What civilization has the worst unit roster in your opinion.

[Catmand0]

I am going to put my vote in for the saba. They have no effective heavy cav, extremely limited heavy infantry, and only native hellenic pikemen. Their whole unit roster has not one apparent strength. I will admit that I have only played with them in the multiplayer battles and never their campaign, so I do not know if their short comings are made up for other ways. However, I have fought them in my Macedonian campaign and my roman campaign, where they preformed horribly.

[mikepettyrtw]

I am going to put my vote in for the saba. They have no effective heavy cav, extremely limited heavy infantry, and only native hellenic pikemen. Their whole unit roster has not one apparent strength. I will admit that I have only played with them in the multiplayer battles and never their campaign, so I do not know if their short comings are made up for other ways. However, I have fought them in my Macedonian campaign and my roman campaign, where they preformed horribly.

If you want to play as Saba, master this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid

Khalid turned those skirmishing tactics into something that could be used anywhere. Thus he would skirmish the enemy to death: he would bring his army in front of his enemies and wait until the whole battle degenerated into a skirmishing affair between small units. Then, after exhausting the enemy units, he would launch his cavalry at their flanks employing Hammer and Anvil tactics.[116]
Much of Khalid's strategic and tactical genius lies in his use of extreme methods. He apparently put more emphasis on annihilating enemy troops, rather than achieving victory by simply defeating them. For instance his employment of the double envelopment maneuver against the numerically superior Persian army at the Battle of Walaja,[117] and his brilliant maneuver at the Battle of Yarmouk where he virtually trapped the Byzantine army between three steep ravines by stealthily capturing their only escape route, a bridge, at their rear.
Khalid utilized his better understanding of terrain in every possible way to gain strategic superiority over his enemies. During his Persian campaigns, he initially never entered deep into Persian territory and always kept the Arabian desert at his rear, allowing his forces to retreat there in case of a defeat.[118] It was only after all the strong Persian and Persian-allied forces were routed that he penetrated deep into Euphrates region and captured the regional capital of Iraq, Al-Hira. Again, at Yarmouk, the terrain would help him in executing his grand strategy of annihilating the Byzantines.
In their mobility, Khalid's troops had no match until the Mongol hordes of the 13th century.[119] In fact the tactics of the desert Arabs and steppe Mongols were somewhat identical. Entire troops of Khalid would ride on camels while on march, whereas the Mongols used horses, with the difference that the Arabs did not make use of mounted archers.[120] His most commonly used maneuver was surprise attack, also apparently his favorite one. Some of the most brilliant surprise attacks of Khalid were his night attacks from three different sides on Persian camps at Zumail, Muzayyah and Saniyy, his highly mobile army successfully maneuvering in a 100 km area, quickly destroying encampments of the Persians and their Arab allies. The Battle of Maraj-al-Debaj being no exception, where once again his highly mobile army maneuvered around a Byzantine army, appearing from four directions and opening several fronts at a time, a maneuver which later in 13th century became one of the Mongol armies' principal maneuvers.[121]
An example of Khalid's strategic maneuverability was his advance into Roman Syria.[122] Emperor Heraclius had sent all his available garrisoned troops into Syria, towards Ajnadayn, to hold the Muslim troops at the Syria-Arabia border region. The possible route of any Muslim reinforcement was expected to be the conventional Syria-Arabia road in the south, but Khalid, who was then in Iraq, took the most unexpected route: marching through the waterless Syrian desert, to the surprise of the Byzantines, he appeared in northern Syria. Catching the Byzantines off guard, he quickly captured several towns, virtually cutting off the communications of the Byzantine army at Ajnadayn with its high command at Emesa, where emperor Heraclius himself resided.[123]
Khalid's elite light cavalry, the Mobile guard, acted as the core of the Muslim cavalry during the invasion of Syria. It was composed of highly trained and seasoned soldiers, the majority of whom had been under Khalid's standard during his Arabian and Persian campaigns.[124] Muslim cavalry was a light cavalry force armed with 5 meter long lances. They could charge at an incredible speed and would usually employ a common tactic of Kar wa far literary meaning "engage-disengage", or in modern term: “hit-and-run.” They would charge on enemy flanks and rear, their maneuverability making them very effective against heavily armored Byzantine and Sassanid cataphracts.[116] Khalid's famous flanking charge on the final day of the Battle of Yarmouk stands as testimony to just how well he understood the potentials and strengths of his mounted troops.

PLUS....I believe Saba can recruit both Indian and African Elephants as well. I have Sweboz game going now, and in comparison, I would say Sweboz has a weaker roster IF you let Arverni and Aedui sit and grow massive. BUT, as Sweboz you need 6 or 7 FM per army, who have fantastic infantry BG to make up for limited roster. Sweboz economy in VH camp is horrible bad, which is why, I have a rule that if your starting position has 3 cities or fewer, then H camp. As Sweboz you can send any army running because of the monstrous charisma of your FM. One problem is if the enemy has Gesaitai (sp), which I have never successfully routed in my entire EB history.

[Marcus Darkstar]

I have Sweboz game going now, and in comparison, I would say Sweboz has a weaker roster

i would agree with that. In my current romani game the Sweboz died not due to war but due to their own ineptitude, all their family died. it was thanks to the habit of my EB game rebels venturing out of their cities leaving mostly the rebel FM in place but having rebel stacks roam the countryside.

Now i have no Germanic faction to worry about in the late game or a threat to my entire northern flank unless some gaulish faction ventures into germania.

[seleucid empire]

The Sweboz roster is not "weaker". I think its just more limited. Sweboz armies are very strong and In forests its like impossible to completely rout them

[mikepettyrtw]

The Sweboz roster is not "weaker". I think its just more limited. Sweboz armies are very strong and In forests its like impossible to completely rout them

I respectfully disagree, I just attempted Khalid Ibn al-Walid's tactics in a custom battle against Pontus that included their Chalkaspides, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Pontic Thorakitai, Persian Hoplites and their BG Cav. I was outnumbered badly as well; I think it was something like 1700 (me) vs 2500 (Pontus). I used only Arabian Light Cav(3 units), Arabian light Inf(4 units IIRC), Sabean Medium Cav (1 unit), I BG and 2 Sabean noble inf plus 2 slingers. No units started the battle with chevrons. I only took roughly 600 casualties. The map was the same for both sides. I used no Elephants even though that's Saba's coup de main.
As Sweboz, such a thing would be impossible without plenty of FM BG or gold chevrons and possibly limited recruitment zone fright Inf and loads of clubbmen. I know so because I have tried it before in custom battles. If one brings lots of clubbmen amd chevron'd FM BG, then all but those on the steppe need to take notice. But that's it for Sweboz. No ele's, no monster cav, no superior skirmisher troops; almost everything Sweboz has can be matched or exceeded by their Gallic Neighbors. Gaesatae and Botaroas/Botraos along with the plethora of other Heavy Infantry the Gauls have, in combo with Brihentin FM BG will destroy a Sweboz army, even with clubbman and FM.
However, Sweboz army's with lots of FM, or post Reform (reform is VERY late game IMO), with lots of EXP could do the defeat an identical Pontic army with similar post battle stats. Indeed those clubbmen are monster anti-roman battering rams. But that's at enormous cost: if you loose a major battle with all those FM in it, one risks their entire campaign, no matter how many chevrons you get. But that amongst other things, makes the Sweboz campaign exilerating fun.
In conclusion, I did not say their army's fighting ability was weak, but rather their roster was weakest considering context (Saba, Arverni, Aedui)

[seleucid empire]

I respectfully disagree, I just attempted Khalid Ibn al-Walid's tactics in a custom battle against Pontus that included their Chalkaspides, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Pontic Thorakitai, Persian Hoplites and their BG Cav. I was outnumbered badly as well; I think it was something like 1700 (me) vs 2500 (Pontus). I used only Arabian Light Cav(3 units), Arabian light Inf(4 units IIRC), Sabean Medium Cav (1 unit), I BG and 2 Sabean noble inf plus 2 slingers. No units started the battle with chevrons. I only took roughly 600 casualties. The map was the same for both sides. I used no Elephants even though that's Saba's coup de main.
As Sweboz, such a thing would be impossible without plenty of FM BG or gold chevrons and possibly limited recruitment zone fright Inf and loads of clubbmen. I know so because I have tried it before in custom battles. If one brings lots of clubbmen amd chevron'd FM BG, then all but those on the steppe need to take notice. But that's it for Sweboz. No ele's, no monster cav, no superior skirmisher troops; almost everything Sweboz has can be matched or exceeded by their Gallic Neighbors. Gaesatae and Botaroas/Botraos along with the plethora of other Heavy Infantry the Gauls have, in combo with Brihentin FM BG will destroy a Sweboz army, even with clubbman and FM.
However, Sweboz army's with lots of FM, or post Reform (reform is VERY late game IMO), with lots of EXP could do the defeat an identical Pontic army with similar post battle stats. Indeed those clubbmen are monster anti-roman battering rams. But that's at enormous cost: if you loose a major battle with all those FM in it, one risks their entire campaign, no matter how many chevrons you get. But that amongst other things, makes the Sweboz campaign exilerating fun.
In conclusion, I did not say their army's fighting ability was weak, but rather their roster was weakest considering context (Saba, Arverni, Aedui)

I disagree, the sweboz army have huge morale advantage compared to saba. I notice in your battle that you gave yourself 4 units of cavalry while the enemy only had a bg unit. If you look at it that way, of course it will not be too hard since your infantry units are faster and have more stamina.

I will attempt to do the same thing as you except with Sweboz and this time i will give the pontics more cavalry. You gave yourself 2 units of Sabaen nobles so I will give myself a unit of germanic heavy infantry since in campaigns they are available before the reforms as mercenaries.

[seleucid empire]

anndd...heres the proof. This battle was almost too easy. I didnt even micro that much. Swebox units just dont break unlike Saba. If i Had bothered to micro more, my casualties would be around 3-400 I would guess








see no chevrons on my units and only ONE bodyguard unit with NO chevs. If I had 6-7 with lots of exp like you suggested, that would be enough to wipe out an army twice the size of the one i played against. Even If i didnt add in that unit of heavy german infantry and replaced it with something else, that victory would still have been an absolute breeze.

One more thing, this was on open ground where the pontic cavalry could have done some real damage to me. In the forests, it would have been a joke of a battle

[kidpacific]

I have finished all faction campaigns at least once and i am going to prefer Swboz；
The sweboz units get bonus in forest and can access to high exp units, but the roster is rather limited.Compared to Saba( can recurit Arabian archer-spearmen, a very good low-tier multifunctional ranged unit, which has a longer range than sabean archer), Sweboz factional units is lack of good ranged units(long range/large ammo archer). In my experience, the ranged units are more reliable assault force in battle H/VH campaign( ai receive attack/defencer bonus), for the reason that the ranged unit is not influenced by the defence skill. And in foreign MIC, the saba can recuirit Hellenic native phalanx which is the highest PPR(Performance to Price Ratio) line infantry in my opinion.

[seleucid empire]

i think we're talking about faction rosters only.

And consider that Sweboz is surrounded by factions that suit its fighting style. Saba is surrounded by two factions which have a completely different fighting style and loads of better infantry and cavalry. Saba's roster doesn't really counter its neighbours all that well unless you do an Arabian light cavalry spam (which in campaign, you wont be able to afford)

[seleucid empire]

Saba( can recurit Arabian archer-spearmen, a very good low-tier multifunctional ranged unit, which has a longer range than sabean archer), Sweboz factional units is lack of good ranged units(long range/large ammo archer). In my experience, the ranged units are more reliable assault force in battle H/VH campaign( ai receive attack/defencer bonus), for the reason that the ranged unit is not influenced by the defence skill..

you probably didn't use all of the units then. sweboz have archer spearmen: Medjīnīkōs (Baltic Frontiersmen), the best archer spearmen in the game with the longest range i believe

[kidpacific]

Yes , Baltic one is also good, but it's not a factional unit, most factions in EB can recruit it, including saba. And the arabian one is a saba factional unit, only saba can recruit it. no other faction can recruit it.
Moreover, the saba can recruit arabian one in the 1st turn of the campain, and the sweboz can't access to the region which can recruit Baltic one at least near 20 turns.
And the range of Baltic Frontiersmen is shorter than arabian archer-spearmen, you can check it in edu.
The range of the arabian one is 196 , while range of Baltic one is 187.

[kidpacific]

i think we're talking about faction rosters only.

And consider that Sweboz is surrounded by factions that suit its fighting style. Saba is surrounded by two factions which have a completely different fighting style and loads of better infantry and cavalry. Saba's roster doesn't really counter its neighbours all that well unless you do an Arabian light cavalry spam (which in campaign, you wont be able to afford)

Ok, focus on factional unit roster. I think , compared to the sweboz one, the sabean one has an evident ranged unit advantage, and a little stamina advantage ( most of sabean factional units have very_hardy attribute, while little sweboz units have this attribute), a little disadvantage on support infantry, a little disadvantage on heavy cavalry because of 190BC sweboz reform.
Consider the neighbors, the sweboz is surronded by galic factions, romani. I think the difference between the galic style(high attack/low defence infantry) and the roman style(low attack/high defence infantry) is much more larger than the style difference between two diadochi kindoms, the AS and the Ptolemy.

[seleucid empire]

Yes , Baltic one is also good, but it's not a factional unit, most factions in EB can recruit it, including saba. And the arabian one is a saba factional unit, only saba can recruit it. no other faction can recruit it.
Moreover, the saba can recruit arabian one in the 1st turn of the campain, and the sweboz can't access to the region which can recruit Baltic one at least near 20 turns.
And the range of Baltic Frontiersmen is shorter than arabian archer-spearmen, you can check it in edu.
The range of the arabian one is 196 , while range of Baltic one is 187.

I was not aware that it had a shorter range. In any case, the baltics have the hardy trait and the Arabians dont. It also has higher attack attack and defence and a morale value of 11 compared to the Arabians who only have 9. That means it actually has a chance to hold the enemy in melee for a while. Whenever I use Arabians in melee they don't buy me much time at all.

Also the twenty turn thing doesn't matter as much since the first few years of a sweboz campaign, you're fighting in the densist forests in the whole map where archers aren't worth squat.

[kidpacific]

The Arabians dont have hardy attribute but have a very_hardy attribute.
Let's focus on the factional unit. The arabian one is a factional unit, and the baltic is not.
I don't think the twenty turn thing doesn't matter. In a sweboz campaign , because the poor economy fall in debt from the 2nd turn, the troops recruited in the recurit line in the 1st turn is quiet important. In the first few years of a sweboz campaign, we're assaulting cities in most time. Considering the low-armor/high melee attack slave units in the near reigions, the ranged units is really useful, especially in VH/VH campaigns. In my VH/VH huge scale campaignes, i lost no more than 100 men( most time near 50 men) per slave city in sabean campaign because of the long range of arabian archer-spearmen, while in sweboz campaign lost nearly 200-300 men per slave city because of the lack of good ranged unit. I think if i can recurit a good archer in 1st turn( i can only recurit 4 skirmisheres to instead), i can highly reduce the lost .

[seleucid empire]

let's focus on the factional unit. The arabian one is a factional unit, and the baltic is not.
I don't think the twenty turn thing doesn't matter. In a sweboz campaign , because the poor economy fall in debt since the 2nd turn, the troops recruited in the 1st turn is quiet important. In the first few years of a sweboz campaign, we're assaulting cities in most time. Considering the low-armor/high melee attack slave units in the near reigions, the ranged units is really useful, especially in VH/VH campaigns. In my VH/VH huge scale campaignes, i lost no more than 100 men( most time near 50 men) per slave city in sabean campaign because of the long range of arabian archer-spearmen, while in sweboz campaign lost nearly 200-300 men per slave city because of the lack of good ranged unit. I think if i can recurit the baltic one in 1st turn( i can only recurit skirmisher to instead), i can highly reduce the lost .

Ok I understand that since I lose a lot of men in my early sweboz campaign as well. However, in my Saba campaigns, I never assault the first three ctities anyway because the spy has never ever opened the gates for me ever (I don't think it's skilled enough that early in the game). As soon as you attack the city they Sally out since their garrison will always be bigger than your starting army.

Even if the Baltic archers were available from turn 1 how many could you afford? You will have to wait extra turns for them to train and meet up with your army which means you will lose more money anyway. 1-2 units won't conquer a sweboz city on VH with only 100 casualties unless of course your using arcade mode =.= which is exploiting very heavily

Apart from that, this thread isn't just about which faction has the best start, it's about which faction has the best roster. The sweboz roster may not look as exotic as the Saba one but they will rip through anything in europe. The Saba one can barely stand up to its neighbours. And that I think is what REALLY counts

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

In MP (which may or may not factor into your discussion) we consider Saba the universal observing faction. Yes, it is certainly possible to win battles with them but certainly challenging. Sweboz are similarly lightly armored but have much higher morale across the board and have longsword and ap units. The Saba have no longsword units besides their bodyguards who are weaker than the Sweboz ones and the only AP unit they have are Red Sea Axemen who are pretty terrible.

[kidpacific]

Maybe my army is different from urs in saba campaign. In my saba campaign, i disband all the starting units and recurit arabian archer-spearmen, one unit/per turn. And i can recurit 7-8 archers before i run out the money. Then i can unit the south arabian and ethiopian easily, then, build the mines( the sabean can build the 2-level mines) and ports and recurit hellenic phalanx and then kick the Ptolemy easily.
There is a little tip for sweboz. You can click as many as possible units in the recurit series of the city to run out the mony in the first turn ( i'll destroy the tavern in captal to get bonus gold), for example, u can click 4 units in 1st turn, and then u can receive the 2nd unit in the 2nd turn, even if the money is less than zero, and so on. So, even sweboz, u can recurit 4 archer units if u have.
I think in rtw, the biggest advantage is players vs ai. And in the beginning, u can only access to the factional unit, and use these units to expand.Even for the most difficult factions in eb, if u can get through and expands well in the first 50 turn, and build up the economic, then, u can kick the ai easily. So the factional units in the beginning stage are vital. In the middle stage, u have a lot of money and a lot of foreign units to recurit, u can combine the factional units and the foreign units to form different army to face different enemies. So the importance of the factional units is reduced. Especially the factions with limited faction units recurited areas. Saba and sweboz are both such factions.

[seleucid empire]

The Arabians dont have hardy attribute but have a very_hardy attribute.

The archer spearman dont have that trait. It's not on the online units database.

Not even the Arabian light cavalry has that trait.

The only units I've seen with the very hardy trait are the Numidian cavalry and the gaesatae which are the best light cavalry and best heavy infantry in the game

[kidpacific]

U can check it in EDU
;358
type arabian missile northern arab levy
dictionary arabian_missile_northern_arab_levy ; Giusim Aravim Tsfonim
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier eastern_missile_eransahrarshtbara_northernarab, 40, 0, 0.95
mount_effect horse -2, elephant +1, chariot +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, very_hardy, can_swim
formation 1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 0, arrow, 196, 25, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 2, 9, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -2
stat_mental 9, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 842, 211, 149, 50, 842
ownership saba
In fact, most saba units have very_hardy trait.
the online units page also refers.
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...t&unit=arabian missile northern arab levy&text=Giusim &ownership=any&class=any&category=any

[seleucid empire]

Maybe my army is different from urs in saba campaign. In my saba campaign, i disband all the starting units and recurit arabian archer-spearmen, one unit/per turn. And i can recurit 7-8 archers before i run out the money. Then i can unit the south arabian and ethiopian easily, then, build the mines( the sabean can build the 2-level mines) and ports and recurit hellenic phalanx and then kick the Ptolemy easily.
There is a little tip for sweboz. You can click as many as possible units in the recurit series of the city to run out the mony in the first turn ( i'll destroy the tavern in captal to get bonus gold), for example, u can click 4 units in 1st turn, and then u can receive the 2nd unit in the 2nd turn, even if the money is less than zero, and so on. So, even sweboz, u can recurit 4 archer units if u have.
I think in rtw, the biggest advantage is players vs ai. And in the beginning, u can only access to the factional unit, and use these units to expand.Even for the most difficult factions in eb, if u can get through and expands well in the first 50 turn, and build up the economic, then, u can kick the ai easily. So the factional units in the beginning stage are vital. In the middle stage, u have a lot of money and a lot of foreign units to recurit, u can combine the factional units and the foreign units to form different army to face different enemies. So the importance of the factional units is reduced. Especially the factions with limited faction units recurited areas. Saba and sweboz are both such factions.

i que two units of arabian skirmishers. i use my starting army to attack carna straight away. They will always Sally at the end of the turn. I take around 100 casualties. I take the army tamane and do the same. I then go straight to sabata. And repeat. After that, my starting army is pretty much done. I disband and build mines ASAP and build an economy good enough to support a stack of 12-14 units. I take Axum and the ptolemies descend on you with 6 medium sized armies with heavy units. This is on hard. I can't imagine how bad it is on VH.

And your telling me that you build the level 2 mines in both ethipia as well as southern Arabia. I'm sorry but I find that very hard to believe. Even after turtling up in Arabia, it will be more than 100 turns before you can afford to get all three mines up and running and to build an army. that is assuming you dont unite the rest of south arabia. by that time, ptolemies will be so big that you will never get a foothold. As soon as you take Axum, they will hit you with endless stacks. And you said that you built up the mines in Axum and Meroe as well so you would have to defend that and it would need to be a fair sized army. So that's another 100 turns? And you can't even afford to sustain an army as well as to build. Sabaens economy is not that good.

So by 220 at best, you will be ready with a stack and maybe a half to attack Egypt. You will be facing thousands of phalanghites. Ptolemies are very fond of heavily armoured Galatians and kelrouch phalanghites.both of which absorb missiles like sponges. Brown coats are rubbish(not that you can really afford to have many) the only good units I've found are he factional cavalry and the levy spearman and he infantry still take staggering losses without expliotation. And you said you were playing VH/VH and that you could kick them easily

[kidpacific]

i've played VH/VH saba campaignes for 3 times and need't to cheat on such things. Since u only played with them in the multiplayer battles and never their campaign yesterday, i suggest play longer to say impossible.
I just say saba can build lv 2 mine, but i haven't say i build all lv2 mines before i build up the army. it's difficult to take axum and meroe before 30 turns. By the time of 30 turns, slave have built lv1 mines for most time.and then we build lv1 mine in carna. Then, build lv2 mine in carna and meroe. I finish these things in no more than 80 turns.
And now ,the economy can afford 2 full lower-tier stacks( fm, archers, slingers, javelin, phalanx, light,cavalry).And it's easy to kick ai ptolemy's phalanx stack with such army, even in VH battle.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Lets just admit that its ridiculously easy to destroy AI armies using lots of ranged units. The AI does not prove a sufficient challenge in this regard.

The question is which faction has the worst unit roster, not which has the more difficult starting scenario. The question needs to be asked in a vacuum in order to be answered properly. The best/most useful Sabaic units are the bodyguard infantry (by far) the noble spearmen, arabian archer-spearmen, and levy spearmen. If I had to pick cavalry with them I'd be tempted just to go with Arabian light cavalry since it is so much cheaper than Sabaen Medium Cavalry and the Sabaen Mediums get torn to shreds by most other cavalry of the same price.

The best Sweboz units are the bodyguard infantry (naturally), the Germanic Heavy Infantry and Heavy cavalry, Germanic and Cherusci swords, Dugundiz, and Sloxonez. I generally don't factor Bastarnae in because that tribe is so far removed from Sweboz territory that they are more of a Getic unit. In a straight up fight there is no way that Sabaen Noble infantry and levy spears will stand up to longswordsmen, especially ones with such tight formations and high morale as the Germanic ones. Cavalry I'd give a slight edge to the Germans as well, its only in ranged units that I'd give the edge to the Saba. That means a lot against silly AI which wanders units around in missile range but against a competent opponent who would quickly close, it matters much less.

[seleucid empire]

i've played VH/VH saba campaignes for 3 times and need't to cheat on such things. Since u only played with them in the multiplayer battles and never their campaign yesterday, i suggest play longer to say impossible.

I have played close to 10 sabaen campaigns for your information. 1 of them I actually nearly finished all the victory conditions. I know how hard it is so please don't just assume that I haven't played one and don't know what I'm talking about. The reason I gave up 9 of the campaigns was precisely because it was difficult and I incurred many losses fighting ptolemies on one side and arche Seleucids attacking homna on the other side.

Oh and btw, you said on one hand that the sweboz roster is limited and on the other hand you said you used 7-8 units of archer spearman ONLY to unite Arabia and Axum. That seems rather limited to me. You kinda contradicted yourself there mate

[seleucid empire]

And I wasn't suggesting that you cheated. I was saying I find it hard to believe how easy you made it sound and that I find it hard to believe that you had an easy time after turtling up. I've trued that. It took me forever to build those mines. even then, i can only afford a stack of average troops to attack Axum and Egypt

Your only real argument that Saba is better than sweboz seems to be the fact that they get cheap archers early on which can take cities. That doesn't make the Saba better than sweboz.

What I do know is that, to fight a battle with Saba takes about 2 times as long as a battle using sweboz. Sweboz routs enemies quite quickly and kills them without the need of a whole lot of microing. Saba battles usually involve more casualties as well

Doesn't that alone tell you something pacific?

[seleucid empire]

Lets just admit that its ridiculously easy to destroy AI armies using lots of ranged units. The AI does not prove a sufficient challenge in this regard.

The question is which faction has the worst unit roster, not which has the more difficult starting scenario. The question needs to be asked in a vacuum in order to be answered properly. The best/most useful Sabaic units are the bodyguard infantry (by far) the noble spearmen, arabian archer-spearmen, and levy spearmen. If I had to pick cavalry with them I'd be tempted just to go with Arabian light cavalry since it is so much cheaper than Sabaen Medium Cavalry and the Sabaen Mediums get torn to shreds by most other cavalry of the same price.

The best Sweboz units are the bodyguard infantry (naturally), the Germanic Heavy Infantry and Heavy cavalry, Germanic and Cherusci swords, Dugundiz, and Sloxonez. I generally don't factor Bastarnae in because that tribe is so far removed from Sweboz territory that they are more of a Getic unit. In a straight up fight there is no way that Sabaen Noble infantry and levy spears will stand up to longswordsmen, especially ones with such tight formations and high morale as the Germanic ones. Cavalry I'd give a slight edge to the Germans as well, its only in ranged units that I'd give the edge to the Saba. That means a lot against silly AI which wanders units around in missile range but against a competent opponent who would quickly close, it matters much less.

That's what I've been saying. Saba units are obviously good against the south arabian unarmoured rebels but when they reach the ptolemies they get ripped to shreds.

Any player can beat the ai but its just a lot of effort to win those battles against ptolemies. It starts getting annoying after 2-3 such battles. Sweboz may lack archery but its surrounded by forests where archery isn't as effective anyway so it doesn't matter as much

[kidpacific]

I'm really sorry, i thought u'r the author of this thread because of the same image icon. So i think u haven't played saba campaign.Pls don't mind it. I beg ur pardon.
My native language is not English, so maybe i express somthing not clearly. I don't know which word u mentioned. If u mention 17# 'Especially the factions with limited faction units recurited areas. Saba and sweboz are both such factions', then i mean, compared to victory conditions, these two factions can only recurit faction units in rather limited areas.

[seleucid empire]

I'm really sorry, i thought u'r the author of this thread because of the same image icon. So i think u haven't played saba campaign.Pls don't mind it. I beg ur pardon.
My native language is not English, so maybe i express somthing not clearly. I don't know which word u mentioned. If u mention 17# 'Especially the factions with limited faction units recurited areas. Saba and sweboz are both such factions', then i mean, compared to victory conditions, these two factions can only recurit faction units in rather limited areas.

Yes I'm sorry too, this didn't need to have become a big argument.

What im saying is that you said in one post that the sweboz roster was "limited" but in another post you said you used mainly Arabian archer spearman to unite Arabia which contradicted itself.

Also, being a limited roster doesn't make it a weak one and this thread is about which faction has the weakest roster. Look at the late roman roster. They don't have that many factional units either but you can't say that they are weak

Also keep in mind the context. As Saba you fight in the Middle East against two heavily armed superpowers who use heavy infantry and phalanxes extensively who also have extremely good cavalry (ptolemies were recruiting companion cavalry by 250 bc last time I played Saba). You only have cheap but very light foot infantry and some ok cavalry. No doubt you can beat them since they are ai but its not easy.

As sweboz you have the highest morale barbarians. Your armies will not face phalanxes or super cavalry in Europe so you will find your campaign easy. That's why I believe sweboz has abetter roster

[kidpacific]

Lets just admit that its ridiculously easy to destroy AI armies using lots of ranged units. The AI does not prove a sufficient challenge in this regard.

The question is which faction has the worst unit roster, not which has the more difficult starting scenario. The question needs to be asked in a vacuum in order to be answered properly. The best/most useful Sabaic units are the bodyguard infantry (by far) the noble spearmen, arabian archer-spearmen, and levy spearmen. If I had to pick cavalry with them I'd be tempted just to go with Arabian light cavalry since it is so much cheaper than Sabaen Medium Cavalry and the Sabaen Mediums get torn to shreds by most other cavalry of the same price.

The best Sweboz units are the bodyguard infantry (naturally), the Germanic Heavy Infantry and Heavy cavalry, Germanic and Cherusci swords, Dugundiz, and Sloxonez. I generally don't factor Bastarnae in because that tribe is so far removed from Sweboz territory that they are more of a Getic unit. In a straight up fight there is no way that Sabaen Noble infantry and levy spears will stand up to longswordsmen, especially ones with such tight formations and high morale as the Germanic ones. Cavalry I'd give a slight edge to the Germans as well, its only in ranged units that I'd give the edge to the Saba. That means a lot against silly AI which wanders units around in missile range but against a competent opponent who would quickly close, it matters much less.

Yes, i agree. In faction units aspect, compared the swboz, the saba has better missle units, weaker melee units; has better low-tier light units, weaker high-tier heavy units. I haven't played mp. But in my opinion, full stack vs full stack, with no more than 15000 gold( low-tier/light units battle), i think saba could win because of better ranged unit and better stamina; with more than 25000 gold( high-tier/heavy units battle), i think sweboz could win because of better heavy units and better ap ability.

[seleucid empire]

Yes, i agree. In faction units aspect, compared the swboz, the saba has better missle units, weaker melee units; has better low-tier light units, weaker high-tier heavy units. I haven't played mp. But in my opinion, full stack vs full stack, with no more than 15000 gold( low-tier/light units battle), i think saba could win because of better ranged unit and better stamina; with more than 25000 gold( high-tier/heavy units battle), i think sweboz could win because of better heavy units and better ap ability.

The point is not a fulllstack v full stack between Saba and sweboz. Obviously, if its a custom battle and between the two, the Saba will use sheer missile power to kill the sweboz but that is not the case. As Saba you will not face unarmoured barbarians but heavilyarmoured phalanxes and cavalry

[kidpacific]

I never thought the faction with limited roster is weak.
In 8#, i just want to say "Sweboz factional units is lack of good ranged units", and i expressed not clearly.
'I have finished all faction campaigns at least once and i am going to prefer Swboz；
The sweboz units get bonus in forest and can access to high exp units, but the roster is rather limited.Compared to Saba( can recurit Arabian archer-spearmen, a very good low-tier multifunctional ranged unit, which has a longer range than sabean archer), Sweboz factional units is lack of good ranged units(long range/large ammo archer). In my experience, the ranged units are more reliable assault force in battle H/VH campaign( ai receive attack/defencer bonus), for the reason that the ranged unit is not influenced by the defence skill. And in foreign MIC, the saba can recuirit Hellenic native phalanx which is the highest PPR(Performance to Price Ratio) line infantry in my opinion. "

Another question is, the moral advantage of sweboz. The moral of sweboz units is high, but i can't find sweboz has a huge advantage on it. Most time I'm using medium tier(3 level MIC) unit as the backbone.The backbone units of my sweboz campaign in factional roster is germany spearmen, with 11 moral. It's good, but don't have a big advantage over other factional 3-level units. For saba, even the arabian light infantry has a 11 moral.