Results 1 to 30 of 31

Thread: Secondary Boycotts

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Secondary Boycotts

    How dumb is this stuff?

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/04/me...h-off-the-air/

    http://volokh.com/2012/05/03/seconda...civil-society/

    Basically in a normal boycott, a company has an objectionable practice you don't like (dumping toxic waste or something) and you stop buying from them, and convince others to stop too. In a secondary boycott some public speaker or organization has a political belief you don't like or they say something offensive, and so you boycott all the companies that advertise on their show. I can't decide if the people doing this stuff are really that petty or if they are just boycotting "to be involved" like you get with a lot of political stuff. Either way we should grow up and let people say things we hate without trying to kick them off the air.

    Just goes to show that the populace and the media itself are of far more concern to anyone worried about free speech/level of debate in our country than government laws or money in politics.

  2. #2
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Far up in the Magnolia Tree.
    Posts
    3,550

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    It's really too bad. For awhile I thought it was just smut peddler, shock jock DJs like Howard Stern and Opie and Anthony whining about this stuff because of how it affected their radio shows, but it really is more serious than that. It's ruining comedy as well. Gilbert Gottfried and Tracy Morgan are comedians, they shouldn't have to apologize for telling jokes.

    The media are slaves to the corporations who are slaves to the masses that are fed by the media

    You're exactly right that this is much more worrying than even the FCC/government stifling. Insurance companies basically dictate how you have to live your life. You like smoking and eating junk? Then you're priced out of any coverage that every responsible person requires. Much more drastic than any government regulation/laws/tax. Some freedom

    These groups will end up soon with too much power over who can say what but how can it be stopped? I think we're going to have to live with this going on forever.

  3. #3
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,688
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat View Post
    Insurance companies basically dictate how you have to live your life. You like smoking and eating junk? Then you're priced out of any coverage that every responsible person requires. Much more drastic than any government regulation/laws/tax. Some freedom

    These groups will end up soon with too much power over who can say what but how can it be stopped? I think we're going to have to live with this going on forever.
    Being a child is expecting to do what one wants with no consequences.
    Being an adult one has to accept that actions have consequences.

    So you are free to do as you wish and deal with the consequences, one of which is expensive coverage as one's relative risk of morbidity and mortality is massively increased. Unless you think others should subsidise you then deal with it.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  4. #4

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Being a child is expecting to do what one wants with no consequences.
    When I was a child I expected to be punished for eating too many sweets

  5. #5
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    When I was a child I expected to be punished for eating too many sweets
    When I was a child, I ate too many sweets and got sick and my mother was "I warned you and explained to you this would happen, serves you right". Then I never ate too many sweets again.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-05-2012 at 16:21.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  6. #6
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    When I was a child and I ate to many sweets, I ate more sweets. Even that couldn't fill the cold void left by my absentee parents
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #7
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    [G]overnment law frees up corporate money in politics (good decision I think, but that's no matter).
    That's a whole 'nother thread right there. I think I'll side with Montana.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    So you are free to do as you wish and deal with the consequences, one of which is expensive coverage as one's relative risk of morbidity and mortality is massively increased. Unless you think others should subsidise you then deal with it.
    Yup, like it or not, citizens have latched onto secondary boycotts as a way of pressuring paid speech (not free speech). Sometimes it works, most often it doesn't. Kinda like most political/social initiatives. Curious for your reasoning as to why secondary boycotts are particularly bad, though.

    -edit-

    Does anyone actually have a "right" to commercial sponsorship and mass transmission of their speech? Does that right supersede the right of other citizens to put pressure on them? Seems like a case of speech vs. speech to this lemur. If a Million Moms want to propose a boycott of JC Penney for having Ellen as a spokeswoman, should they be barred from this activity? Should they not be allowed to spout off however they please? Should JC Penney be barred from responding?

    The law is a blunt instrument. I get that you don't like secondary boycotts, but I don't see what you're proposing. Clarify, perhaps?
    Last edited by Lemur; 05-06-2012 at 20:36.

  8. #8
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    That's a whole 'nother thread right there. I think I'll side with Montana.

    Yup, like it or not, citizens have latched onto secondary boycotts as a way of pressuring paid speech (not free speech).
    Bah. They are trying to suppress political opinions they don't like. The fact that the person is getting paid for such opinions isn't really relevant.

    Does anyone actually have a "right" to commercial sponsorship and mass transmission of their speech? Does that right supersede the right of other citizens to put pressure on them? Seems like a case of speech vs. speech to this lemur. If a Million Moms want to propose a boycott of JC Penney for having Ellen as a spokeswoman, should they be barred from this activity? Should they not be allowed to spout off however they please? Should JC Penney be barred from responding?

    The law is a blunt instrument. I get that you don't like secondary boycotts, but I don't see what you're proposing. Clarify, perhaps?
    Secondary boycotts aren't about speech, but about trying to prevent third parties from supporting the speech of someone you don't like. They aren't offering a different opinion, they just want to stop the original speaker from spreading his opinions.

    As for the solution - greater tolerance of other's opinions.

    And of course, Citizens United was as great decision. Just because people group up and form a corporation doesn't mean the government can restrict their speech.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  9. #9

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And of course, Citizens United was as great decision. Just because people group up and form a corporation doesn't mean the government can restrict their speech.
    Sure it does, because the corporation doesn't represent a goal in and of itself for the public interest. A corporation is out for money, nothing more and nothing less. Non profits are ok, because they are not out for themselves, they are advocating for some sort of change that they think will benefit a segment or the whole of society.

    It's funny because having Big Business allowed a voice in our government has led to everything the right-wing hates, which is government intrusion in the economy. Who do you think lobbies for such monopolistic and complex regulations to protect the status quo and punish small business and start ups?


  10. #10
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And of course, Citizens United was as great decision. Just because people group up and form a corporation doesn't mean the government can restrict their speech.
    By its own reasoning and logic, Citizens United appears to be a failure. Quite a lot of the language in the decision was about perception and appearances, generally saying that corporate cash could not and would not create an "appearance" of corruption. From the decision: "[T]he appearance of influence or access, furthermore, will not cause the electorate to lose faith in this democracy." Independent spending, according to the decision, does "not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption" and "influence over or access to elected officials does not mean that these officials are corrupt."

    Contrast and compare with Buckley v. Valeo (1976): "Congress could legitimately conclude that the avoidance of the appearance of improper influence 'is also critical if confidence in the system of representative Government is not to be eroded to a disastrous extent.' " Also compare with Nixon v. Shrink Missouri (2000): "Leave the perception of impropriety unanswered, and the cynical assumption that large donors call the tune could jeopardize the willingness of voters to take part in democratic governance."

    You start to see what a radical break Citizens United is.

    Corporations are not persons. Non-profits are not persons. Among other qualities, they cannot be executed by the State of Texas.

    I have no doubt Citizens United will be overturned. The only question is when.

    -edit-

    Getting back to the OP, the latest attempt at a secondary boycott has epically failed to silence a comedian, or even get one of his sponsors to roll over. This argues against the notion that small pressure groups are not about to rule our lives with censorship and chronic lack of freedoms. Clearly, the secondary boycott thing can work if there is a groundswell of outrage and support. Otherwise? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat View Post
    These groups will end up soon with too much power over who can say what but how can it be stopped? I think we're going to have to live with this going on forever.
    As I said, only if conditions are correct. If enough people get sufficiently angry this tactic can work. But as the Million Moms (who are actually 47 moms, there's a joke in there somewhere) and now Donahue's Catholic League demonstrated, small pressure groups will find this ineffective.
    Last edited by Lemur; 05-07-2012 at 15:22.

    Member thankful for this post:



  11. #11

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    How dumb is this stuff?

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/04/me...h-off-the-air/

    http://volokh.com/2012/05/03/seconda...civil-society/

    Basically in a normal boycott, a company has an objectionable practice you don't like (dumping toxic waste or something) and you stop buying from them, and convince others to stop too. In a secondary boycott some public speaker or organization has a political belief you don't like or they say something offensive, and so you boycott all the companies that advertise on their show. I can't decide if the people doing this stuff are really that petty or if they are just boycotting "to be involved" like you get with a lot of political stuff. Either way we should grow up and let people say things we hate without trying to kick them off the air.

    Just goes to show that the populace and the media itself are of far more concern to anyone worried about free speech/level of debate in our country than government laws or money in politics.
    You are presenting a false dichotomy here. I don't think there is one "main" threat to free speech. The funny thing about boycotts is that people lose interest sooner or later and advertisers come back after everything has died down. You can't say the same about government laws or money in politics.


  12. #12
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    I came here thinking this was about Marine Le Pen.

    Anyhooo....

    Government laws is one way to suppress free speech. Social norms another. People like John Stuart Mill argues that the latter form is worse and more dangerous than government regulations. I tend to agree with him in this.

    Such a boycott is aimed at suppressing another persons freedom of expression, by inflicting financial damage to silence him. Following the harm principle, liberty cannot be used to suppress another persons liberty, and do this kind of boycott is wrong.

    The solution? Certainly not government regulation, as that would be impossible to implement without collaterall damage. No, the answer lies in Jens Stoltenberg words of "more democracy, more openness". We must educate ourselves to have more respect for opinions which differ from our own.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #13

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat View Post
    These groups will end up soon with too much power over who can say what but how can it be stopped? I think we're going to have to live with this going on forever.
    I'm hopeful that this kind of thing will jump the shark. They tend to blow things way out of proportion, and they keep going from cause to cause, I think eventually people are going to learn to ignore it. Most do already probably, so I guess I mean they'll learn to mock it.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    You are presenting a false dichotomy here. I don't think there is one "main" threat to free speech. The funny thing about boycotts is that people lose interest sooner or later and advertisers come back after everything has died down. You can't say the same about government laws or money in politics.
    I stuck that bit in because you said it was one of the biggest threats. But look at it: government law frees up corporate money in politics (good decision I think, but that's no matter). Corporation (or union or whatever) buys ads. That's all minimal compared to the fact that the media coverage has a good chance of being poor, that the "experts" they call in come from ideological groups whose answers are completely predictable, and the politics junkies eat it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The solution? Certainly not government regulation, as that would be impossible to implement without collaterall damage. No, the answer lies in Jens Stoltenberg words of "more democracy, more openness". We must educate ourselves to have more respect for opinions which differ from our own.
    More respect for other opinions, and more shame at petty attempts to shut them up.

  14. #14
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    I'm not christian, so I'm not that big on shame...

    Anyhoo, that doctrine would need a major clarification, or otherwise it would be hijacked by those who wants to silence others, those who are the problem to begin with. Fascist(and I use the term fascist in the widest sense) rethoric states that those who offer differing opinions are trying to silence the fascist opinion - this cannot be allowed. For plenty of examples on this, try gates of vienna.

    A defence against petty attacks cannot be allowed to be turned into a defence against all attacks.



    It's late, so you'll have to excuse me if this isn't formulated as well as it should be. If something isn't perfectly clear then I apologize in advance.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  15. #15

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'm not christian, so I'm not that big on shame...

    Anyhoo, that doctrine would need a major clarification, or otherwise it would be hijacked by those who wants to silence others, those who are the problem to begin with. Fascist(and I use the term fascist in the widest sense) rethoric states that those who offer differing opinions are trying to silence the fascist opinion - this cannot be allowed. For plenty of examples on this, try gates of vienna.

    A defence against petty attacks cannot be allowed to be turned into a defence against all attacks.



    It's late, so you'll have to excuse me if this isn't formulated as well as it should be. If something isn't perfectly clear then I apologize in advance.
    Yes sorry, I'm not objecting to a verbal attack over a petty issue. I'm not sure what the word I'm looking for is, but I can't imagine sitting around listing to rush limbaugh, noting down the companies running ads on his show, and then calling them up to ask them to stop, on account of him calling some fluke lady a slut...vindictively petty maybe?

    Shame is a vital emotion for humans. Some people like to focus just on people who are shamed for stupid reasons, I don't know why they focus like that, but it's misleading. Shame and conscience are practically synonymous.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Secondary Boycotts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    I stuck that bit in because you said it was one of the biggest threats. But look at it: government law frees up corporate money in politics (good decision I think, but that's no matter). Corporation (or union or whatever) buys ads. That's all minimal compared to the fact that the media coverage has a good chance of being poor, that the "experts" they call in come from ideological groups whose answers are completely predictable, and the politics junkies eat it up.
    I agree that we have ourselves a terrible media-citizen relationship going on here. But this is all due to individual failings on the country wide scale. I hate the money in politics buying elections through mass ad campaigns not because I hate seeing the ads or because that the ads are deceptive, but because people are dumb enough to buy into them.

    CNN only does what it does for viewers.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO