lol at arab spring, again

[HoreTore]

Suit yourself mia muca

You're not even going to bring out the Strasbourg agreement(or whatever it was called) again?

I am disappoint.

[Fragony]

You're not even going to bring out the Strasbourg agreement(or whatever it was called) again?

I am disappoint.

You will find it in the book, don't look like me like that.

[HoreTore]

I have some stuff you should read, man.

[Fragony]

I have some stuff you should read, man.

How can you say I am wrong when you can acces that, isn't is just as I say it is

[HoreTore]

How can you say I am wrong when you can acces that, isn't is just as I say it is

I lol again.

These are completely standard documents for groups working with furthering relationships between countries. You'll find the same documents for the Dutch-Brazilian relationship that you find for the Dutch-Arab relationship.

The reason you think one is sinister while the other is not(the lack of a Eurobrazil theory), is because of islamophobia.

[Fragony]

I will be waiting much better imho

[Fragony]

When will you leftists get it that you simply don't get it? Tunesian anti-islamist opposition-leader was just assasinated, Tunesia was what Libanon once was. Egyptian president calls jew apes and pigs, in Libia there is ethnic cleansing of blacks.

[Sir Moody]

trust me we get that radical Islam is a problem - we just don't think the non radicals are

[Fragony]

trust me we get that radical Islam is a problem - we just don't think the non radicals are

So do we. We are just not screwing them over with a misguided need to respect the radicals. The left was so sure, this is teh arab spring! But that predictably turned out to be wishthinking. It's an islamist winter and everybody should have seen that comming.

Don't meddle with things you don't understand, and especially not here

[Hax]

Fragony, you don't know anything about Lebanon or Tunisia. Stop pretending that you do.

Two different countries, completely different situation.

[Fragony]

Fragony, you don't know anything about Lebanon or Tunisia. Stop pretending that you do.

Two different countries, completely different situation.

An ex of mine is from Tunesia and I inspected every inch of her. I know that it are completily different countries, but like Libanon it is a really forward nation sliding down from it's prospects to belong in a world of modernity. Stop assuming I don't know anything about it I'd say. Because I actually do.

[Idaho]

So finally we discover why frag hates Muslims! Did she break your heart?

[Gelatinous Cube]

Arab women are hot. The fact that they are forced to cover that hotness is the real crime.

[Hax]

You mean Tunisia and Lebanon right? Yes, the fact that your ex-girlfriend is from Tunisia clearly means that you know how the country works. Very good. My ex-girlfriend is from Venlo, so I guess I can say everything about Limburg now. Catch my drift? Anecdotal evidence reigns supreme.

Your so-called "knowledge" of these two states is based on the false assumption that they somehow want to slide towards an ill-defined "western-style" modernity, and I should probably put quotation marks between the last term as well.

For your information, Lebanon was created from the French Mandate in Syria, and one of the goals of creating this Lebanese state was to enable the Maronite Christians to form a state in which they formed a majority. However, as time progressed, the Maronite majority (which had already been ever so slight) began to shift towards a minority in a largely Sunni state. Imagine also a mix of Shi‘ites and Druze thrown in there.

Democratic institutions in Lebanon were more or less founded along the lines of local crime bosses, who managed to extend their spheres of influence through the process of democratisation. However, as these crime bosses were more or less only interested in their own wealth (and that of their inner circles) there wasn't any real co-operation in the government, finally resulting to major clashes between the different religious groups. Throw Syria in there and you kind of stand where we are today: no real progression as parliament is fractured into many different groups all serving their own purposes.

Whereas Tunisia is a completely different country. Relatively homogenous population of mostly (self-described) Arabs, virtually all Sunni Muslims with a tiny Jewish minority group. Tunisia, having been a protectorate of the same France did not really gain any meaningful independence until the mid-fifties, after which it was ruled by two different leaders: Bourguiba and Ben Ali, who pretty much ruled through use of the police force for over sixty years.


You want to compare these two countries? Seriously? Sorta like comparing Russia and Canada (but they're both cold!) or Mexico and the Netherlands (they both have drugs!). I'm sorry, but it's a silly comparison and I think you should know that.

[HopAlongBunny]

Democratic institutions...were more or less founded along the lines of local crime bosses...

History of the world Pt 1.

[Gelatinous Cube]

History of the world Pt 1.

Zing! Humankind 0 - HopAlongBunny 1

[Fragony]

So finally we discover why frag hates Muslims! Did she break your heart?

What makes you think I hate muslims, I just dispise Islam

[Idaho]

What makes you think I hate muslims, I just dispise Islam

Islam, like all religions, goes through bad patches. The current bad patch is very much due to the compliance of western states in suppressing viable political groups in Arabia. The only politics allowed by western backed dictators was politicised Islam.

Go and look at photos of nassar and sadat era Egypt. Hardly any political Islam or veils being worn. And that's without starting on the whole cia Afghanistan mujahadeen.

[Fragony]

Islam, like all religions, goes through bad patches. The current bad patch is very much due to the compliance of western states in suppressing viable political groups in Arabia. The only politics allowed by western backed dictators was politicised Islam.

Go and look at photos of nassar and sadat era Egypt. Hardly any political Islam or veils being worn. And that's without starting on the whole cia Afghanistan mujahadeen.

I am not that stupid Idaho, a muslim is for me simply someone who comes from an islamic country. I have no issues with them.

[Hax]

Like Coptic Christians from Egypt!

Wait no, makes no sense.

[Fragony]

Muslims welcome, islamists not, makes perfect sense to me. Most rightwingers wouldn't have a problem with muslims if leftist weren't islamphiles. the leftist church worships multiculture and will claw out your eyes when proven dead wrong.

Edit: lol@arab spring. Muslim cleric claims women who protest on the Tahier-square insist to be raped. 10% are widows who have nobody to control her apparently. You just got to respect that, it just screams for intercultural dialogue we can really learn from eachother.

And you guys wonder why I dispise the islam, gimme a break

Islamapoligists should watch 'la femme de rue', life of a woman in an area that has been enriched with people who have culture

[Sarmatian]

So do we. We are just not screwing them over with a misguided need to respect the radicals. The left was so sure, this is teh arab spring! But that predictably turned out to be wishthinking. It's an islamist winter and everybody should have seen that comming.

Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

[HoreTore]

Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

Bah, you Stalin-lover.

Democracy is the most conflict-reducing institution humanity has discovered so far. Any dictatorship, secular or religious or whatever, will end in bloodshed.

[Strike For The South]

Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

Right I remember when Eastern Europe skyrocketed to the top of human development under Moscow's thumb

and by "top" I mean alcoholism, autocracy, and crippling xenophobia.

Do you think they'll still honor my pop's 2 for 1 coupon on Soviet brides?

[Montmorency]

Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work.

Yet that only came into being in America after WW2.

It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

More like a pig, a goose, and a mule. Or maybe the metaphor is escaping me - what were we on about?

Note that pigs are omnivorous.

[Brenus]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

[Fragony]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

Not completily unfair

[HoreTore]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

I always see the Spanish civil war as a model to how revolutions play out.

The republicans started out as a very diverse group, containing everything from conservatives to anarchists. Because they were painted as stalinists, however, the rest of the world did not help them. Thus, the only supporter left was Stalin. The extremely tiny stalinist fraction grew to dominate the republican side, because they were the ones who generated outside help.

I think we've seen the same thing happening in the middle east. We've painted a certain picture on the opposition, and are reluctant to help. The only ones who recieve support are islamists, and they have thus come to dominate the opposition.

Spain ended up with 40 years of Franco after the dictator fell. The arab world may go down the same road.

When moderate republicans talked about land reform, the west interpreted it as Stalinism. When moderate arab forces talk about Islam, we interpret it as islamism.

[Hax]

Brennus is actually pretty close to what it's about. Sort of.

Of course, we can't blame the vague "West" for all that is wrong with Arab countries. We have to acknowledge, however, that these regimes were supported, sort of, by most states throughout the world and received millions of dollars (if not more) in aid from the United States. Israel comes in here as well.

To put it plainly, and I've said this before, the fact that the majority of the opposition against these regimes was directed through mosques is not a coincidence. Cf. Iran (post-53), Egypt (post 56), Algeria (80's/early 90's). What the regimes in these countries did was to remove all viable methods of opposition except the one through religion. Not because they particularly liked (or feared) Islamism, but because there is no easy way to actually shut down a mosque or a religious school, wheras you could easily shut down a party's headquarters. This basically funneled most forms of domestic opposition through the religious institutions.

[HopAlongBunny]

Ok, so the "West"'s problems are largely the outgrowth of their intelligence and policy choices. The realization "we did it to ourselves" does not suggest an obvious way forward.