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Thread: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

  1. #91
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JMRC View Post
    Almost there.
    It wouldn't be fun if we tell all the starting positions accurately. It would spoil the pleasure of discovery.
    Err, oops :p



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  2. #92
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    From screenies we've seen it looks like the Ptolemioi also start with Halicarnassus and Ephesus unless of course the team showed those screens from a few years in. Also, wonder if Baktria shouldn't get the province directly north, Oxiana I believe it is?

    EDIT: Also, did the team consider making Gedrosia part of Eremos and adding another province elsewhere? It always seemed to me to be a very sparsely populated and more or less worthless area. That being said, I've never really read much about Gedrosia outside of Alexander's conquests and passing mentions in Seleucid and Persian histories.
    Last edited by Brave Brave Sir Robin; 04-02-2013 at 22:58.
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  3. #93
    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by M to the A View Post
    So would these be the starting positions? Anything should be different?
    Nabatu start in Edom, and I believe all the other responses are accurate too, based on screenshots. Also, I think the Arverni start in Aruernselua, while the Aedui start in Talaeduio. I personally suspect the Boii will only start with Boiotergion, but I could very well be wrong.

  4. #94
    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Also don't think Epirus starts with Dalmatia, at least not in EB1.

  5. #95

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Did we not have a community map progression thread? posting it there might be a good idea so people who are looking for it will have less of a hard time finding it :)
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  6. #96
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JMRC View Post
    Almost there.
    It wouldn't be fun if we tell all the starting positions accurately. It would spoil the pleasure of discovery.
    What pleasure of discovery? I think that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm as supportive of this project as anyone here, but any sense of anticipation has long since ebbed away to nothing. Releasing snippets and breadcrumbs doesn't keep people keen, not after this length of time, it's more like an insulting attempt to string people along just a little bit longer.

    It's not just here, either, I've seen other sorts of projects in other arenas take this same sort of approach and I really don't understand it. We can see the results of that with the way the main fora have pretty much died, compared to a few years ago. There's been a massive die-off in terms of interest, I'm sure a lot of people have forgotten about EB2 altogether, or dismissed it as vaporware.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-03-2013 at 23:28.
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  7. #97
    RABO! Member Brave Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    What pleasure of discovery? I think that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm as supportive of this project as anyone here, but any sense of anticipation has long since ebbed away to nothing. Releasing snippets and breadcrumbs doesn't keep people keen, not after this length of time, it's more like an insulting attempt to string people along just a little bit longer.

    It's not just here, either, I've seen other sorts of projects in other arenas take this same sort of approach and I really don't understand it. We can see the results of that with the way the main fora have pretty much died, compared to a few years ago. There's been a massive die-off in terms of interest, I'm sure a lot of people have forgotten about EB2 altogether, or dismissed it as vaporware.
    I don't think this is fair to the team Quintus. There have clearly been some delays and setbacks (ie change in project lead), of that I am sure. But in reality, its a little harsh to non-constructively criticize a group of people who are devoting part of their leisure time to create something which other people may play for free.

    I personally would rather have snippets here and there to see that progress has indeed been made on the project, although if the presentation of this info comes at the price of slowing progress on the project itself, I would prefer that more time be spent on development instead.

    As far as activity on the fora goes, RTW is how old? Almost 10 years I believe. And EB was never a "mass appeal" mod to begin with. To expect many people to still be playing the mod after 3 new Total War games have been released is a little optimistic. I still play, but to be honest, it was the MP aspect that pulled me back after a hiatus. It is tough to attract new players to an old game.
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  8. #98
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin View Post
    I don't think this is fair to the team Quintus. There have clearly been some delays and setbacks (ie change in project lead), of that I am sure. But in reality, its a little harsh to non-constructively criticize a group of people who are devoting part of their leisure time to create something which other people may play for free.

    I personally would rather have snippets here and there to see that progress has indeed been made on the project, although if the presentation of this info comes at the price of slowing progress on the project itself, I would prefer that more time be spent on development instead.

    As far as activity on the fora goes, RTW is how old? Almost 10 years I believe. And EB was never a "mass appeal" mod to begin with. To expect many people to still be playing the mod after 3 new Total War games have been released is a little optimistic. I still play, but to be honest, it was the MP aspect that pulled me back after a hiatus. It is tough to attract new players to an old game.
    I'm criticising the approach to communication; secrecy mixed with coy in-jokes and occasional misinformation. You don't need formal previews to be straight with people and give realistic expectations as to what's going on. All we need is a paragraph or two every now and then saying what's going on, and roughly what the activities left to complete are. Maybe even a tracker, "we're 60% of the way to completion" or something like that.

    Delays and setbacks happen, that's life. What there is a serious failure of here is expectation management - because essentially there isn't any. It's just the same old "it'll be ready when it's done" and occasionally throwing out a preview.

    EDIT: And so this isn't just some negativity, if the team want someone to do the forum-liason bit, telling people what's going on behind the scenes and responding to all the usual questions, I'd be willing to do that. I spend more than enough time on various fora just chatting about stuff to be able to devote some to doing something more focused here.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-04-2013 at 11:50.
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    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  9. #99

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quintus Sertorius, would a tracker of the sort you describe serve any real use? What is 60% of a project that can be expected to change in scope? New opportunities/challenges change the definition of what a 100% ready first release would be. A year ago you could expect medieval buildings in place for the foreseable future, now people are (happily) arguing about high status gallic buildings.

    You might know what you expect to comprise a first release and plan your project around that, but big changes can and have taken place that make any statement other than "when it is done" a dishonest one.
    There is a twitter feed that does post short notes on what is happening in the team. The last post was 2 days ago and the one before was only 2 weeks before that.

    Formal previews can attract help in areas the team need to finish the job, as well as court would be players. That alone is worth supporting their use.

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  10. #100
    Member Member M to the A's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Alrighty then, is this better?


    ugh
    Last edited by M to the A; 04-04-2013 at 19:38.
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  11. #101
    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Looks good except for one thing: I think you had Gandhara right the first time, with only two northern provinces. Though, if I understand the set-up correctly, they'll be representing a satrapy of the larger Indian empire, so the whole region may be under one faction, with some sort of split/rebellion occurring later in the campaign ... But the screenshots indicate what your first map showed.
    Last edited by B-Wing; 04-04-2013 at 19:24.

  12. #102

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    also it is not "proven" that Baktria has the northern region aswell and Boii have only one region. But I think it's ok.
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  13. #103
    Member Member M to the A's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Oh well, I just want to get somewhat of a picture what the campaign map will look like, don't think the Volcae were part of the Boii anyways. What are these Saami living in Oxeiane though?
    Last edited by M to the A; 04-04-2013 at 19:59.
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  14. #104

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JMRC View Post
    Not at all. All those PSFs will have non-siege battles. Imagine them as settlements that the armies will move against, but then clash in a open field.

    The big advantage of this is that now you can have "real" battles. Instead of having small-size stacks roaming the campaign map, we can make the AI consolidate in these positions, so when the players attack them, he will face enormous armies in a open battlefield.
    Interesting, but if the AI will consolidate to the PSFs, won't that make the AI very defensive or will they just gather their armies at the PSF and then roll on?
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  15. #105
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    As Brave Brave Sir Robin kindly pointed out, EBII is a labour of love. All of us are volunteers. Some of us are fortunate enough to be employed in professions which are directly related to their work on EBII, the rest of us make do with the jobs we have (I write this whilst wearing my supermarket uniform, my shift finished 30 min ago). Also, as we are a volunteer group we cannot hold team members accountable when they leave or go AWOL. This has been a major problem this year, indeed when the Arevaci preview was prepared it was a distress preview if you can call it that; we had lost so many older members that it didn't seem likely that EBII would be able to continue. However since then we have managed to attract some extremely dedicated members (I cannot thank @V.T. Marvin and @Saldunz enough for their tireless programming efforts, and the same goes for long time programmer @Tellos Athenaios) also many of our historians took on more work than they were initially asked to do (for example I began as an advisor on Celtic religion, now I am responsible for the Boii, Pritanoi, Aedui, Arverni, Arevaci and if I can get some good literature the Lusotannan will hopefully be added to this list as well).

    As Maeran pointed out our plans also change. This time last year we never expected we would be able to have barbarian buildings, we may also be able to have other cultures buildings if we manage to work out some personnel and collaboration problems. Likewise we are hoping to secure new music for EBII. Some aspects of our plan, such as coding for traits and ethnicities or creating new units, will always remain the same. But the team is always on the lookout for new things which we can add for the fans.

    However, QuintusSertorius does have some valid points regarding our fan relations. The old approach of releasing a large preview every 6 months, although it generated a lot of excitement, was not the best approach. Hence we have the Twitter account (which we attempt to update at least once a fortnight, if not more frequently, and the Developer Blog). Would you guys be interested in a "An interview with...." sort of series or perhaps a bi-monthly mini-preview of a new feature of EBII? For example the new religion system?

    I will also have a word with the team and see if we can't release a statement saying how far along we are with the mod so you can get an idea of how things are going.

    I should also add, even if you guys are not members of the team you can still help us to help you; if you know programmers, coders, artists (both 2D and 3D) or specialist historians (Lusotannan, Numidians and Arab factions are currently short on historians) please tell them about our mod and see if they would be interested in helping us.

    Finally I would like to say, on behalf of everyone in the team, past and present (and very hopefully future too) Thank you for sticking with us for so long! We couldn't ask for a more loyal fanbase.



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  16. #106

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Thank you Brennus for your post I must say I'm touched after reading it, that there are people like you and other members of EB team who have so much love and passion for something and are willing to share it with others. Thank you EB team! I wish you that you all will always have this passion in your lives with you! I cannot speak for whole community but I can wait for this mod another 5 years (Im lurker for more than 5 years now and check the page everyday).
    My girlfriend plays EB (plus she is hottie). I won the universe.

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  17. #107
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    It's funny, immediately after I posted that, I had another look at the Dev Blog thread itself (ie the one this thread is for discussion of) and the first post had a very good summary of where things were up to 18 months or so ago. It's notable that nothing has been posted there for months, possibly because of the effort required to put a preview together that's consistent with the ones already in there. Now I'm not asking for a weekly update on that whole list in the first post, but maybe a monthly summary of the change highlights. Not more than a paragraph or two, or a few bulleted lists saying "here's the major things we accomplished this month".

    I appreciate there's the Twitter feed, but not only is it possible people aren't following it (I don't have a Twitter account, personally), but it isn't really collected/compiled/constructed into something meaningful. If anything the disconnect is that you've got another source of information that, barring the occasional post in the Twitter thread, isn't making its way back here. Again, I'm personally less interested in previews (I got the one I was most keen on - Pergamon - right at the start), especially if the creation of them takes people out of working on the mod, but summaries of what's been going on help build confidence that the momentum is being maintained. That's not to say mini-previews won't interest other people, especially if they're frequent enough to start generating that buzz we used to have around here.

    Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting the team rush this or anything like that. I've waited this long and can continue waiting (I'm a father now, which I wasn't back in 2007/8 when I was first playing EB1, I barely notice the days going by any more!) because I know the finished product will have been worth it. I'm relieved that the team have managed to get it back on track and are so dedicated to that vision. Hell, some of the delays have been through adding even more richness to the experience, who can complain about that?
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-04-2013 at 21:52.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  18. #108

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Well since I am mentioned I thought I'd clarify:

    We have basically two kinds of "programmers". Those who do useful work on the mod itself. And me.

    Me, I sort of run the tools department. The tools are about replacing the game itself for creating various binary blobs that the mod needs, wherever possible. Well that's not quite true. What the tools really are about is two things:

    • Make sure that the mod actually will work out of the box when it is installed.
    • Pruning and refining the mod so we apply as much of the tools (and resulting binary blobs) during development as well. This causes the team both joy and grief: joy when it works (far better than the game engine and bugs get caught), grief when bugs in the tools mess up the workflow. This is also about eliminating old cruft from the mod which we no longer use (or should use).


    If that all pans out according to plan, the idea is that you can install the mod and get something quite close to installing an official expansion package instead of a copy of a development tree snapshot. Which should hopefully mean that the mod works out of the box, and installation is reasonably fool proof.

    Now there are currently two big obstacles in this path (quite possibly more but right now these two are so big they kind of obscure any other ones that exist as well). One is in the form of a bunch of bytes from a largely reverse-engineered CAS (animation) file format as part of the animation packs used by M2TW. The other is the format of the skeletons in the skeleton packs, which is largely (if not almost entirely) unknown stuff.

    So what am I working on when I have the time? On improvements to the existing tools to speed up building of the binary blobs (and also to make building an installer easier).
    - Tellos Athenaios
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  19. #109

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    I just dug out some of my EB1 saves from a few years ago and played a bit and immediately got back into that EB feeling. It will always be one of my absolute favourites, I had so many great hours playing this game. Thanks for that.
    I check this forum every few months for news about EB2 and I have to say it is really amazing that you guys have managed to keep this going. I haven't posted anything in recent years, but I'm really looking forward to play EB2 whenever it's ready. It must be really difficult to manage a project of volunteers, who have real lives and real jobs, over such a long time, I admire your dedication. So don't get upset when people complain about waiting or lack of updates, every progress is quite an achievement and when there is a release some day, I'm gonna feel the same childlike excitement I felt when EB 1.0 was released: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...RE!&highlight=
    I'm a bit more patient nowadays and check only every few months instead of seconds, but I still do appreciate your work very much, EB team!

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  20. #110

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    More frequent but smaller updates is the way to go IMO. That way, the community knows that progress is being made and can comment on the presented features. Personally, I'm most interested in the new gameplay elements. New units are great, but pretty much every mod has them. EB1 had some great new stuff that made the game challenging and flavourful and I hope to see sth similar in EB2. RTW Vanilla was very bland by comparison.

    The good thing about smaller updates is that they are not as time-consuming as standard EB previews. Besides, I think that the team members would like to read what other users think about the stuff that has been made so far.

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  21. #111
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    • Make sure that the mod actually will work out of the box when it is installed.
    Aha, so there will be a boxed version.
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  22. #112

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Just to say I've been really enjoying the interviews!



  23. #113

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Indeed. Very informative and entertaining. Who is next?

  24. #114

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Tux
    Salveas!

    As you all may have noticed we have stopped previewing our factions, that is because we are close to a release and also because we have covered most of them.
    And for that reason we have decided to change other areas of the game which weren't previously planned for the first release, like the climates.

    The climates suffered various changes, like new terrain textures, grass textures(with vegetation specific to the climate), geography changes(vegetation density, mountains and hills distribution, etc.) and in some cases even new vegetation.

    First I will show a comparison with some of the vanilla climates and later I will continue covering(via eye-candy) the climates that you'll see in EB2.
    So brace yourselves, image heavy
    INCREDIBELICIOUSTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



  25. #115

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    New textures and models!!!

    How!?!?!?

    Why you no tell us?????
    Lets play Divide et Impera, Ptolemy Campaign. Link to full playlist down below!

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  26. #116
    Bored Member Tux's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman View Post
    New textures and models!!!

    How!?!?!?

    Why you no tell us?????
    Christmas surprise! :P

  27. #117

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    pretty cool but we still need the preview with the boii and the arevaci most elitist and aristocratic units i believe and ofc the 3rd roman preview (i like to see what i will be killing in droves thanks )

  28. #118
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    pretty cool but we still need the preview with the boii and the arevaci most elitist and aristocratic units i believe and ofc the 3rd roman preview (i like to see what i will be killing in droves thanks )
    All the Boii and Arevaci units have been previewed. If we produce more previews we will have to push back the first release date again.



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  29. #119

    Default Re: EB2 Dev Blog discussion

    Awesomeness!!!


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