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Thread: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

  1. #31
    Member Member Khazar_Dahvos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    i too hope for a historical accurate game like EB, but unfortunately we are a small percentage!!! Average gamers dont really give a flying @$%& about historical accuracy or inaccuracy....they wouldnt know the difference. In fact getting to much historical detail would bore alot of the (average) gamers. It wouldnt bother me so much if i knew how moddible it will be. But if its anything like Empire then i dont have much hope!!! Its not about pleasing the minority its about selling to the masses for alot of $$$$.

  2. #32
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by wangchang View Post
    That is my my fear to. This is why to best thing to do is make sure vanilla total war will be already decently accurate. Reminding them they can use EB work is a good way to do this. If along the billions source they could use, one remind them they can use her, they will surely consider it. Especially if this source is EB, the most accurate mod out there, one of the most popular mod. All the work will have already been done.
    Let us not take the risk to think that the designer team will be wise enough to go check europa barbarorum by themselves. THE RISK IS TOO HIGH.

    SO I appeal to the team leaders : PLEASE CONTACT THEM ON BEHALF OF THE WHOLE TEAM.

    thanks
    No need to shout. Jack Lusted as has been said before is a former modder, now working for CA and he like other people from CA know about us and knows where to find us, and even have been here before...

  3. #33
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Ah sorry i'm not shouting. When I write in caps its just to put emphasis on important stuff. I agree there can be confusion, I will use something else. :)

  4. #34
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by Khazar_Dahvos View Post
    i too hope for a historical accurate game like EB, but unfortunately we are a small percentage!!! Average gamers dont really give a flying @$%& about historical accuracy or inaccuracy....they wouldnt know the difference. In fact getting to much historical detail would bore alot of the (average) gamers. It wouldnt bother me so much if i knew how moddible it will be. But if its anything like Empire then i dont have much hope!!! Its not about pleasing the minority its about selling to the masses for alot of $$$$.
    Yeah those 12 year old/22 year old douchebags/16 year old teen in angst are really ruining game experience todays. Not it's all about pleasing their almost dead brains.

  5. #35
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Just ask for moddability lol
    Like that everyone is happy and there's no need to call any third parties or whatever...

    Will they ever listen? Probably not...
    If they need any help they have the resources or contacts to do so, but what matters are sales...

  6. #36
    Member Member Jormungand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by wangchang View Post
    Yeah those 12 year old/22 year old douchebags/16 year old teen in angst are really ruining game experience todays. Not it's all about pleasing their almost dead brains.

    Hahaha, I was a "16 year old teen in angst" when I first made the informed decision to move to EB, and have never looked back since...
    :P

    About the "dead brains", I can sort of make out what you're saying though. Of recent years, at least, the game market has been seemingly pandering more to actiony, fast-paced games with a huge emphasis on multiplayer - for example, the dominance of the Call of Duty and Battlefield franchises.
    Go back about ten years however, there were so many more story-driven games with long campaigns and also a greater cut in the market for the RTS genre (i.e. the popularity of the TW + Age of Empires series back then). Back in those days, you actually had to think about what you were playing a lot more!

    It's sad times have changed...
    Last edited by Jormungand; 07-06-2012 at 17:08.

  7. #37
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by wangchang View Post
    Yeah those 12 year old/22 year old douchebags/16 year old teen in angst are really ruining game experience todays. Not it's all about pleasing their almost dead brains.
    I am 18, playing EB for 3 years now (really? that long already?) and I find this offensive.

    But seriously, if they want to use the information, it's all there in EB/EBII previews and if they need more, CA can easily contact the EB team. They do definitely know about this mod and will have it in mind while making Rome II.
    One quote reminded me especially of EB's philosophy: A developer said that they want 'to offer the player the ancient world as it was in, lets say 325 BC, open to be shaped.'

    The idea of Province consisting of smaller pieces comes in my opnion from DotS where they want have multiple PSFs in a region which influence the region's income by script.

    And the idea of legions with more personality could hail from Roma Surrectum (don't they have multiple, different legions for the romans?).

    So at least they seem to utilise (exploit?) ideas from the modding community.

  8. #38
    Member Member EB rocks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    i have an idea Wangchang start a poll asking people whether the eb team should contact ca or not.
    Is eating a taco.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    I'm pretty certain that there will be plenty that CA will take into account from EB/EB2; however, unlike the EB/EB2 team, CA have not just to make a great, historical game, but also a profit on the investmen made by the company they work for. There is a difference between a labour of love and labour for profit.

    Whatever benefits the new game might bring (I'm impressed by the scale of the city of Carthage in the images that I have seen, the fact that cities/settlements can be individually designed; the possibility of a much expanded map - with many more regions (and the province/region mechanism seems an interesting idea, if done right...), huge battles, naval warfare, improved AI (we'll see...) etc.) what we really have to hope for is... modability.

    So, perhaps what we need to lobby for is modability within certain areas. What are the most important areas for modding, and what scope in those areas is realistically attainable and desirable.

  10. #40
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    On the modability side we might actually have some good news! :)

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...post2053464130

  11. #41
    Member Member Khazar_Dahvos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    makes me feel alot better that at least they are trying!!

  12. #42
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    On topic, this is A post I made in the TWcenter forums, in the rome 2 total war sections. The problem is that I was banned from those forums because they think I am an alt account and other misunderstandings.

    I have decided to register on those forums after I learnt that they were making a new total. I'm ususally not very found on posting sugestions or advices for games, since devellopers almost never read them, but I found out this wasn't the case on those forum and that CA is pretty much more attuned. Also the community seems great and really enthousiatic when it comes to discussing stuff like game design.


    Ok so now to the point: I simply loved the first rome total war, but some stuff disapointed me in the vanilla version : mainly the many historical inaccuracies in the game. It could go from simple details to a whole factions depiction. And about depiction, four factions were particularly affected : The Egyptians, the germans, the Britons AND the GAULS.

    Now I saw that a thread about the egyptians was already made in the section, so i'm not going to talk too much about them. I'm not going to talk too much about germans and britons, since I think that the Britons, germans and Gauls are all an unique case and should not be put into the same basket.
    Since i've been an exchange students in france during 2 year, I had the occasion to learn a lot about this old culture, and I had access to historical reconstitutions and the latest archeological findings.
    In rome total war, the gauls were basically depicted as a generic barbaric culture, and really had that hollywood barbarian style : hordes of unwashed, primitive savage, barely equiped and living in hovels.
    This depiction was reflected in every aspect of their design : from their town (who could'nt even have stone walls) who looked like a bunch of hovels and huts put together and linked with dirt roads, to their unit design, who like I said, were the generic barbarians units.

    Now evidence, mostly recent, shows that they were in fact a pretty sophisticated civilization, and had a level of advancement comparable to the romans. Of course, they were indferior in some fields (the most notable one being engineering, the roman being pretty much the best of antiquity in that field), equals on other and even superior in some.

    I can list those fields were they equalled and even surpassed the romans :
    -philosophy & theology : the druids weren't only religious leaders. In fact, like many civilizations of that time, the priest and scientist class were the same, look at the egyptians, the persians, the mayans... They were great philosophers, even the greeks and the roman praised the deepness of their thoughs
    -Litterature : the fact that they didn't write doesn't mean they had not complex litterature. In fact their poems, essays and stories were transmitted orally. Even today most people have heard of the bards, which is a testimony to their prowess in this fields. They capable of Literary techniques that would have put sometimes some of todays writer to shame. Their litterature wasn't just instinctive.
    -Craftmanship : it's one of those fields were they were often (not always) surpassing the romans. Everything ivolving smithing or building objects (made of woods, or other materials). They were by far the finest metal workers in antiquity, smithing being very complex in nature, this is a testimony of their overall level of advancement. They invented the mailcoat (that revolutionized armament ), the plow (that indisputably revolutionized agriculture) and had left a lot of very fine artworks, most of them having only been recently uncovered. They also invented the barell, one of the most ingenious way to transport liquids and other goods.
    -MAthematics : yeah, now i know most people are surprise and often don't believe it when they hear this, because it's really the antithesis of today's cliche image of the gauls. But the druids did travel a lot, goign to place like alexiandria, the capital of sience at the time (great library) to discuss and exchange theory with the others sicientist (greek,romans,egyptians sometimes even indians). What we know for sure is that they had the same knowledge of those people. What we don't know yet is if they discovered theorems themselves. Since they did not leave any written notes, it's hard to tell. So I'm going to assume theey didn't had a big impact on mathematical theories and were just educated, just like the romans : the romans didn't really liked abstract thinking themselves, so both gauls and romans are probably equals in those fields.
    - Art : it's difficult tho judge art, and I think you can never say one painting is superior to another. You can't judge creativity But, you can judge the level of complexity, the level technique used, and the overall finesse . In those two, the gauls were equals to the romans.They made extremely fine piece piece of art, mainly using metals and wood, while the romans prefered marble and stone. I've many books with lots of pictures about the art of the two civs, and myself i can tell they they are both equals when it comes to the finesse.
    -Chemistry : the druids were famous in the whole Mediterranean for their potions and remedies. They knew how to use each plant and were able of feats that nobody could do. They also used this knowledge when crafting.


    In the fields of architecture, the romans surpassed the gauls, like they surpassed everybody anyway.
    But that doesn't means the gauls had a primitive architecture. In fact they had a very unique style.
    Again contrary to the popular belief, they did build more than just huts and longhouse. Their cities were fully paved, like their roads, their road systhem was one of the most develloped and well kept of those time, with every roads being made of stone or woods. Only the poorer lived in huts, and most of them had big houses, improved from generations to generations, with fine artwork all around the house, low relief, sculptures, and paintings. The cities had big administrative buildings, again with lots of artwork and decorations, large public facilities (even baths, although not as extended as the romans ones), large central places...


    If you want to picture one of their largest oppdiums (cities), just imagine any other big cities of that times (carthage, sparta, even rome) just a bit smaller (there was a bigger rural population) and replace the stone and marble by a wood/stone combo and metal working : you have your gaul oppidium, the same grandeur, the same imposing feeling (or almost, let's not exagerate :P). But DEFINITEVELY NOT a small town with dirt roads, simple house with little to no art or style. So they should NOT be portrayed like they were in rome total war 1.
    Bibactre, one of the biggest gallic oppidium, had over 150 000 inhabitants. Which is still kind of big for that time.
    I could go on and one, about how the gauls also invented soap (they weren't the only ones, germans, phoenicians, syrians... did), were master Dyers (they had very colorfull cloth and gave a lot of importance to their clothing, more than the romans did) (which also means most of them (at least more than 50%) did not went naked or bare torsed in battle, but actually put some nice cloth)...



    So it was a pretty long demonstration, you can check every point in various sources, I even encourage you to do so, not just wikipedia (even if wikipedia pretty much approves what I said, it's just incomplete on some part), but also the works of some historians and some pictures of the gauls art. I also recommend you ''l'univer des formes'' it's a famous french collection on civilizations, and it was translated in english (i think, but anyway it's mostly pictures of artworks no need translations for that :) ).

    I wanted to break most of the préjudice and the comon lie that sticks to the gauls image, even today.
    So the point was to provide a more accurate overview of this people and get rid of this stereotypical view.

    Now how it should reflect in-game compared to the previous rome total war :

    -Units shouldn't be generic and shouldn't be the same as the germans. They should look well equiped (at least for the medium and high tier), and well clothed (for most of them, yet some should be naked or half naked, since SOME gauls did fight that way) and should have that gaulish look.

    -Big cities should look neater and more refined : stone roads, imposing facilities, stone walls, fine architecture, presence of pieces of art, scultpures low relief, big temples.... Basically it should have that ''grandeur'' that the other civs cities are going to have. And and also, it shouldn't be the same cities as the germans : they were both different civilization and should not be put in the same basket.
    In the end, in the game, if one look at a gauls cities, he ewon't say : ''Meh, this city looks pale in comparaison to the carthaginian/egyptian/greek... ones'', it should look as develloped and as fine as those cities. It should have this ''magnificient'' look the other will have, or at least at a comparable level, in the same scale.

    So yeah, that's about it. My hopes is that a CA employee will see this and that it will help, along with many other things (i'm not pretentious :P), make him consider some more options for the design of the gauls. And anyway, I'm also curious to hear your people think about all this, what's your opinion on how CA should stick to historical accuracy and some design ideas you can come up to. I'm also eager to see the debate that will come out of this thread.



    Thanks :), certainly have fun debating :)

    PS : I can't edit anything (don't have permission yet), so if there are grammatical errors I won't be able to correct them. Thanks for your comprehension :)

    It was a big thread, and there was already a big reactions on the forum from the members, most of them approving what I wrote, and defending the gauls against the ''uncultured'' fanboys that bashed on the Gauls.

    I think this could be a thread in itself on those forums, since it could also help improve Europa Barbarorum II, even if I don't think you guys really need this since you already have a huge knowledge on the matter.
    Yet I never saw anything on the cities in your forums, so I think it could be of some help.

  13. #43
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    I also hope you guys will go see the thread here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834

    I also look up to you guys to participate and keep the thread alive. If this thread becomes big, CA might get aware of the matter. It's the best way to inform them if they aren't already.

    So don't hesitate to go in this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834 and to participate in the debate, add more informations, and defend this cause.

    Thanks :), I really hope this thread get the attention it deserve.

  14. #44
    Member Member Chirurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    The steam workshop has been an amazing and virtually seamless way to add mods to Skyrim. I have over 50 mods installed and rarely ever have problems. Without the modding community Skyrim vanilla would have faded away. If done properly modding can add so much creativity to a game. All the developers have to do is provide a stable platform from which modders can jump off of. Just my two cents.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by Chirurgeon View Post
    The steam workshop has been an amazing and virtually seamless way to add mods to Skyrim. I have over 50 mods installed and rarely ever have problems. Without the modding community Skyrim vanilla would have faded away. If done properly modding can add so much creativity to a game. All the developers have to do is provide a stable platform from which modders can jump off of. Just my two cents.
    Yeah without mods, RTW and MTW2 will be dead and the total war franchise will not be popular as today


    It is better to create than to learn! Creating is the essence of life.
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  16. #46
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    uh yeah, but I think the best way to put pressure on CA is to go and keep this thread alive : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834
    It's the place where there is the most people around, and it's were CA employees come often.
    If the thread becomes big (lots of views and comments) CA will probably pay attention .

  17. #47
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Wangchang, that big post that you copied and pasted was filled with spelling errors. I'm not a major grammar nazi but if you are trying to make a point, especially one that is quite important to you as this seems to be, then I can only suggest that you do your best to get it all spellchecked before posting. Blatant errors, especially multiple ones in the same sentence really decrease the effectiveness of your argument.

    Also, can I suggest avoiding the huge, bolded text if at all possible. If you really like it then use it as a paragraph heading. Infrequently as well.

    Finally, try to keep walls of text to a minimum. Be as concise and direct as you can. If you waffle on or talk about many points in a post they all lose effectiveness.
    Good luck with your crusade. =)
    Completed Campaigns:
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    donated by Brennus for attention to detail.

  18. #48
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    Wangchang, that big post that you copied and pasted was filled with spelling errors. I'm not a major grammar nazi but if you are trying to make a point, especially one that is quite important to you as this seems to be, then I can only suggest that you do your best to get it all spellchecked before posting. Blatant errors, especially multiple ones in the same sentence really decrease the effectiveness of your argument.

    Also, can I suggest avoiding the huge, bolded text if at all possible. If you really like it then use it as a paragraph heading. Infrequently as well.

    Finally, try to keep walls of text to a minimum. Be as concise and direct as you can. If you waffle on or talk about many points in a post they all lose effectiveness.
    Good luck with your crusade. =)
    Yeah sorry about the spelling, problem is that because of the size of the thread and the fact that i'm not a native english speaker, I didn't had the time to correct anything. The problem is that I can't edit the spelling in the TWcenter since I was banned. But I can edit them here, so I will see what I can do :)

    Thanks for the advises :)

  19. #49
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by wangchang View Post
    . The problem is that I can't edit the spelling in the TWcenter since I was banned.
    Haha, what did you do? Didn't you just recently join?
    Completed Campaigns:
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    Qart'Hadarst EB 1.2 / Hai EB 1.2
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    donated by Brennus for attention to detail.

  20. #50
    Member Member Jormungand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    Haha, what did you do? Didn't you just recently join?
    I think he made two accounts, from what I could see at the "Rome 2 Total War and EB" thread at TWCenter.

    wangchang, why did you though?
    Last edited by Jormungand; 07-08-2012 at 07:45.

  21. #51
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormungand View Post
    I think he made two accounts, from what I could see at the "Rome 2 Total War and EB" thread at TWCenter.

    wangchang, why did you though?
    Nah the truth is that I made a first account : they banned me without warning. The reason was that while I as away, my brother entered my room and decided to write stupid stuff (like spamming). Before I could explain this to the moderators, I was banned. So I decided to create another account, which they banned because it was an alt, then another one, which they banned again then another one...
    They never realized that there was an obvious incoherence between the spamming incident and my overall participation. I mean, considering the thread I wrote, it's obvious that i'm not a spammer, and that someone else took my account to write stupid stuff.

    Nut they don't even want to hear this, i've sent them countless mail, they don't even reply to them.

    They even banned my ip.

    I was really mad at them.
    The only way I could reach them, was if someone was kind enough to create an account and explain them the matter in detail.

    Well, at least there are two other forums (this one, and forums.totalwar.com) so i don't feel completely rejected. :)
    Last edited by wangchang; 07-09-2012 at 04:01.

  22. #52
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    They still frown on swearing though, even here. We would appreciate it if you refrained (and edited your post).
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  23. #53
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    What PVC said, but also please refrain from TWC bashing. It may all be a misunderstanding and it might not be easy to explain it over there considering you are banned, but misunderstandings happen occasionally. It is however no reason to start bash their moderators, who only want to help their community.


  24. #54
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Yeah sorry, I went too far again :( .

    I agree that I shouldn't bash on them , but it has almost driven to the point of craziness at some point, because they went as far as to ban my ip from their forums. The problem was that my ip was my university's ip, and they sent a complaint to the ISP (my university). So I almost got trouble with the administration.

    But yeah, I will edit the swearing. My bad.

  25. #55
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    No problem.

  26. #56
    Member Member wangchang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Yep I edited.

    Back on topic : are you guys going to remind CA to come and check your mod to get inspiration (especially on the celt /german)? I know they know your mod, but a little remainder wouldn't hurt :).

    PS : Do you guys know some administrators on the TWcenter forums? Maybe you could try to explain my situation to them? I already tried to contact them but they ignored all my mails :(
    Thanks. :)

  27. #57
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Why do you keep saying the same stuff in post after post? Various people from the team have replied with their answers; they have been negative about contacting CA each time.
    As for getting your IP banned, you shouldn't have been using it from your university. On top of that you were in the wrong for making new accounts each time and getting successively banned. You should have got the point after the first 2 bans. Blaming it on your brother doesn't excuse anything.
    Completed Campaigns:
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    Qart'Hadarst EB 1.2 / Hai EB 1.2
    Current Campiagns:
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    donated by Brennus for attention to detail.

  28. #58
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    Quote Originally Posted by wangchang View Post
    Yep I edited.

    Back on topic : are you guys going to remind CA to come and check your mod to get inspiration (especially on the celt /german)? I know they know your mod, but a little remainder wouldn't hurt :).
    Short answer - No.

    Slightly longer answer - we think our work stands on its own and we know CA are aware of it, and its purpose.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    Member thankful for this post:

    Hax 


  29. #59
    Member Member moonburn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    maybe rometotalwar2 will have 3 game modes one where you are the general (like in a 3d gta kind of world ) we can always call it lifeaction report one where there is vanilla and the regular vanilla game and one called eb historical accuracy (where all the people can nitpick about a unit using straw hats instead of a phrygian cap )

  30. #60

    Default Re: Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

    I shall await EB 2 far more happily than Rome 2. Sorry but the amount the historical detail needed to do EB 1(.2) was NEVER going to be a 'commercial hit' as it were. For sure it's a better game by miles and historically alot closer to realism but by going into such detail (which is fine for wierdos like me) you alienate the mass market. Perhaps CD Project Red who did an excellent job with Witcher 2 and the EB team could get together and give us a complete game as it should be of the rise of Rome and Diadochi wars. I know... dream on I suppose but I do have shares in CD Project Red (I am half Polish).

    Rome 2 will be another update of Rome 1 with added bits of naval battles taken from Empire and Nappy etc, on a larger map and with a few new add-ons they've been working on for whatever they chose next. It will be another mass market aimed game with options to play on those awful 'gaming machines'. Any serious gamer KNOWS you need a pc specifically designed for games to beat the system, particularly in a long strategy game. It is not a 'sitting on the sofa' affair and absorbs your every particle of grey matter if you want to crash them out. This, I hope, is what we get from EB 2 and not the mass market dross for those with little understanding of history or reality which is where Rome 2 will aim.
    Last edited by SoFarSoGood; 07-16-2012 at 22:21.

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