stories, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the principal.

    As for Sigurd's comment, no, the school should absolutely not give out information about its students. They should simply not give a crap about a public debates need for facts. A school has a responsibility towards the children going there, not the general public, who can sod off.
    Nah, just little feeling I get when things don't add up. How many times did this happen before. There is no backlash anyway, a sadistic LOL@christians is all good fun usually. And suddenly this? Nah must have gazed at rainbows, thought about awesome unicorns and needed damage control
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  24. #54
    Revoluntary Forum Administrator Tiaexz's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The child should have been excluded because society should not bend to the tyrnnical superstitions of the minority.
    And, yes, before you ask that means we should have gay "marriage" in this country provided that is the more-or-less informed decision of the greater part of the people.
    That is a very respectable position, PVC. To summarise: "I may not believe it in or be in favour of it, but it is wrong that my view should be forced upon others against the greater wishes".

    (Then again, such a view is a grey area for me, there are a couple of black/white ones where such a position is bad. But for grey area/compromises, it is good.)
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  25. #55
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    That is a very respectable position, PVC. To summarise: "I may not believe it in or be in favour of it, but it is wrong that my view should be forced upon others against the greater wishes".

    (Then again, such a view is a grey area for me, there are a couple of black/white ones where such a position is bad. But for grey area/compromises, it is good.)
    Essentially, yes.

    You'll not I said, "more-or-less infrormed", my objection to a lot of the modern debates, abortion, the legal status of homosexual couples, etc. has less to do with my own opinion and much more to do with the way the debate is formed.

    There are exceptions - slavery and child prostitution being good examples.

    In this case though, the issue is not so much what those red caps symbolised, but that these parents chose to interpret them in a certain way. The key thing for me is that there are other valid interpretations, most have either a vaguely Christian or Pagan historical context but Norway has a fairly laid back relationship with religion, by and large, and any resonable person should be able to get past the historical baggage.

    Where the school may have made a booboo is in calling it a "Santa show", if that is an accurate translation, because calling it that is potentially more contentious than just calling it a "Christmas show".
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  26. #56
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    That is a very respectable position, PVC.
    in society as a whole; most certainly.

    As for wording, the exact wording was "nissefest" and "juleavslutning". Doesn't translate well at all. A "nisse" isn't a santa, more of a mix between a santa and a leprechaun. "Fest" means "party". Unlike you english, we don't have a word for the event between 24. and 31. December involving christ. We use the old word "jul", or anglizised "yule". In fact, the names we have for the holiday doesn't have as much to do with christianity as it has with ┼satru.

    /end boring norwegianlecture

    Edit: oh, might as well add that those two words are the standard naming convention for these kind of events, like christmas party is in english.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 04-27-2012 at 22:48.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #57
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    in society as a whole; most certainly.

    As for wording, the exact wording was "nissefest" and "juleavslutning". Doesn't translate well at all. A "nisse" isn't a santa, more of a mix between a santa and a leprechaun. "Fest" means "party". Unlike you english, we don't have a word for the event between 24. and 31. December involving christ. We use the old word "jul", or anglizised "yule". In fact, the names we have for the holiday doesn't have as much to do with christianity as it has with ┼satru.

    /end boring norwegianlecture

    Edit: oh, might as well add that those two words are the standard naming convention for these kind of events, like christmas party is in english.
    OK, well that does shed some light on why the JH might call "Satanic" but, well, it's still unreasonable if they are the conventional terms.

    Also, technically, we don't have a word for the season other than Yule, we just nicked "Christ-mass" from the Latin Church.

    See, you Norwegians are too Protestant, so Protestant most of you are atheists!
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Protestant? Atheist?

    Nah... Nowadays, we sit in fields and get covered by angelfeathers....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Christmas is as we all know a Frankenstein's monster of different religion facets pasted over each other for the last few millennia, but is a tradition.

    No country is a finished picture. All it can ever be is an expression of a time and place. England isn't the same as in 1410 or in 1782. And it didn't exist at all 1500 years ago. There is nothing to defend. It will all change and change again. And when people look back they will see traditions as fleeting fashions and traditionalists as people who are slow to change fashions.
    Last edited by Idaho; 04-28-2012 at 13:39.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  30. #60
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: A muslim attack on christmas!! No, wait...

    Society always change naturally over time, sure. But multiculturalists don't have the patience for it. It's a dangerous form of social enginering, or rather social alchemy. Try putting 100 people on an island, give 50 a red shirt and 50 a blue shirt, it's guarenteed trouble even if they grew up together they will become enemies
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