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Thread: Black Egyptians

  1. #61
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I'm very busy, and haven't had time to check this thread or do a lot of reading.

    However, the point about the mod's accuracy is important. By 272 BS the Ptolemies, decendents of one of Alexander's Macedonian generals were the rulers of what we now call "Egypt". Central to the wars of the Sucessor Kingdoms were their claims to "Greekness" as well as "Macedonianness". Ptolemy's armies were, like his rivals, composed primarily of troops of Greek and Macedonian origin, with a healthy smattering of Thracians and Celts who acted as irregulars or other mercenary roles. The point is, Ptolemy was not remotely African and his descendants would have sought to maintain their Greekness, not dilute it, and by and large so would his soldiers.
    I'm well aware of this part: I've read about the incest among the Ptolemioi. I wasn't even talking about that.

    So, while the debate about who "the Egyptians" were may be important it has little direct impact on how we depict the Macedonian units available to Egypt in EBII, if at all.
    that I know: as I said to Unbreakable, his hypothesis would only apply as late as the New Kingdom.
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  2. #62
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    Basically! As for the Egyptians essentially coming from Nubia, well that appears to now be the consensus amongst mainstream academics. Here is a link to the new publication by the Fitzwilliam, Oxford, and Yale academics who are now finally on board with acknowledging that ancient Egypt was originally black...
    You mean this BAR Proceedings?

    This volume forms the proceedings of the conference, Egypt in its African Context, which took place at The Manchester Museum, University of Manchester, UK, on the 3-4 October 2009. The conference at Manchester had a number of aims: to address perceptions of Ancient Egypt in the West, in scholarly writing and public understanding; to present a scholarly approach to the subject of Egypt in Africa in order to counterbalance the extreme Afrocentric views within which such a debate is often contextualised; to investigate how community groups and professional Egyptologists can transfer their knowledge and points of view; and to present the work of scholars working on African-centred Egyptology to a wider audience including the traditional academic Egyptological community. Contents: Introduction: Egypt in its African Context (C. A. Folorunso and Stephen Quirke); 1) The Strategic Importance of Kemet (Kimani S. K. Nehusi); 2) The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa: A View from the Archaeological Record (Maria Carmelo Gatto); 3) The Predynastic Bos primigenius as a Royal Image of Territory, Boundaries and Power in an African Context (Ana I. Navajas Jimenez); 4) Some Notes about an Early African Pool of Cultures from which Emerged the Egyptian Civilisation (Alain Anselin); 5) Egypt in Afrika and Afrika in Egypt: The Example of Libation (Kimani S. K. Nehusi); 6) Meroitic Worship of Isis at Philae (Solange Bumbaugh); 7) Critical Comments on Essays on Interpreting Ancient Egypt presented at the Egypt in its African Context Conference (Charles A. Grantham); 8) Contesting Egypt: Facts, Rhetoric or Sentiment? (C. A. Folorunso); 9) West African Perspectives on Ancient Egypt: African Renaissance (Jose Lingna-Nafafe); 10) Petrie's Revolutions: The Case of the Qurneh Queen (Bill Manley); 11) Public Understandings of Ancient Egypt in the Formation of Dalit and Afro-American Identities and History Curriculum (Clyde Ahmad Winters); 12) Curating Kemet, Fear of a Black Land? (Sally-Ann Ashton).
    I'm reading some of the papers, what I am seeing thus far is precisely a rejection of a totalising "Black Egypt".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  3. #63

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    You mean this BAR Proceedings?



    I'm reading some of the papers, what I am seeing thus far is precisely a rejection of a totalising "Black Egypt".
    It states no where that academia is rejecting the notion that ancient Egypt was black, and that is apparent by the actual videos of those scholars lectures themselves. What is being done with this publication is the presentation of the fact of Egypt being black in a more scholarly acceptable way, than that that was attempted by some earlier "Afrocentric" scholars. I don't understand why you having such a hard time accepting this fact, I really don't.
    Last edited by The Unbreakable; 07-09-2012 at 02:04.

  4. #64
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Looks to me like there are people who are very determined to prove the Afro-centric view and this report is trying to balance things out and look at the facts evenly.
    I think you are only seeing what you want to see here The Unbreakable.
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  5. #65
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    It states no where that academia is rejecting the notion that ancient Egypt was black, and that is apparent by the actual videos of those scholars lectures themselves. What is being done with this publication is the presentation of the fact of Egypt being black in a more scholarly acceptable way, than that that was attempted by some earlier "Afrocentric" scholars. I don't understand why you having such a hard time accepting this fact, I really don't.
    S.O.Y. Keita rejects that notion, from the clip you linked. He specifically said that they had tropically adapted limbs and they were "dark", but he refused to describe them as "Negro" or "African".

    I, frankly, don't give one fig about the videos of them lecturing - the BAR report presents their worked-up lectures as they should be recieved. Having read a couple of the papers, the thing I was struck by was the refusal to simply equate Egypt with Nubia, or anywhere else. If you read the paper on Nubian pastoralism, one of the first things the author makes clear is that you cannot infer skin colour from cultural grouping or interaction. She also made the point that from the beggining of the dynastic period there is a fairly hard break between Egyptian and Nubian cultures, going in both directions,

    Now, lety me state this again for you - because you clearly have trouble taking the point - I have no problem with a "Nubian" or "Sub-Saharan" element in Egypt, but that does not make Egypt "Black". As has already been demonstrated to you, the genetic studies you linked to indicate an African affinity, but not necessarily a skin-tone or appearence which we associate with Sub-Saharans.

    Look, as far as I can see you must have registerd here pretty much just to have this argument. I am nowhere near as interested in this debate about skin colour as you, but the simply fact is that you have failed to produce anywhere like the volume or quality of evidence necessary to cause a catastrophic paradigm shift, nor have you demonstrated that one has already occured.

    Quite the opposite, Egyptologists seem to have incorporated an African element in Egytian history with a minimum of fuss or angst, from what you have presented.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  6. #66
    Member Member Vaginacles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Egypt was not uniformally black

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita_..._africa_1_.pdf

    Historical sources and archaeological data predict significant
    population variability in mid-Holocene northern Africa. Multivariate analyses
    of crania demonstrate wide variation but also suggest an indigenous craniometric
    pattern common to both late dynastic northern Egypt and the coastal
    Maghreb region
    . Both tropical African and European metric phenotypes, as
    well intermediate patterns, are found in mid-Holocene Maghreb sites.
    Early
    southern predynastic Egyptian crania show tropical African affinities, displaying
    craniometric trends that differ notably from the coastal northern
    African pattern.
    The various craniofacial patterns discernible in northern
    Africa are attributable to the agents of microevolution and migration.
    Thus "black Egypt" is a misleading term.


    Also, there is not consensus that all Egyptians came from Nubia. That would be silly and contradict these findings
    Last edited by Vaginacles; 07-09-2012 at 14:14. Reason: more stuff

  7. #67
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Egypt was not uniformally black

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita_..._africa_1_.pdf



    Thus "black Egypt" is a misleading term.


    Also, there is not consensus that all Egyptians came from Nubia. That would be silly and contradict these findings
    Yeah that's what I remember as well and talked about earlier.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    S.O.Y. Keita rejects that notion, from the clip you linked. He specifically said that they had tropically adapted limbs and they were "dark", but he refused to describe them as "Negro" or "African".
    Keita being a modern bio-antropologist rejects the entire notion of the biological concept of race! He would reject not only calling the ancient Egyptians black but any other African peoples and likewise he would reject calling any European population "white". In that exact same video segment he states that the reason for not accepting racial terminology is not because he believes them be distinct in phenotype from other Africans who are generally deemed "black", but because the definition of a said race varies from region to region (where race is even relevant). His research on the other hand which he was lecturing states that the ancient Egyptians generally ranged from broad featured to "Somali like" in cranial variation. He also stated that based on ecological principal that the ancient Egyptians had dark skin as a result of their tropical adaption. Taking away the PC terminology what else is an indigenous dark skinned Northeast African population with "Somali like" facial features called if not black in society. His research has also been contextualized by less "PC" scholars who directly consulted with him on their implications:

    Were the Ancient Egyptians black? That is entirely up to you. But were they biologically African? It would seem that they were. After considering the full range of anatomical, linguistic, cultural, archeological and genetic evidence, Shomarka Keita feels confident in concluding that the original Egyptians by which he means the pre-dynastic people of Southern Egypt, who founded Egyptian civilization evolved entirely in Africa. Both culturally and biologically, he says, they were more related to other Africans than they were to non-Africans from Europe or Asia.

    Through the years, Keita believes, the Egyptians appear to have blended with many immigrants and invaders, many of whom were lighter-skinned and more Caucasoid in appearance than the original Egyptians. Libyans, Persians, Syro-Palestinians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans all left their imprint on the faces of Egypt. But Egyptian civilization remained profoundly African to the very end.

    Keita himself rarely resorts to such crudely racial expressions as black and white. But if we might be forgiven a momentary lapse into everyday speech, it would probably not hurt to conceive of Keita's theory as the polar opposite of the Hamitic Hypothesis. Whereas the Hamitic theorists saw Egypt as a nation of white people that was gradually infiltrated by blacks, the biological evidence seems to suggest that it was more like a black nation that was gradually infiltrated by whites.

    Black Spark White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? - Chapter 77. Black, White or Biologically African? Pg. 471
    Once again the author of this book who is not a bio-anthropologist and as such is not blocked from resorted to racial terminology, consulted with Keita and from that came to the conclusion above. The conclusion above has been echoed by a number of contemporary scholars to some even stretching all the way back to the 18th century. It has been validated by contemporary research as well (from numerous sources).

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    the thing I was struck by was the refusal to simply equate Egypt with Nubia, or anywhere else. If you read the paper on Nubian pastoralism, one of the first things the author makes clear is that you cannot infer skin colour from cultural grouping or interaction.
    Why are you trying to make skin color inferences based on archaeological evidence? Why not

    You have been presented with biological evidence ranging from genetics to anthropology stating that the ancient Egyptians and Nubians were essentially the same people; You have been presented with archaeological and cultural evidence backing these findings suggesting a common Saharan origin for this group of people who would later become to separate political entities. In other words just about all evidence is against the notion that one was black while the other was something else, because they were the same people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    She also made the point that from the beggining of the dynastic period there is a fairly hard break between Egyptian and Nubian cultures, going in both directions,
    Since the beginning of the Dynastic era is when Egypt became it's own separate political entity, what is your point? The entire point of this section of the publication, is to show that ancient Egypt did essentially derive from Nubian political structure. This has been accepted for years, even by the modern Egyptian antiquities counsel:

    "According to common knowledge, it has generally been held that there was a geographical, cultural and political boundary between Egypt and Nubia in the Predynastic/Early Dynastic period, and it was located between Gebel es Silsila and Aswan . Any Egyptian evidence in Nubia was seen as an import or cultural influence, while any Nubian evidence in Upper Egypt was viewed as the sporadic presence of foreign people within Egyptian territory. As a consequence, the cemeteries located from Kubbaniya southwards were assigned to the A-Group culture.

    In recent years, new research on the subject shows that the interaction between the two cultures was much more complex than previously thought, affecting the time, space and nature of the interaction. As a result, the Aswan area probably never was a real borderline. The two regions, and so their cultural entities, are not antithetical to one another, but in prehistoric times are still the expression of the same cultural tradition, with strong regional variations, particularly in the last part of the 4th millennium BC.

    "In the Predynastic period, the Egyptian and Nubian identities still shared many common traits derived from a common ancestry. The Naqada culture developed from the Badarian culture which, as the Tasian, was related to the Nubian Neolithic tradition (Gatto 2002; 2006c). Thus, the definition of what was Egyptian or Nubian at that time in the First Cataract region (and the southern part of Upper Egypt) is not so obvious: are the local cooking pots (shale-tempered ware), for example, Egyptian or Nubian?"

    --GATTO M.C.(2009). Field season in the Aswan-Kom Ombo region of Egypt." Aswan-Kom Ombo. Archaeological Project. Report to: The Supreme Council of Antiquities, Egypt.
    Once again the origins of Egypt and Nubia are the same, hence they were the same people! Trying to separate Egypt from Sudan is no longer viewed as appropriate in modern academia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Now, lety me state this again for you - because you clearly have trouble taking the point - I have no problem with a "Nubian" or "Sub-Saharan" element in Egypt, but that does not make Egypt "Black".
    No YOU don't get! Your insistence that Egypt and Nubia were somehow different entities is false. Your fallacious attempts to equate Nubia as the black civilization and Egypt as something else is false, because they were the same people:

    In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors.

    We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.”
    link

    Saying that there was "Sub Saharan" element to Egypt is a severe underestimate of the fact. It is like saying that there was an Asian element to ancient China. The biological evidence as stated by Donald Redford in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt shows that the ancient Egyptians would be considered black:

    "Physical anthropologists are increasingly concluding that racial definitions are the culturally defined product of selective perception and should be replaced in biological terms by the study of populations and clines. Consequently, any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depend on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks' [i.e in a social sense] while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 27-28
    Why are you fighting this clear fact so vigorously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    As has already been demonstrated to you, the genetic studies you linked to indicate an African affinity, but not necessarily a skin-tone or appearence which we associate with Sub-Saharans.
    Not only does ecological principal show that the ancient Egyptians had dark skin like other tropical African populations to the south of them, but even skin analysis has confirmed that they had the same melanin content as "Negroid" populations whom the same source (like just about every other one) states that they originated from:

    "During an excavation headed by the German Institute for Archaeology, Cairo, at the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt, three types of tissues from different mummies were sampled to compare 13 well known rehydration methods for mummified tissue with three newly developed methods. .. Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
    --(A-M Mekota and M Vermehren. (2005) Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues. Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, Vol. 80, No. 1, Pages 7-13[[37A]]
    I mean my goodness what else does it take to convince you that these ancient Africans were black?

  9. #69

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Egypt was not uniformally black[/

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita_..._africa_1_.pdf
    Thus "black Egypt" is a misleading term.
    Keita notes a similarity between Coastal Maghreb populations and LATE Dynastic Egyptians. What do we already know about Late Dynastic Egyptians?

    Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990).-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
    So in other words the Nubians were closer to early ancient Egyptians than the Late Dynastic descendants of early ancient Egyptians, because late Dynastic Egyptians mixed with populations from the Mediterranean who were obviously biological distinct from the early ancient Egyptians. Not to mention that the balance of population during early ancient Egypt was overwhelming concentrated in the south (upper Egypt). It has been stated that prior to the New Kingdom (numerous foreign invasions occurred) that Lower Egypt was sparsely populations and that the Delta was almost uninhabited (which is the complete opposite of today). The vast majority of Egyptians were of southern origins.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Egypt was not uniformally black

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita_..._africa_1_.pdf



    Thus "black Egypt" is a misleading term.


    Also, there is not consensus that all Egyptians came from Nubia. That would be silly and contradict these findings
    I really don't think that anybody is trying to argue that all Egyptians came from Nubia. However, I think you must have misunderstood the reference that you quoted and highlighted. What you highlighted supports the point that I think is actually being made.

    "Early southern predynastic Egyptian crania show tropical African affinities, displaying craniometric trends that differ notably from the coastal northern African pattern."

    ....which suggests that the Early Dynastic pharoahs, who were of Southern African descent (the early dynasty being the result of Upper Egypt defeating Lower Egypt and ruling both kingdoms), can be differentiated from the Northern African population which appears to have been more divergent.

    Is it important whether 'black' Africans played a significant part in the development of ancient Egypt? Well, it kind of is, I think. There are two facets of this that need to be taken into acount. The first is that we aren't necessarily talking about the sort of people who would play EB and who are, more generally, actually interested in history. We're talking about a more widespread public perception; in much the same way as the general public perceives Rome to have been (and to always have been) a great city of marble palaces and temples peopled by guys in togas spouting philosophy and/or fighting with their lorica-segmentata armoured legions against the rest of the world (apart from the equally impressive Greeks) who lived in mud huts and spoke in mono-syllabic grunts. I may be exaggerating a little but... not as much as you might hope.

    In the same way, ancient Egypt is seen as a sort of near-Eastern Kingdom that happened to have found themselves in North-West Africa, peopled by remarkably light-skinned chaps in stripy robes and daft hats.

    Now, while both of these perceptions are galling to anybody interested in history, and both are ingrained by long-standing cultural references, the latter has a particularly insidious by-product (and is, in fact, borne of the very same presumption.) The notion that Africans are not capable of civilising themselves.

    I will repeat what I have already said, so that there is no misunderstanding here, this is not something I accuse anyone here of. This is, though, a widely held (if mostly unspoken) perception within a larger framework. Just as it is right to try and put right perceptions of Rome's 'barbarian' enemies, so it is right to give Africa it's due with regard to African civilisation.
    Last edited by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus; 07-09-2012 at 20:31.

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  11. #71
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    I mean my goodness what else does it take to convince you that these ancient Africans were black?
    Where do we state we don't see them as 'black'? Which to me however is wrong to use in this context, as it is full of modern connotations, perception and perhaps even unintentional racism. Worse of course is Negroid. We think of them as largely if not mostly African natives, originating out mainly of two different African cultures, somewhat influenced by the outside world. Skin colour would have varied and those from the south would be more dark skinned than Egyptians in the North.

    Your frustration also seems to suggest you somehow feel the need to convince people of this, clearly you have more reasons for debating and researching this than to discover truth, if I may be so blatant.

    I think it is also clear that both EB I and EB II do not give a message that Africans or people of whatever origin are less able to produce advanced culture and civilization. On the contrary EB rather tries to show every culture in their own right. Thus I don't see why you are pushing so hard.

    I think the main sentiment is that you are mostly right in away, but over simplifying things a bit mainly. That and I have to concur with Ibrahim that your methods aren't always that kosher.

  12. #72
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    Keita being a modern bio-antropologist rejects the entire notion of the biological concept of race! He would reject not only calling the ancient Egyptians black but any other African peoples and likewise he would reject calling any European population "white". In that exact same video segment he states that the reason for not accepting racial terminology is not because he believes them be distinct in phenotype from other Africans who are generally deemed "black", but because the definition of a said race varies from region to region (where race is even relevant). His research on the other hand which he was lecturing states that the ancient Egyptians generally ranged from broad featured to "Somali like" in cranial variation. He also stated that based on ecological principal that the ancient Egyptians had dark skin as a result of their tropical adaption. Taking away the PC terminology what else is an indigenous dark skinned Northeast African population with "Somali like" facial features called if not black in society. His research has also been contextualized by less "PC" scholars who directly consulted with him on their implications:

    Once again the author of this book who is not a bio-anthropologist and as such is not blocked from resorted to racial terminology, consulted with Keita and from that came to the conclusion above. The conclusion above has been echoed by a number of contemporary scholars to some even stretching all the way back to the 18th century. It has been validated by contemporary research as well (from numerous sources).

    Why are you trying to make skin color inferences based on archaeological evidence? Why not

    You have been presented with biological evidence ranging from genetics to anthropology stating that the ancient Egyptians and Nubians were essentially the same people; You have been presented with archaeological and cultural evidence backing these findings suggesting a common Saharan origin for this group of people who would later become to separate political entities. In other words just about all evidence is against the notion that one was black while the other was something else, because they were the same people.

    Since the beginning of the Dynastic era is when Egypt became it's own separate political entity, what is your point? The entire point of this section of the publication, is to show that ancient Egypt did essentially derive from Nubian political structure. This has been accepted for years, even by the modern Egyptian antiquities counsel:

    Once again the origins of Egypt and Nubia are the same, hence they were the same people! Trying to separate Egypt from Sudan is no longer viewed as appropriate in modern academia.

    No YOU don't get! Your insistence that Egypt and Nubia were somehow different entities is false. Your fallacious attempts to equate Nubia as the black civilization and Egypt as something else is false, because they were the same people:

    link

    Saying that there was "Sub Saharan" element to Egypt is a severe underestimate of the fact. It is like saying that there was an Asian element to ancient China. The biological evidence as stated by Donald Redford in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt shows that the ancient Egyptians would be considered black:

    Why are you fighting this clear fact so vigorously?

    Not only does ecological principal show that the ancient Egyptians had dark skin like other tropical African populations to the south of them, but even skin analysis has confirmed that they had the same melanin content as "Negroid" populations whom the same source (like just about every other one) states that they originated from:

    I mean my goodness what else does it take to convince you that these ancient Africans were black?
    Look, you cannot prove your point, so just drop it already. I watched your clip, a black student tried to get Keita to say the Egyptians were Negroid, African, or Black - he refused to say anything other than "tropically adapted" and "dark", he specifically said he could not say "how dark".

    You have not demonstrated that Egyptians and Nubians were the same people, I read one of the articles in that BAR report and the impression I got was that they do not share a material culture, but have two overlapping cultures - that usually indicates two populations.

    Your genetic evidence is not conclusive, it is drawn from a small socially isolated (and often inbred) sample over a long period of time, and it proves an element of Sub-Saharan ancestry, nothing more.

    Why am I fighting you?

    I think your methods are poor and your motivations are suspect. Specifically, I think you have a racial axe to grind because of your own heritage.

    Now, I have said that there was clearly a Sub-Saharan element to Egyptian culture, but given the evidence that points away from a a Sub-Saharan population, including the variable morphological and material evidence, as well as the way the Egyptians depicted themselves, I consider any statement beyond that to be wholly unsound.

    Further, I consider describing the population as "Black" to be pointless and only useful in a modern political context, mainly in the cause of depriving modern Egyptians of a part of their heritage. The word "Black", when applied racially is purely perjorative, it is not actually descriptive - this is why some of my ancestors were described as "Black Welsh" by the English. Your insistence on us admitting that the Egyptians "were black" is a transparent claim to historical ownership - and I will not have it.

    It makes about as much sense as blond Germanic Jesus.
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  13. #73
    Member Member Constantius III's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    Your frustration also seems to suggest you somehow feel the need to convince people of this, clearly you have more reasons for debating and researching this than to discover truth, if I may be so blatant.
    Butting in for a second here, but this is pretty accurate. Other accounts with a suspiciously similar posting style citing the exact same evidence over and over and over again have popped up on some other historical gaming forums, like the Total War Center (example thread) and the Civilization Fanatics' Forums (example thread). While the accounts do talk about other stuff from time to time - the dude isn't a troll - he does seem to have a thing for ancient Egyptian skin color in general and the work of this Dr. Keita in particular.
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  14. #74
    Member Member Ironduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    I'm trying to follow both arguments here. I’m going to use simple terminology here to help me.

    The Unbreakable is saying/inferring: Egypt was most certainly a 'black' African nation. And over the 2000 year period from its founding until the time of Cleopatra, the variation in population changed do to immigration and conquest from outsiders. So by the time Cleopatra was around; Alexandria, Cairo etc... were looking more 'Mediterranean' in colour. However, the population who built the Pyramids and ruled over Egypt’s ‘golden days’ were black.

    Everyone else is saying: Egypt, during its golden days, was a mix of southern black people and Semitic/other light skinned people. The coming together of these cultures is what spawned the civilization and labeling it as any race or one culture is a-historical.

    Am I correct? I will be honest, when I heard the Black Athena lecture I was suprised because when I look at Egyptian murials, I usually see light brown and tan colour, but there are also, as it was brought to my attention, dark portraits as well. But I was convinced the Egyptians were a Phoenician people of swarthy complextion similar to others in the costal region, looking something like Cristiano Ronaldo in skin tone.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 07-09-2012 at 23:31.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'm trying to follow both arguments here. I’m going to use simple terminology here to help me.

    The Unbreakable is saying/inferring: Egypt was most certainly a 'black' African nation. And over the 2000 year period from its founding until the time of Cleopatra, the variation in population changed do to immigration and conquest from outsiders. So by the time Cleopatra was around; Alexandria, Cairo etc... were looking more 'Mediterranean' in colour. However, the population who built the Pyramids and ruled over Egypt’s ‘golden days’ were black.

    Everyone else is saying: Egypt, during its golden days, was a mix of southern black people and Semitic/other light skinned people. The coming together of these cultures is what spawned the civilization and labeling it as any race or one culture is a-historical.

    Am I correct? I will be honest, when I heard the Black Athena lecture I was suprised because when I look at Egyptian murials, I usually see light brown and tan colour, but there are also, as it was brought to my attention, dark portraits as well. But I was convinced the Egyptians were a Phoenician people of swarthy complextion similar to others in the costal region, looking something like Cristiano Ronaldo in skin tone.
    Certainly, what I am saying is that the evidence is ambiguous, and therefore I am not willing to label the Egyptian civilisation according to any modern definitions, but the totality of the available evidence, especially from the New Kingdom, would appear to indicate something other than a purely Sub-Saharan population.
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Through the years, Keita believes, the Egyptians appear to have blended with many immigrants and invaders, many of whom were lighter-skinned and more Caucasoid in appearance than the original Egyptians. Libyans, Persians, Syro-Palestinians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans all left their imprint on the faces of Egypt. But Egyptian civilization remained profoundly African to the very end.

    this very notion is wrong and i doubt he had said it this way separating lybians from egyptians the only reason why i say that egyptians are diferent from nubians is because that when the sahara dried up everyone went for the places with water and egypt got itīs population boom (critical mass ) to jumpstart itīs civilization (iīm saying it from head from a chaotic remembrance on how things went and no i will not go into massive overdrive of researching to prove my point if you like it take it if not go and loose your time studying what 1000 people already studied and proved just to try and come back at me personally )

    at the very least both the lybians and canaanites have as much influence on egypt as nubians do (altough i prefer to think that the egyptians have done it for themselfs in spite of all those pesky people trying to steal the fruits of their labour )

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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    I have been following this discussion almost from the start and I just want to point out certain things that will enable the debate to move forward with some measure of clarity on both sides

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerX5 View Post
    There needs to be a common defining of the term "black" while were talking about the physical of a people. I understand that the term "black" carries a connotation of a myriad of social statuses in the world (whether positive or negative), I think it would be beneficial for the sake of this argument if we strip that word of all meaning beside a generalized description of African features, most importantly a significantly dark skin color. Or even better how about we just stick to the term Nilotic?

    My definition of a 'Black' African POPULATION is any dark skin, mostly tropical/supertropically adapted indigenous population in Africa.
    It has nothing to do with the Biological Concept of Race(Negroid,Cauacasoid,Mongoloid etc-THAT DOS NOT EXIST) since biologically speaking Populations are(consist) Clusters of VARIATIONS of disparate traits which is a Cline from one population to the other ie they are NOT typological distinct units of the human species of some finely defined traits.

    Now, 'Black' Africans(as a source UnBreakable had previously provided says -Hiervaux 1975) are the most diverse groups of populations on earth, in terms of most kinds of traits-genetic,somatic,metric etc-so there is not a single way to be a 'Black' or 'Sub-SAharan' African; the myth of the 'True Negro'(ie Broad type) as the only true 'Black' is xacly that, a myth. There 'Black' Africans who are prognathous(Nuer,Igbos),others who are orthognathous(eg Shilluk, SOmalis);some with thin noses(eg Maasai,Fulani), others with Broad noses(Zulus,Yoruba);some have very tightly coiled hair(Khoisan), others curly(Kanuri,Beja) etc etc -most others having variations of these traits, even in the same population. All these diverse people are genetically 'African' and dark skin(which actually hinges on 'Brown'-very light Brown like Khoisans,Brownish-Yellow like some Southern Nigerians, Bronzed-Brown like Kanuri, Reddish-Brown like Teita,Chocolate-Brown like Yorubas, Copper-colour Brown,very dark Brown like Dinka and Ashanti etc, again with variations of these skin colors WITHIN most of these populations).

    So, as UnBreakabele as shown, since the arky Ancient Egyptians were basically(ie in the main) were a diverse populations of Nilo-SAharans and Afrasans Indigenous North-East Africans, and where certainly tropically/supertropically ADapted, then they can be said to be 'Black' Africans in a social sense. If there were a small number of people from the Near East(which is likely, though there seem to be no clear evidence yet presented) they would have just have added to the variability already in place(esp in the less populated Delta) and would not have made the general population 'admixed'. Importantly, it is clar that the early Egyptian culture(Naqada culture) which directly gave rise rise to the Dynastic Egyptian
    culture entirely originatd in Upper(southern) Nile Valley from a set of related cultural groups(called variusly 'SAharo-Nubian' Anselin 2011,'Nile Valley Pastoral Neolithic' ,'Nubian Neolithic' GAtto 2011) that was distributed from below the 6th cataract deep in the Sudan to Middle Egypt. including the adjourning Western and Eastern Deserts. It is also important to note that the first elements of this vast Culture Group was in the south of Egypt(Nubia and adjoining Deserts ) before they came to southern Egypt.



    The arguments that have been put against the more holistic approach put forward (by The Unbreakable) seem to be piecemeal. It isn't just morphology, or genetics, but also cultural, religious and archaeological, which all together make for a pretty compelling proposition.


    Lets us take this statement at hearts cos raising doubts(without actually providing evidences to argue otherwise) on just a few lines to a stance, which is itself based on the marshaling on all Lines of Evidence, does not invalidate that stance. I see no real counter-evidence presented to UnBreakabel(and maybe it is out there) but doubts raised on some of the Lins of Evidence in what seem like a sound proposition from UnBreakable and the intermittent 'wailing' on WHY he is arguing the points. Lets stick to the main argument PLZ.


    @ UnBreakabele. Just for clarification are you arguing that ALL Early Egyptians were 'Black'? And are you equating Nubia and Egypt? Was Nubia itself not a divers African region?

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  18. #78

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    ^^^ Much thanks for you sensibility and objectivity in your analysis of this discussion thus far!

    To answer your question:

    1) While I believe that there is a great possibility that non black people were present in Pre-Dynastic Lower Egypt, I contend that the general populace of early Egyptian society was overwhelmingly of more southerly African origins (including that of Lower Egypt) meaning that they were black.

    2) I am only equating Nubia and Egypt (particularly Upper Egypt) in a political sense during the times directly before "Egypt" as we know it came to be.

    3) Yes, the term Nubia was one that was the used to refer to the vast regions across the Sudan and points beyond. That being said Nubians were a diverse group of Africans with various ethnic groups.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    You have not demonstrated that Egyptians and Nubians were the same people,
    Has this not already been demonstrated to you countless times throughout this thread? Better yet when are you going to actually acknowledge my numerous sources and their implications presented throughout this thread? You stated that you weren't ignoring them that you would respond to each of their implications, a couple of days ago. Why are you ignoring all of this evidence, in a sad effort to dismiss the fact that ancient Egypt was originally a black African civilization? Anyway here are the words of Keita, which is yet another source which directly refutes your claims:

    "However, as is well known and accepted, rapid evolution can occur. Also, rapid change in northeast Africa might be specifically anticipated because of the possibilities for punctuated microevolution (secondary to severe micro-selection and drift) in the early Holocene Sahara, because of the isolated communities and cyclical climatic changes there, and their possible subsequent human effects. The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration (Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (see above and discussion; Keita 1990).-- S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
    link

    Yet another ode to the common Saharan (Nilotic) origins of both Egyptians and Nubians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Further, I consider describing the population as "Black" to be pointless and only useful in a modern political context, mainly in the cause of depriving modern Egyptians of a part of their heritage.
    Oh my goodness not this sad argument! No one is "depriving" anyone of their "heritage". Modern Egyptians (especially those of the urban north) are of multiple "heritages" ranging from Dynastic Egyptians, to Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Romans ect. Most modern Egyptians are aware of and accept this fact. Most accept the fact that they are today generally a mixed race people. Pointing to the fact that the Dynastic Egyptian heritage is that which came from black Africans is not something that shocks the Hell out of them. In fact here are "modern" Egyptians who embrace the black African heritage of their original Egyptian ancestors:





    Here's Robert Bauval (an Egyptian) who states the common knowledge amongst modern Egyptians that the original ancient Egyptians were black Africans:



    Here's what encyclopedia Britannica says about the matter:

    "In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")
    Gee now how many sources have you heard this from by now? Yet still won't accept it.


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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    Has this not already been demonstrated to you countless times throughout this thread? Better yet when are you going to actually acknowledge my numerous sources and their implications presented throughout this thread? You stated that you weren't ignoring them that you would respond to each of their implications, a couple of days ago. Why are you ignoring all of this evidence, in a sad effort to dismiss the fact that ancient Egypt was originally a black African civilization? Anyway here are the words of Keita, which is yet another source which directly refutes your claims:
    I do not accept that the evidence you have presented supports the weight of such a claim as "The egyptians were Black".

    Making such a definitive statement is an extremely bold move, and the only evidence you have for it are some genetic tests which indicate African affinity and extremely variable craniometric and other morthological data. That is not sufficient to explain the other craniometric data that points to a Eurasian population, the vast number of depictions of tan-coloured Egyptians or to argue against relatively early Caananite infiltration, given the evidence that proto-Caananite writing is developed from Hieroglyphs.

    Oh, and Robert Bauval is not an Egyptian - he is of Maltese and Belgian extraction, he was born in Alexandria during the British mandate and recieved a British education. He is also an enginear by trade and not an Egyptologist.

    Your quote from Keita, I read the article, he finishes with, "the southern predynastic peoples were Saharo-tropical varients" Key being "predynastic" and "southern". He also estimates that 5% of unions between Egyptians and near-Easterners would produce a population closer to modern Egyptians than Sub-Saharans in about 1,500 years - or around the New Kingdom.

    So, again, your evidence does not support the weight of your claim.

    I could also put forward an alternative definition of "Black", such as the one used in South Africa today, which a large number of self-identifying black populations would fail to qualify for - including the vast majority of African-Americans and many Carribeans, which just goes to demonstrate how useless the term is.

    Again, calling Egypt "black" is a matter of political group-ownership.

    Edit: Your posting of a JSTOR article to another download site and linking it here is in breach of JSTOR's terms and conditions, and therefore Org policy - please take it down.
    Last edited by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla; 07-10-2012 at 11:01.
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    Keita notes a similarity between Coastal Maghreb populations and LATE Dynastic Egyptians. What do we already know about Late Dynastic Egyptians?



    So in other words the Nubians were closer to early ancient Egyptians than the Late Dynastic descendants of early ancient Egyptians, because late Dynastic Egyptians mixed with populations from the Mediterranean who were obviously biological distinct from the early ancient Egyptians. Not to mention that the balance of population during early ancient Egypt was overwhelming concentrated in the south (upper Egypt). It has been stated that prior to the New Kingdom (numerous foreign invasions occurred) that Lower Egypt was sparsely populations and that the Delta was almost uninhabited (which is the complete opposite of today). The vast majority of Egyptians were of southern origins.
    did you read the article? It examines skulls in the PREDYNASTIC period in lower egypt and north africa. Furthermore, there is no empirical way of establishing population levels 8000 years ago. The only possible way to determine this is to do an analysis of carrying capacity of upper and lower egypt. Given the fact that lower egypt has a delta it would suggest that lower egypt would have a higher ability to produce crops due to a larger amount of arable land. When the Akkadians conquered Sumer, was it because they had more population? or was it because they were united under Sargon I while the Sumerian city states fought amongst themselves?

    Egypt is composed of UPPER AND LOWER Egypt. Simply because upper egypt became more unified and conquered the north does not make egypt suddenly "black". It is well known that Lower and upper Egypt was composed of many city states with different political allegiences. It is very well possible that the drying of the sahara desert forced these pastoralists southward to Upper Egypt, exceeding the local carrying capacity of the region. When a region becomes overpopulated, they move to other territories to conquer. With the idea of Kingship (from the nubians), they unified upper egypt and crushed the independent city states of lower egypt one by one. This is seen in countless civilizations, but never has the indigenous race ever been fully supplanted by the invaders. By marginalizing the role of Lower egypt in predynastic egypt, you are essentially doing what the "whites" did when they conquer a land, change the history so that it was the conquering "race" that owned the land, and not previous inhabitants.

    There is also evidence that the cultural unification of upper and lower egypt occurred prior to the first dynasties and state formation, and that lower egypt had an integral part in this new culture. The Gerzean period was quite different from the earlier Amratian culture, and it is believed to have originated in the north (since the first recorded evidence of this culture is north of upper egypt proper and later evidence of this culture was found south, halting near the borders of nubia). Once again, this suggests a complex, bidirectional influences of both lower and upper egypt, without which there could be no justification for unification into one nation.

    I am not denying the role "blacks" from upper africa played in egypt. However, Egypt was NOT a black civilization anymore than North America being a white continent. Just because the victors write the history, does not make it true. Pretending that Lower Egypt played no role in the formation of the Egyptian state and culture, while also claiming that the arable land of the nile delta (long being the most productive of Egypt) was somehow sparsely populated, is painting over a large part of Egyptian history simply to satisfy the historic injustice blacks have suffered under european oppression. This is not the way to truth, this is propaganda.

    Summary of evidence that indicate Lower Egypt was a thriving and populus country during the predynastic period: http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpa...10-1_egypt.htm.Perhaps a less biased source is also found herehttp://www.antiquityofman.com/EgyptianPredynastic.html. I would not go so far as to conclude that the semites were the origins of egyptian culture, nor would i say that lower egyptians were semitic, but rather they played a significant role in lower egyptian culture, and to a lesser extent, upper egypt. One of the reason for upper egypt's evenual superiority was because of it's lack of resources, fostering competition and quicker unification than in lower egypt where there was far more resources and less conflict due to resource scarcity (second link), not because of greater populatio numbers.
    Last edited by Vaginacles; 07-10-2012 at 15:13.

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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    I saw this in one of those other forums that Constantius III linked to. Whether or not the writer is the same I find the point I highlighted to be very relevant as to why The Unbreakable may be getting so adamant that we accept this.

    Why Egypt’s Africanity must be recognized

    Acknowledging the African roots of ancient Egypt is important for two reasons. The first reason is that it will make our reconstructions of ancient Egypt more accurate. When recreating the past we must strive to be as accurate as possible. Failure to be accurate would lead to the propagation of misconceptions that distort our view of the past.

    The second reason is that denying Egypt its Africanity in spite of the facts does a disservice to people of African descent. It denies them their heritage and sends the message that people of their stock could not have accomplished a civilization as powerful or influential as Egypt. It therefore perpetuates racism against Africans and people with African ancestry.

    If we are to challenge racism and come together as one species, we must admit the fact that people of all skin tones have contributed to human development throughout history. We should stop pretending that only the light-skinned peoples of Europe and Asia matter in history. To continue to do so is to perpetuate a harmful lie.
    I think this point is being echoed in the writing of The Unbreakable. It is a distortion or a bias in reading the few facts we have that seems to skew his opinion.

    The most important thing I think besides all the cranial data and inconclusive DNA data is the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. No matter what you think there are colour paintings that show light skinned egyptians alongside dark skinned egyptians. Now you guys can throw around all your differing hypotheses about why this came to be but straight up we have a physical evidence that they had a society comprised of multiple skin types. This has nothing to do with 'black-pride' anymore than it has to do with 'white-propaganda'. The egyptian society was comprised of all types as evidenced by their own artwork.
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    I saw this in one of those other forums that Constantius III linked to. Whether or not the writer is the same I find the point I highlighted to be very relevant as to why The Unbreakable may be getting so adamant that we accept this.



    I think this point is being echoed in the writing of The Unbreakable. It is a distortion or a bias in reading the few facts we have that seems to skew his opinion.

    The most important thing I think besides all the cranial data and inconclusive DNA data is the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. No matter what you think there are colour paintings that show light skinned egyptians alongside dark skinned egyptians. Now you guys can throw around all your differing hypotheses about why this came to be but straight up we have a physical evidence that they had a society comprised of multiple skin types. This has nothing to do with 'black-pride' anymore than it has to do with 'white-propaganda'. The egyptian society was comprised of all types as evidenced by their own artwork.
    This is what I don't get either. During the lecture I attended, it was hard not to notice all the lighter skinned Egyptians on the murials. There was one picture where it showed Egyptian charioteers with the standard tan skin tone and long hair, and in another picture Nubian charioteers with short hair and black skin. They didn't seem like the same race.

    If you look at India today, there are black indians and white indians. All of them claim to be Indian but they are clearly not of the same stock. I think ancient Egypt presembled a skin variety similar to that of modern day India.

  24. #84

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    did you read the article? It examines skulls in the PREDYNASTIC period in lower egypt and north africa.
    Yeah, I believe that I'm the one who linked you all to it. The statement that you cited specifically dealt with Late Dyanstic Lower Egyptians, and their cranial commonality with Coastal Northwest Africans. None the less the study indicates, that even Pre-Dynastic Lower Egyptians had a cranio-metric value that was between that of tropical African populations and some European ones. But of course you wouldn't argue that Europeans settled the Lower Nile, without of a shred of archaeological, linguistic, or cultural data would you? What this finding indicates (and as Keita indicates) the Lower Egyptian crania was divergent from that which is seen in Upper Egypt and Nubia, which negates population mixing but rather indigenous African variation. More recent analysis also confirm that the early Lower Egyptian cranio-metric pattern was indigenous to Africa:

    More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). -- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
    Something else to note, is that Coastal Northwest African populations obtained their intermediate cranio-metric population, due to admixture between tropical African and European populations. This corner of Africa has been proven to have been a true melting pot of "races" if you will for thousands of years by anthropology (as evident in that same study by Keita) and genetics:

    "The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated.. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
    -- Coudray et al. (2008). The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations. Annals of Human Genetics. Volume 73 Issue 2, Pages 196 - 214
    The genetic distinction between Northwest Africans and Lower Egyptians is confirmation that Lower Egyptians were not a mirror population of Northwest Africans. As you can see the complete lack of a European genetic component (as well as archaeological, linguistic, or cultural evidence) in these Lower Egyptian Berbers and rather more of an East African affinity confirms that there was not an early European presence in early Lower Egypt. This negates the claim that their early intermediate cranio-metric value was the result of tropical African and European admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Furthermore, there is no empirical way of establishing population levels 8000 years ago.
    Says who? The sparsely populated Delta and Lower Egyptian region during early Dynastic times, is a fact that won't find much (if any) opposition against:

    As elaborated earlier, the major part of the Predynastic Delta was by no means a marshy wasteland, inhabited only by scattered pastoral communities. Such a conclusion is compatible with the antiquity of the Delta's cult centers and the fact that the Delta was the Lower Egypt of the semimythical wars of unification in the late fourth millennium B.C.(Kaiser 1964). In fact, the ten oldest of the twenty Lower Egyptian nomes predate the 3d dynasty (Helck 1974, pp. 199 f.) and are significantly situated between the Delta distributaries (Keiser 1964). Furthermore, over thirty towns north of Cairo are verified archeologically or epigraphically by the end of the Middle Kingdom (fig. 4).

    It is nonetheless probable that settlements were far more dispersed than they were in Upper Egypt, that overall population density was significantly lower, and that the northernmost one-third of the Delta was almost unpopulated in Old Kingdom times. In effect, a considerable body of information can be marshalled to show that the Delta was underdeveloped and that internal colonization continued for some three millennia, until the late Ptolemaic era.
    link

    Your entire premise seems to ride on your own speculative theory that Lower Egypt was of equal importance to the creation of Dynastic Egyptian civilization, and of course the baseless assertion that these Lower Egyptians were some sort of Semitic people. Of course you nor anyone else entertaining this notion has provided any biological evidence suggesting this to be the case. Even those who chose to throw away real scientific evidence and rely solely of subjective art work interpretations cannot point out any representations of Egyptian artwork showing a distinction in phenotype between Upper and Lower Egyptians, which is interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    It is very well possible that the drying of the sahara desert forced these pastoralists southward to Upper Egypt, exceeding the local carrying capacity of the region.
    It forced Nilotic pastoralist northward into Lower Egypt as well:

    This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000)....

    Later, stimulated by mid-Holocene droughts, migration from the Sahara contributed population to the Nile Valley (Hassan 1988, Kobusiewicz 1992, Wendorf and Schild 1980, 2001); the predynastic of upper Egypt and later Neolithic in lower Egypt show clear Saharan affinities. A striking increase of pastoralists’ hearths are found in the Nile valley dating to between 5000-4000 BCE (Hassan 1988). Saharan Nilo-Saharan speakers may have been initial domesticators of African cattle found in the Sahara (see Ehret 2000, Wendorf et. Al. 1987). Hence there was a Saharan “Neolithic” with evidence for domesticated cattle before they appear in the Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 2001). Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246
    link

    The baseline culture of pre-Dynastic Lower Egypt is seen as a continuation of Nilotic Saharan traditions, like that of Upper Egypt. Now while it is probable that some people from the Levant may have settled in the region prior to unification, it is merely speculative and being such is confirmation that their (people from the Levant) role in the creation of Egypt was insignificant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Once again, this suggests a complex, bidirectional influences of both lower and upper egypt, without which there could be no justification for unification into one nation.
    Who denies these facts? I'm only denying your baseless implications of what you think this points to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    I am not denying the role "blacks" from upper africa played in egypt. However, Egypt was NOT a black civilization anymore than North America being a white continent. Just because the victors write the history, does not make it true. Pretending that Lower Egypt played no role in the formation of the Egyptian state and culture
    Once again your entire premise is set on the baseless conclusion that Upper Egyptians were black and Lower Egyptians were some lighter skinned Semitic people. If you believe this to be true then you need to provide the scientific evidence suggesting this to be the case, rather than expecting people to accept this at face value. On the other hand what I have presented in this discussion confirms a biological distinction between Lower Egyptians the Middle Easterners and rather a biological continuum between Lower Egyptians and African populations further to the south:

    "..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
    So from here we can see that those people of early Lower Egypt had the same tropical African adaptive traits as the "black" populations further to the south, which is distinct from that of the Levant. Tropical adaptation means (based on ecological principal) that a population has "dark skin". Lower Egyptians likely had a skin color within the great range (the widest range in the world) of that seen in tropical African further to the south (from Igbo yellow to Dinka pitch black).

    In essence what you see in early Lower Egypt is a population that has a cranial morphological indigenous to Africa; tropical African adaptive traits (pointing to an origins in the tropics further to the south); a Nilotic African pastoralist basis of their pre-dynastic culture. Tell me what to you indicates that these people were Levantine or were somehow lighter skinned then those Egyptians further to the south. Provide biological evidence for your claim or please admit that your claim is baseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    while also claiming that the arable land of the nile delta (long being the most productive of Egypt) was somehow sparsely populated,
    What you are claiming that I'm fabricating, is showing your own lack of knowledge in regard to this subject. As you can see above from an authoritative source Lower Egypt was sparsely populated, and the Delta was almost uninhabited prior to the New Kingdom. Will you admit that you are wrong about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Summary of evidence that indicate Lower Egypt was a thriving and populus country during the predynastic period: http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpa...10-1_egypt.htm.
    You have got to be kidding me? That website is a joke, which makes points are not even entertained by mainstream academia (i.e Oxford, Fitzwilliam, Cambridge, Yale ect). "Semitic origins" of ancient Egypt is one of their sub sections...did they content on stopping their research of this during the 1950's? Can you name even one modern academic institute that would side with this random website? That website is trash dude, you need to come with something better than that to combat my sources (not trying to toot my horn or anything but its true).
    Last edited by The Unbreakable; 07-10-2012 at 19:09.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    the vast number of depictions of tan-coloured Egyptians or to argue against relatively early Caananite infiltration, given the evidence that proto-Caananite writing is developed from Hieroglyphs.
    Once again, you've been refuted on every point that you've attempted to argue, and rather than accepting what they clearly indicate about the people of ancient Egypt (that they were black), you question their validity (at least the sources that you actually acknowledge). That being said this is likely my last response to you:

    In regards to your insistence on ignoring consistent biological evidence, obfuscating their clear implications, and trying to dismiss their contextualization by other scholars you chose to focus on subject artwork. Well here is what Keita has to say about relying on such:

    Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation. (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Oh, and Robert Bauval is not an Egyptian - he is of Maltese and Belgian extraction, he was born in Alexandria during the British mandate and recieved a British education. He is also an enginear by trade and not an Egyptologist.
    Robert Bauval is a respected scholar whose opinion on the matter of Egypt's origins has been featured on everything from BBC to ABC (all relevant channels in between). Trying to discredit him because he contextualizes the research of numerous anthropologist in a way that don't want is silly. The other Egyptian professors whom I cited also give credence to the more southerly (black African) origins of Egyptian civilizations.

    [QUOTE=Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla;2053465328] Your quote from Keita, I read the article, he finishes with, "the southern predynastic peoples were Saharo-tropical varients" Key being "predynastic" and "southern".
    He also estimates that 5% of unions between Egyptians and near-Easterners would produce a population closer to modern Egyptians than Sub-Saharans in about 1,500 years - or around the New Kingdom.
    My point exactly Egypt, started off black and BECAME mixed by the times of the Late New Kingdom with the combination of prolonged small scale migration and major invasions from the Middle East.

  26. #86
    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Martin Bernal's book Black Athena can be described in 2 simple words: absolute rubbish.

    It's a fine a model for those unsatisfied with history: Just rewrite it.

    .
    Last edited by Dutchhoplite; 07-10-2012 at 20:01.
    I love the smell of bronze in the morning!

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  27. #87
    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    ok i will stop posting here it surpassed the realm of rationality all i gotta say is that a few euro/american decided to rob off egypt of their own history for their own personal insecurities itīs like english claiming for themselfs the greek civilization even tough they are a crapload of miles away from where it happened and they arenīt basically the same people

    you can look at todayīs egyptians and see that they are the descendents of the people that built egypt

  28. #88
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    ok i will stop posting here it surpassed the realm of rationality all i gotta say is that a few euro/american decided to rob off egypt of their own history for their own personal insecurities itīs like english claiming for themselfs the greek civilization even tough they are a crapload of miles away from where it happened and they arenīt basically the same people

    you can look at todayīs egyptians and see that they are the descendents of the people that built egypt
    Today's Egyptians are of variable race - neither Black nor White, nor Semitic or Asian.

    I fail to see how the first half of your post links to the second.

    Certainly, it is true that in the 19th Century European academics appropriated Egypt as a "white" culture just like Greece. However, it is worth remembering that modern European society is Rome reloaded, and therefore do have a strong clutural connection to ancient Greece, especially in philosophy, art and architecture.

    Egypt gave us the prototype for our writing system, via a very circuitous route.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  29. #89
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
    Robert Bauval is a respected scholar whose opinion on the matter of Egypt's origins has been featured on everything from BBC to ABC (all relevant channels in between). Trying to discredit him because he contextualizes the research of numerous anthropologist in a way that don't want is silly. The other Egyptian professors whom I cited also give credence to the more southerly (black African) origins of Egyptian civilizations.
    He lacks any professional qualification, most importantly a PhD, and he has no teaching position. He is not, therefore, a "scholar". He might be termed a researcher, but from his bibliography he appears to be more interested in the esoteric than hard archaeology. All manner of people's opinions are featured on television, that means nothing in particular and TV is a rubbish medium for transmitting information anyway.

    Let me tell you something about what a PhD is - in order to get one you need to do two thins:

    1. You need to make an original contribution to the scholarship in your field, which is examined, and it must be of worth

    2. You must have a command of the entire breadth of your field.

    That's how you get a PhD.

    My point exactly Egypt, started off black and BECAME mixed by the times of the Late New Kingdom with the combination of prolonged small scale migration and major invasions from the Middle East.
    So now we go from "was black" to "started off black".

    So, what's "black".

    I'll say it again, your evidence does not bear the weight of your conclusions. It is not possible to say with any confidence what you are saying. The fact that Keita rubbishes material evidence does not make that evidence worthless, it simply means he does not believe it to be of worth. How the Egyptians depict themselves​ is significant, if the tan-coloured pigment does not approximate the skin colour of the person depicted you must explain why because if the colour is symbolic that symbolism should be recoverable.

    The fact that you have assembled a body of evidence pointing to an African origin does not, in itself, disprove the other evidence.

    WHY are the Egyptians depicting themselves in that way if it is not how they actually look?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  30. #90
    Member Member Ironduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Egyptians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Today's Egyptians are of variable race - neither Black nor White, nor Semitic or Asian.
    Cairo and all the major populace hubs are entirely Arab.

    On your other point, I too see more light skinned Eygptians on their art work. I didn't notice the black tones until it was pointed out to me, but looking back at the same pictures of murial drawings that I've seen before, the darker skin bodies are fewer in number.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 07-10-2012 at 23:25.

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