HRE in high

[Gilrandir]

Yo, brothers in arms, where are you? Nobody writes to the colonel as Gabriel Garcia Marquez put it once. I'm not a colonel, but I have the same feeling visiting the Forum.
So, I decided to solicit for an advice and stir up this sleepy hollow at the same time.
Next campaign I have in mind is HRE in high (expert, of course). My initial plan is to tech up Switzerland to get exclusively Swiss units and crush Italians asap not to let them produce too much Italian infantry. Then I'll watch the English-French bickerings and, choosing a propitious moment, interfere with a maximum profit. No "Drang nach Osten" for me - let the Slavic factions bear the brunt of the Horde's fury.
Any tips or corrections of my designs?

[daigaku]

Hi @Gilrandir,

...pity you don´t start in early - you could get those fine Swabian Swordsmen, but only available in early....

for those ItalianInf I mainly used Archers and Crossbows - no need to end on the tip of their weapons.

Head North, get Pomerania, Denmark, Sweden and Norway for the riches of trade (and iron in Sweden) - as HRE you´ll need every Florin you can get for teching up.

I´d choose the English to pick at - if you get the islands there is chance for naval domination. Teched up, the french shouldn´t be a problem after that.

Never having started in "High" I don´t know if the slavs will be able to break the Horde´s onslaught - having started in "Early", they never were.

I wish you happy fighting along,

greetings daigaku

[drone]

I love the Swiss units, so taking Switzerland is always good. My personal preference would be to secure the northern border first by taking out the Danes, you will just need to do it in a way that avoids the excomm. When the Horde drops, you should be able to pick up the shattered pieces of some eastern factions. Try to shorten your borders.

[Gilrandir]

...pity you donґt start in early - you could get those fine Swabian Swordsmen, but only available in early....

When I start in early I usually lose interest in the game (through my almost complete domination) around 1330-1350. To keep the pot of interest boiling longer I prefer to start in high. Besides, some factions are more challenging in high - the Eastern ones (Turks, Russians, Poland as they are under the imminent threat of the Horde), the Byz (because of the crippled initial position), the French (you have both to look after European affairs and keep a grip on the Outremer provinces which are constantly attacked by the muslim factions). Try one of them and you may find some headache to last you quite a time.

Never having started in "High" I donґt know if the slavs will be able to break the Hordeґs onslaught - having started in "Early", they never were.

Usually, they aren't. But the Horde has to man the provinces it conquers, so by the time the nomads get as far west as Poland, Volynia, Moldova (sometimes Carpathia) their attacking impetus is normally spent and they can't throw in all of their forces in one concerted offensive. Then one can handle them more easily.

[daigaku]

Hi @Gilrandir,

loosing interest happens to me sometimes, too - if everything I wanted is built, my income roaring, my armies on the highest available level, the fleet controls all sea regions and no strong enemy is left (this can happen about the time you lose interest, so 1350-1380). But sometimes I am controlling myself, as Danish only taking Lithuania/Livonia, Ireland and maybe the "english" island as well. I get sometimes empires owning 3/4th of the map and then going for me - and at this moment boredom is far away, the last Huscarles are mobilized with all the others to save my small Kingdom, fighting it out with odds from 1:3 up to 1:10. It can take some time to show those guys that "small" doesn´t mean "weak" - and, lo and behold, it´s 1453 - game over ;-))

The Horde: I know, they often behave completely stupid - never saw them using their horrendous numbers (they use to pop up with 20.000-30.000 men in my games) the way they´d get the most out of it - but sitting around in Khazar with 10.000men, not doing anything, attacking Kiev with a mere 2.500 men getting slaughtered.....don´t know why...on the other side, I saw them coming as far as Swabia/Franconia, all the east conquered till down Croatia, half the map their colour, and only the combined efforts of all remaining factions were able to stop them! That´s what I love with M:TW - there´s a probability of what will happen but there are SURPRISES!!!

Happy greetings daigaku

ps sorry for late reply......

pps how far are you with your campaign?!?

[Gilrandir]

The Horde: I know, they often behave completely stupid - never saw them using their horrendous numbers (they use to pop up with 20.000-30.000 men in my games) the way theyґd get the most out of it - but sitting around in Khazar with 10.000men, not doing anything, attacking Kiev with a mere 2.500 men getting slaughtered.....donґt know why...on the other side, I saw them coming as far as Swabia/Franconia, all the east conquered till down Croatia, half the map their colour, and only the combined efforts of all remaining factions were able to stop them! Thatґs what I love with M:TW - thereґs a probability of what will happen but there are SURPRISES!!!

Greetings, daigaku!
Unfortunately (or fortunately - depends on which you prefer), the Horde in my game is always quite predictable. They appear in Khazar and Volgo-Bulgaria with 10-12 full stacks and invariably attack the Russians both westward and northward. Then they (with a part of their full strenth since some of them garrison the conquered provinces) either move on to polish the Polish, forgive my pun; or go south to deal with whoever holds Georgia, Armenia, and Trebizond. Being aware of this pattern you can plan your actions correspondingly (in my game).

pps how far are you with your campaign?!?

My campaign is still a wishful thinking. Don't want to start it until this Euro-2012 thing is over - will not be able to concentrate on the game having 2 football matches to watch daily.

[daigaku]

Hi @Gilrandir,

They appear in Khazar and Volgo-Bulgaria with 10-12 full stacks and invariably attack the Russians both westward and northward. Then they (with a part of their full strenth since some of them garrison the conquered provinces) either move on to polish the Polish, forgive my pun; or go south to deal with whoever holds Georgia, Armenia, and Trebizond. Being aware of this pattern you can plan your actions correspondingly (in my game).

Wow - only that few? On expert level? I must make a mistake playing only on hard (no stupid jokes from AI, and no ridiculous +5morale for every AI-unit), those guys turn up with about 20-35 stacks, sometimes taking Georgia or, more often, Armenia as well as Khazar and Volga-Bulgaria. Naturally they go for the Russians, but in my games as well for the Byz/Turks depending on who has got the Black Sea Region (Trebizond, Rum, sometimes even Syria, Edessa, Lesser Armenia).
With 12 stacks, sure they will be exhausted taking all Novgorod from Moscow to Kiev to Georgia. Other story with more than 25 stacks - and for this situation my description was meant....

Euro-2012 thing?!? Never heard of that. Or do you mean this event where every day on TV there are exposed 22 cr€tlns chasing some rubber whilst two trying to catch it?!? Never understood the hype about that, sorry ;-))

Happily playing along greetings from

daigaku

[Gilrandir]

Euro-2012 thing?!? Never heard of that. Or do you mean this event where every day on TV there are exposed 22 cr€tlns chasing some rubber whilst two trying to catch it?!? Never understood the hype about that, sorry ;-))

Happily playing along greetings from

daigaku

You sound just like my wife. The same attitude she has to MTW, though. I'm afraid she wouldn't bear both, so I'll have to concentrate on football first, and then ... oh, yes ...
As for the Horde, I'm not sure its numbers depend on difficulty level. Btw, drone, do you happen to know how to calculate the horde initial numbers ratio? My game can't serve an example as it is a translated version, so some initial settings may have been changed.

[drone]

Btw, drone, do you happen to know how to calculate the horde initial numbers ratio?

Sorry, I don't know the mechanics of the Horde emergence. I don't believe difficulty level has any effect, there were some theories about the strength of the garrisons present in Khazar/Georgia/V-B in 1230.

You can mod the game to improve the staying power of the Horde, reducing the upkeep for the GH units helps. Not sure how much money they start with on arrival, I assume they start with the usual amount based on difficulty, this could be increased. Using the -ian switch at year 1231 would tell you this value. Another problem is the build requirements for their units, GH Warriors need Bowyer's Guild, GH HAs need Bowyer's Guild and Horse Breeder's Guild, and GH HC need Master Horse Breeder and Master Spearmaker. If the east isn't really built up when they arrive, it is tough for them to replenish their numbers after the initial push.

[daigaku]

Hi,

@Gilrandir: sorry to hear that - at least M:TW makes some sense, she should let you play it to become a better man, mastering life´s difficulties with trained strategies and rude tactics ;-))) I await your tales of honor and glory!!!

@drone: "...there were some theories about the strength of the garrisons present in Khazar/Georgia/V-B in 1230." I´m not sure if that works - tried it in my turkish adventures, they still came in, how their name tells, HORDES. Meanwhile I´ve thought about the possibility that they pop in with an amount of men in relation to all others present on the map - if there are loads of big armies, they come in loads. But haven´t verified yet, in my games there always seems to be a tendency to big armies, even if I try to keep mine as small as possible....

greetings daigaku

[drone]

"...there were some theories about the strength of the garrisons present in Khazar/Georgia/V-B in 1230." I´m not sure if that works - tried it in my turkish adventures, they still came in, how their name tells, HORDES. Meanwhile I´ve thought about the possibility that they pop in with an amount of men in relation to all others present on the map - if there are loads of big armies, they come in loads. But haven´t verified yet, in my games there always seems to be a tendency to big armies, even if I try to keep mine as small as possible....

Back in the day, a lot of players tried stacking loads of troops in those provinces and got big horde numbers, but it may very well have been as you say, a larger force anywhere ups the ante. For the extra challenge, some would tech up those provinces with armouries to get katamongols!

[daigaku]

Hi @drone,

...Katamongols against Kamelsteaks - what a sight!! ;-))

greetings daigaku

[drone]

All this talk has me thinking of playing the Horde, not in Late with an easy mod, but in High as soon as they reappear. Start either with some western faction and maintain, or as an eastern faction and prepare, then switch over to the Horde in 1231 and play from there. It would be interesting to learn the logistical game problems they run into as they expand.

[daigaku]

Hi @drone,

never tried a hotseat-game - might be an experience for it´s own. Got no idea wether the Mongols get a income punishment like the rebels with .conan. or everything works "as usual". Might try that after the completion of my REDUX-project.....

greetings daigaku

[daigaku]

Hey, @Gilrandir,

the strange event with the ball and some men running for it is history. WHERE ARE THE TALES OF MYSTERY AND IMAGINATION ;-)) OF HRE IN HIGH?!?!?

awaiting greetings daigaku

[Gilrandir]

awaiting greetings daigaku

You seem to be awaiting both greetings and stories. Well, greetings to you (so the first reason of your awaiting is over). As for the second (I imagine you looking impatiently at a clock in your hand and those ball-chasing men and saying "when are you guys going to call it a day?"), I have to disappoint you. While ruminating on the future campaign I found myself suddenly attracted by the idea of the Sicilians high expert. A quick sea-borne offensive in the direction of Greece, Const and Bulgaria seem to me more appealing. So I don't know what to do. What is your opinion?

[daigaku]

Hi, @Gilrandir,
sounds like fun as well - tech up some spears and halberds against those ByzCav and go straight for the center, so everything around will fall to your hands. But TELL us, as announced!!! ;-))

not fishing for greetings but for stories daigaku

[LordK9]

Sounds like an old "Yes" song. I don't think I have anything worthy. I'm into the late 1300s and my Danes were just now attacked for the first time (I have a disjointed maritime empire from rebel pickings) so t'would be quite the dull story.

I attacked the Brits early on because they were about to be defeated by the French leaving the french far too powerful. There's still a three way going on between the French, Byzantines, and Spanish - all against each other.

[Gilrandir]

But TELL us, as announced!!! ;-))

not fishing for greetings but for stories daigaku

I will as soon as there is anything to tell.

[Gilrandir]

Finally I have something to report. I'm down to 1220. My carefully laid plans (read above in this thread) turned out useless. On the very first year of the campaign my Lorraine was attacked by the French so my propulsion down south was postponed indefinitely. The said province changed hands at least thrice before I managed to put on a sideshow in both Flanders and Ile de France. The first one I lost, the second was successful triggering a civil war among the French. A couple more moves and the French are no more and I'm culling the leftovers of their lands. (It is interesting to note that the Pope was blind and dumb to all I did with the French). Being surrounded by allies (except the Italians) I feel more secure strategically (but keep my eyes open - I don't trust them too much), although my financial state is still precarious. I hope to start some trade from Flanders (I have one ship already) and maybe Saxony. My major plans (and doubts, and fears) concern the Italians. They expanded into Toulouse and Greece and have a considerable navy (not an uncommon thing with them), so I'm not sure I want any trouble with them. Yet.

[drone]

Looks like a good start, it's always fun when the French self-destruct!

[ferdi]

you need a good navy against England and Italy and protect your land.
lokking for new images.

[LordK9]

Easy against Italy and those crappy gallies but rather hard against the English. they'll have cogs in no time. I don't mind the French so much - really like it when the English self destruct.

[Gilrandir]

The Italians started the war - but only naval. Most of my allies fell away. Still after supressing rebels in Champaign I'm mustering my armies to get at Italians hammer and tongs.

[Gilrandir]

It is 1235. I attacked Italians and captured Milan and Genoa. In fact I fought not a single battle against them - they always withdrew the reason being too slim garrisons in all their core provinces. Apparently the Doge got carried away by the image of a ramified empire he might have ruled. But you gotta have some troops along my borders if you start a war against me! Of course, I got excommed but it lasted only a couple of years. Then the Holy See was vacated through the death of the presiding genius and now I'm as faithful as I may be. In the war I received unexpected help from my allies - the Aragonese attacked Italians in Toulouse and the Pope - in Venice and Tuscany. Italians repulsed the Aragonese (lost a battle,were beseiged and then pop goes the loyalist revolt). But the Pope keeps the abovementioned provinces which does not make me happy at all. I had thought of capturing affluent Venice myself (and iron-rich Tuscany as well) and shortening the border. Well, that must wait for some lucky chance.
Drone, if you are interested: the Danish "did something"! They captured Sweden, but completely disregarding Denmark lost it to rebels and the Italians jumped at the opportunity and now their Doge has it as a permanent residence. So for the Danish "doing something" does not seem a good option. I'm not really satisfied with this development as my enemies have one more province to attack me from, but they stay there quiet in the castle after some rebellions and if they advance on Saxony it is going to be across a bridge anyway.
Meanwhile I'm still impecunious and grudge every florin I have to spend on other things then recruiting troops. All my ships (2 of them) were sunk by the Italians and I dare not produce more until I (hopefully) stop the war with them (I'm working on it).
The Pope wants me to and I'm willing to listen to him while I deal with the English. I advanced into Anjou and Brittany and the result of it will be known only in my next post.

[drone]

Drone, if you are interested: the Danish "did something"! They captured Sweden, but completely disregarding Denmark lost it to rebels and the Italians jumped at the opportunity and now their Doge has it as a permanent residence. So for the Danish "doing something" does not seem a good option. I'm not really satisfied with this development as my enemies have one more province to attack me from, but they stay there quiet in the castle after some rebellions and if they advance on Saxony it is going to be across a bridge anyway.

That could work to your advantage. It allows you to take Denmark without alienating your allies, and if the port was destroyed when the Italians came through, you can now capture the Doge for a good cash ransom if you are quick about it.

[LordK9]

Why that hypocritical Pope! Excommunicates you for defending yourself while he attacks them :) (but, that's a different thread). Those naval attacks only hurt, though - often destroys an economy. Sometimes, I just don't know. In my current game, I was at war with the Hungarians for years and didn't even know it. In that same game, the Danes conquered all of Scandinavia, England, Ireland, Spain, and much of western continental Europe (so it can, albeit rarely, happen :)) ). How are the English behaving? No navy left and your troops committed south might make for a tempting event.

[Gilrandir]

Well, Drone, it was a great ransom idea of yours, but unfortunately the port in Denmark wasn't destroyed. And I promised the Pope not to hurt Italians anyway. But I'd like to relate a curious sequence of events.
Year 1. I ploy-attack Italian-held Toulouse and get an excom warning.
Year 2. I advance into the English Anjou and Brittany.
Year 3. The Pope sends me 1000 florins.
Year 4. The Pope excoms Italians.
I can picture a conversation between me and the Pope.
Innocent III (with a scowl): "Don't you touch those poor Italian lads!!!"
Emperor Otto V (grudgingly): "All right. But (eagerly) may I spank the English?
Innocent III (genially): "That's a good Cristia... I mean that's a good boy. Here's something to make your campaign as smooth as might be (hands the Emperor a small but heavy pouch)."
Emperor Otto V: "Fine. But you must promise me I will get at those Italians some day".
Innocent III: "We'll see, we'll see. (reaches for the quill, dips it into ink and starts writing whispering under his breath) My dear Doge... (turning aside to the Emperor) Otto man, how do you spell 'excommunication'?"
But, jokes aside, can you attack an excommed faction after the Pope warned you not to while it still wasn't excommed?
As for the English, LordK9, they behaved themselves. They pretended to put up some resistance but succumbed and instead of focusing on their internal problems launched an anti-Almo crusade! After that I captured Wessex and the crusade dissolved but the English have a sizeable army in Navarra now.
I'm inclined to get a truce with the Italians and start producing ships keeping the English at bay beyond the Thames.

[LordK9]

RE: can you attack an excommed faction after the Pope warned you not to while it still wasn't excommed?

Good question; I could see an overlooked conflict here.

RE: Year 3. The Pope sends me 1000 florins.

Has anyone ever determined what causes said Popes to give money? I used to think it was for ending heresies but it seems, well, random.

[Brandy Blue]

Has anyone ever determined what causes said Popes to give money? I used to think it was for ending heresies but it seems, well, random.

I think he tends to be more generous early in a campaign (before he has run out of money?) and I don't think I've ever seen him give money to a non-Catholic or excommunicated faction. Other than that, I don't know.