Meat egypt's newest president

[HoreTore]

Maybe you are right I hardly read these, I am not really interested it's always the same stuff.

It's not nonsense by the Human Rights Watch has given South Africa the rating of six on the genocide scale, that is what Rwanda had before the killings. It doesn't look very good. Although I have to say they brought it back to five recently.

Edit, checked it, you are correct

No, this is what the human rights watch says about South Africa. Most of the concerns are about the rights of labourers, particularly migrant workers, as well as some freedom of speech and lbgt and womens rights issues.

Whilst these are some examples of legitimate concerns about the protection of human rights in South Africa, South Africa’s human rights institutions, such as the Human Rights Commission have the potential to positively advance human rights protection.

This is how the human rights watch sums it up. Quite a far cray from "minutes away from Rwanda".

And of course, the human rights watch doesn't operate a "genocide scale".

[HoreTore]

And just for the heck of it, here's Amnesty's report.

Same thing there. Concerns about refugees, lbgt and HIV. They also note excessive use of force against demonstrators though.

Black demonstrators.

[Fragony]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks do note that this isn't without controversy, the ethnic part is indeed controversial

[HoreTore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks do note that this isn't without controversy.

Screw Amnesty amd HRW, someones got a wiki article!!

Come on, you can do better than that.

When it comes to human rights, I trust Amnesty and HRW above all others. If anything, they are more critical than they should be, not less. The thought of them underreporting an issue is absurd in the extreme.

[Fragony]

Screw Amnesty amd HRW, someones got a wiki article!!

Come on, you can do better than that.

When it comes to human rights, I trust Amnesty and HRW above all others. If anything, they are more critical than they should be, not less. The thought of them underreporting an issue is absurd in the extreme.

Isn't it

[Hax]

Meanwhile, in Egypt..

Egypt's president asserts authority over army
Defence Minister Tantawi and army Chief of Staff Anan replaced and military-issued constitutional amendments cancelled.


The Egyptian president has ordered the powerful head of the army and defence minister, Field Marshal Hussein Mohamed Tantawi, into retirement and cancelled constitutional amendments issued by the military restricting presidential powers.


Mohamed Morsi announced through a spokesman on Sunday the dismissal of Tantawi and his appointment as a presidential adviser.
According to state television, Abdul-Fatah al-Sessi would replace Tantawi as defence minister and the general commander of the army.


Morsi also sent into retirement the chief of army staff, General Sami Anan, and appointed him as a presidential adviser.
Lieutenant-General Sidki Sayed Ahmed was named as Anan's replacement.

Morsi further appointed a senior judge, Mahmoud Mekki, as vice-president. All decisions are effective immediately.
Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh, reporting from Cairo, said that would be no exaggeration to say that no one saw this one coming.


"After the June 5 attack on a border patrol left 16 soldiers dead, the country’s leadership - both civilian and in uniform - was peculiarly quiet," she said.
"Late and terse statements did not quench the public’s thirst for answers.


"But no one thought the price would extend to the head of the military and his deputy.
"After all, both Tantawi and Enan, the two most powerful members of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF), long appeared invincible - both during the period SCAF took control over the country and even after President Morsi’s election in June."
The latest moves are seen as escalating the power struggle between Morsi, who took office on June 30, and the military.


In an address to the nation on Sunday evening, Mohammed Morsi said that the decision was not directed at individuals.


"The decisions I took today were not meant ever to target certain persons, nor did I intend to embarrass institutions, nor was my aim to narrow freedoms," Morsi said.

So in one way, I'd say this is good. I don't trust Tantawi and his lackeys for one bit, so any movement aiming to decrease their powers is definitely good, in my opinion. On the other hand, if the balance tips too far in the favour of the Freedom and Justice party, who knows what will happen.

To be fair, I think Morsi is a pretty relaxed guy; I don't see him banning alcohol or closing churches tomorrow. Still, there are some crazy people around. Oh well, let's see what'll happen.

[rvg]

To be fair, I think Morsi is a pretty relaxed guy; I don't see him banning alcohol or closing churches tomorrow.

No, not tomorrow.

[Hax]

But you do know who was appointed as vice-president, right?

[rvg]

But you do know who was appointed as vice-president, right?

Yeah, what of it?

[Hax]

Stuff like that just make me reconsider the possibilities. For example, I don't really see Egypt turning into a sharia state overnight.

[rvg]

Stuff like that just make me reconsider the possibilities. For example, I don't really see Egypt turning into a sharia state overnight.

I certainly hope that Egypt becomes a secular republic. Everyone wins in that scenario. Except for the salafists.

[rvg]

And so it begins...

[Fragony]

amazing who expects that

Only people who read quality media furiously scream it's an arab spring. People who are informed know better than that.

[HoreTore]

A new democracy-in-the-makings attempt to disrupt the propaganda machine of the previous dictator?

This has never happened before.

[Fragony]

Sure, but there were less cheerleaders slipping of their chairs with delight. Most of the time they knew there will be blood.

[HoreTore]

Sure, but there were less cheerleaders slipping of their chairs with delight. Most of the time they knew there will be blood.

Most of theworld were rather happy with the fall of the communiet bloc, apartheid, the latin dictators, etc... While I would love to see every revolutionary leader behave like a Mandela or a Havel, we all know that's a utopia. Still,the only way to turn from dictatorship to democracy is through a revolution, like the one in egypt. If it turns into a new dictatorship, a new revolution will be needed. It ain't harder.

What made people so excited by the arab spring, fragony, is that is was a massive, widespread popular uprising against the dictatorships of the arab nationalist wave. It's scale and timing makes it as important as the french revolution; after 1789, all european kings knew that the public could cut their heads off. After 2011, all arab leaders know that their population can do the same. That is the importance of both the french revolution and the arab spring.

France turned to The Terror, but that does not diminish the importance of 1789 in any way.

[rvg]

France turned to The Terror, but that does not diminish the importance of 1789 in any way.

True, but there's no reason to step on the same rake as France did back then.

[Fragony]

What made people so excited by the arab spring, fragony, is that is was a massive, widespread popular uprising against the dictatorships of the arab nationalist wave.

It's about jobs you silly, the so-called Arabian spring is a quality-media invention that is as close to reality as me having Charice Theron in my bed right know

[Xiahou]

To be fair, I think Morsi is a pretty relaxed guy; I don't see him banning alcohol or closing churches tomorrow.

And no one saw him dismissing Tantawi before Sunday... funny that.

A new democracy-in-the-makings attempt to disrupt the propaganda machine of the previous dictator?

This has never happened before.

Hey, that's some pretty nice spinning there. You should see if they need a spokesperson.

"Some commentators in Egypt say that Mr Mursi and the Brotherhood are now resorting to tactics employed to great effect by Mubarak and his party to gain influence over media policy, the BBC's Muhammad Sukri says."

Sounds great, right? Move along, nothing to see here.

[HoreTore]

It's about jobs you silly, the so-called Arabian spring is a quality-media invention that is as close to reality as me having Charice Theron in my bed right know

Name one revolution not rooted in economic dissatisfaction. I challenge thee!

People generally do not revolt because they're being abused, people seem to adopt to almost any living situation and manage. When faced with a sharp decline in living standards, however, people get pissed. When people get pissed, they seem to remember all the abuse they've taken from their dictators, and the end result is a revolution. Of course, it can happen the other way too, like with Germany after the crisis in 1929...

As they say, "it's about the economy, stupid!"

[Fragony]

Name one revolution not rooted in economic dissatisfaction. I challenge thee!

Well that is of course going to be incredibly hard. Point is is that the cheerleaders are wrong as usual, they like to have to have their point proven despite reality pointing the other way. I don't think the people cheering this on give a crap about their fellow humans as they would be a little bit more sceptical about this 'arab spring' nonsense if they did, they feed on the world to satisfy their worldview because it makes them feel good about themself. Call me cynical I don't mind

[HoreTore]

Well that is of course going to be incredibly hard. Point is is that the cheerleaders are wrong as usual, they like to have to have their point proven despite reality pointing the other way. I don't think the people cheering this on give a crap about their fellow humans as they would be a little bit more sceptical about this 'arab spring' nonsense if they did, they feed on the world to satisfy their worldview because it makes them feel good about themself. Call me cynical I don't mind

Could you by any chance show me one of these "cheerleaders"? I'll be very interested in seeing an academic who is not aware that a revolution can produce ugly results.

It seems more likely that you're wearing your ideological glasses again, frags, and seeing only what you want to see.

[rvg]

Could you by any chance show me one of these "cheerleaders"? I'll be very interested in seeing an academic who is not aware that a revolution can produce ugly results.

I think Frags' point is that the Arab Spring is already producing ugly results and people still refuse to see them.

It seems more likely that you're wearing your ideological glasses again, frags, and seeing only what you want to see.

Doesn't look that way at all.


Islamists clearly have no sense of humor...

[Hax]

People who are informed know better than that.

I doubt anyone would call you informed, Frags, on this subject. It's good to see that you're trying to look at other sources for your news, it's just that they're all wrong.

I think Frags' point is that the Arab Spring is already producing ugly results and people still refuse to see them.

I try to avoid using the term "Arab Spring". I don't think it fully covers the different uprisings all over the Arab world and severely understates the impact and goals of these revolutions.

Additionally, I'd like to say that no revolution goes without bloodshed and periods of anarchy. It's important to remember that the Islamist movements were able to gain such massive victories because of their political experience and social work they've been doing for over fifty years. In that respect, whereas the position of the opposition was easy to maintain, because every time the government failed, they could pin it on them not being Islamic enough, be it from a lack of creating jobs, the political situation with Israel or widespread corruption within the government itself.

I think that in a few years, most people will have realised (including Islamists themselves) that you can't slap Islam on everything to make it better. As a matter of fact, we've already seen some severe internal divisions over the last couple of months since the ousting of Mubarak.

Finally, I googled some of the news surrounding the court case against Adel Imam. Apparently, an appeals court upheld the original sentence, but the charges were dropped by another three days later. I've not really been able to find anything else, but I might try the Arabic written press sometime later. The thing with current news from the Middle-East, be it about talks about necrophilia in the Egyptian parliament, al-Qaeda threating women with acid in Kashmir or Quwaiti shaykhs supposedly calling for the desctruction of pyramids. I'd say that just about any news coming from the Middle-East right now should be treated with utmost care and double-checked.

[Fragony]

'I doubt anyone would call you informed, Frags, on this subject. It's good to see that you're trying to look at other sources for your news, it's just that they're all wrong.'

It is normal that people know, for a fact, that I am wrong. A shame for them I am proven right ohhh so many times regardless. Can't you just buy yourself a teddybear in case you absolutely have the need to hug something it happens to us all.

[rvg]

[/COLOR]I doubt anyone would call you informed, Frags, on this subject. It's good to see that you're trying to look at other sources for your news, it's just that they're all wrong.

Can you be more specific?

I think that in a few years, most people will have realised (including Islamists themselves) that you can't slap Islam on everything to make it better. As a matter of fact, we've already seen some severe internal divisions over the last couple of months since the ousting of Mubarak.

In a few years it might be too late though, as the Emir Mursi will be firmly entrenched on his throne. Besides, what are the Copts supposed to do in the meantime?

[Fragony]

Oh don't mention it, people who read quality media don't know about the church-burnings, they know, for a fact, that it's all good tidings

[Hax]

It is normal that people know, for a fact, that I am wrong. A shame for them I am proven right ohhh so many times regardless. Can't you just buy yourself a teddybear in case you absolutely have the need to hug something it happens to us all.

There's nothing bad about being wrong, you know. It's just that in that case, people should be more careful in throwing their opinions around, especially in these cases. Also a cute attempt at, what was that, something of an insult? I don't know.

Can you be more specific?

There are quite some links in the bottom part of my posts that deals exactly with the kind of misinformation that appears to have increased in numbers after the Arab revolutions.

In a few years it might be too late though, as the Emir Mursi will be firmly entrenched on his throne. Besides, what are the Copts supposed to do in the meantime?

Cute Jihad-watchy kinda gimmick, flinging Arabic terms like "emir" or "ayatollah" around, but they serve little purpose apart from leading people to think that there's actually an important difference between the two. Quoting Hans Wehr, Dictionary of Modern Standard Arabic, Third Edition:

امير pl. امراء commander; prince, emir; title of princes of a ruling house; tribal chief

Which would hardly befit a true Islamic ruler. How about amir al-muminîn or khalîfä?

In any case, to get back on the subject; I think the idea that the Mubarak-era regime was more friendly towards the Coptic minority is actually quite disingenous. When you Google "Mubarak and the Copts", hits usually turn out results such as: Copts fear future without Mubarak, Mubarak blames foreign hands for Coptic Church blast and Coptic Christians fear life without Mubarak, which give the idea that Mubarak's regime was the only thing standing in the way between the Coptic community and a crazed horde of Islamists eager to attack Christians.

However, when looking into the matter somewhat more in-depth, things such as this Ahram article (a paper closely linked to the state, I might add) which says: "The crime in Imbaba where two churches were burnt is a natural outcome of the bitter crop harvested since the seeds of sectarianism were planted in Egyptian soil by the Sadat regime in 1970. The Mubarak regime, in its dying days, on purpose let criminals escape to prepare for their next crime. Under that regime, a structured plan was in place to ensure that perpetrators of sectarian crimes were not penalised."

And then continues from there on out.

Furthermore, Guardian writer Amira Nowaira notes in her May 2011 article that "[...]the Coptic population were led to believe that without the protection of the regime they were at the mercy of a predatory population bent on destroying them".

Finally, al-Sharq al-Awsat (meaning, "The Middle East" in Arabic) noted in an interview with protestant intellectual Rafik Habib that he thinks that "the relationship between the church and the state has embarrassed the church and harmed the Copts.I think that the relationship between the church and the state has embarrassed the church and harmed the Copts".

In the light of these articles, it's extraordinarily hard to keep up the idea that the Mubarak and Sadat regimes were somehow more friendly towards, or protected the Coptic community.

As a final sidenote, I would like to say that it pretty much depends on the route Morsi is going to take. When you take a look at Islamic modernist movements nowadays, in particular the Muslim Brotherhood, you'll find that many concepts that we accept as being legitimately "western" are being explained in Islamic terms within these movements. I really wonder if that's something bad, per se. It might not be such a bad place to start.

[rvg]

There are quite some links in the bottom part of my posts that deals exactly with the kind of misinformation that appears to have increased in numbers after the Arab revolutions.

Can you provide a link that Fragony referred to along with a credible refutation of that link? So far you've shown no evidence of him being wrong. None at all.

Cute Jihad-watchy kinda gimmick, flinging Arabic terms like "emir" or "ayatollah" around, but they serve little purpose apart from leading people to think that there's actually an important difference between the two. Quoting Hans Wehr, Dictionary of Modern Standard Arabic, Third Edition:
Which would hardly befit a true Islamic ruler. How about amir al-muminîn or khalîfä?

What is your point exactly?

In the light of these articles, it's extraordinarily hard to keep up the idea that the Mubarak and Sadat regimes were somehow more friendly towards, or protected the Coptic community.

No, they were merely the lesser evil. Don't need to look far for an example of how islamists treat Christians. Just take a peek at Gaza.

As a final sidenote, I would like to say that it pretty much depends on the route Morsi is going to take. When you take a look at Islamic modernist movements nowadays, in particular the Muslim Brotherhood, you'll find that many concepts that we accept as being legitimately "western" are being explained in Islamic terms within these movements. I really wonder if that's something bad, per se. It might not be such a bad place to start.

I don't really care how they explain concepts. All I really want to see is tolerance in action. Like maybe, not persecuting Christians, not burning churches. That would be really nice. What they interpret and how, is their business.

[HoreTore]

I think Frags' point is that the Arab Spring is already producing ugly results and people still refuse to see them.

No, sorry, that doesn't cut it. Who refuses to see the uglier side of revolution? Names and proofs are needed. I have yet to see a single name, nor have I seen any such person myself, and so I have to conclude that the two of you are inventing an imaginary foe.

As for attacks on Copts... The muslim brotherhood allied with the copts back in the mubarak days, after the latter started attacking the copts. The muslim brotherhood actually has quite a few coptic christians in their organization, and not just foot soldiers. The ones who are attacking the copts are the salafist party supporters(whose name escapes me atm) and quite possibly mubarak supporters. Yeah, that's right - there are different kinds of islamist movements, and egypt has at least two groups who fit the label.