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Thread: Duel of the Fates

  1. #1
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Duel of the Fates









    This will be a fairly simple tournament consisting of Jedi Knights, Sith Lords, and what have you. There will be twelve participants in the round robin, which will determine the seeding for the tournament. Once the real tournament rolls around, the top four seeds each earn a first-round bye. Matchups will be adjusted according to seed after each round (i.e. #1 will always play the lowest seeded player remaining, and #12 will always play the highest seeded player remaining).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Each player has four stats which are pertinent to their success (or lack thereof) in the game.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Lightsaber Attack: Your ability to attack an opponent using a lightsaber.

    Lightsaber Defense: Your ability to defend yourself from lightsaber attacks.

    Force Attack: Your ability to attack an opponent using the Force.

    Force Defense: Your ability to defend yourself from Force attacks.


    At the beginning of the game, each player has forty points to allocate to each stat (there is no upper limit) in whichever way they see fit. Please PM these to me when you sign up. After each round robin match, each player gains an additional two points to allocate. These points may be spent at any time by sending me a PM - if you so choose, you could theoretically not spent a single additional point until after the round robin ends, or you can spend the points after each round. You are responsible for keeping track of your stats.

    Battles are calculated in the following manner:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    There is also a betting system. Rather than having each player possess a finite amount of credits, players may bet as much money as they so desire (according to limits described later). The player at the end of the game with the highest net earnings will win the betting game (which is entirely separate from and secondary to the outcome of the tournament).

    During the round robin, players may bet up to a maximum of 20 credits on ONE matchup of their choosing (may not bet on themselves). During the tournament, players may bet on as many matchups as they want, and the limit will increase each round.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    To make it easier on myself, betting will not necessarily work as it actually would in real life. Thus, players will bet on simple point spreads.

    A more in-depth explanation of point spreads is located here.

    For our purposes...

    Code:
    Outcome: earnings
    
    Win bet: amount bet + (amount bet * 1.5)
    
    Push: amount bet
    
    Lose bet: - (amount bet)

    * Please note that the point spreads are determined entirely by factors such as win-loss percentage and winning/losing streaks. Don't try to read into them, as they do not betray any information that is privy only to the GM.


    As I said earlier, I'm looking for twelve players. When you sign up, please PM me your stat allocation (remember you have forty points available to spend as you please). You MUST spend ALL of these points before the game begins.



    POTENTIAL CHAMPIONS:

    [3/12]

    Ciergan
    autolycus
    BSmith
    Last edited by Zack; 01-09-2013 at 21:52.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    CivCube here. In. Sending stat allocation shortly.

  3. #3
    Masked Man Member autolycus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    In. Sending stat allocation now.
    My game on Civfanatics could use a few more!: MNOTW XVII: The Cursed Blade!

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    Member Member BSmith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    In. Will try to get stats sent tonight.
    Always meet on the level, act by the plumb and part on the square.
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  5. #5
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I'm interested in the concept, but I'm concerned that the battle system is a little too simplistic.

    In the end, everything is going to come solely down to your stats, and since battles are based on damage output and not hit points, I could potentially game the system by putting all of my points into a single offensive stat.

    For instance- say I put all 40 starting points into Lightsaber attack. The standard player is going to put on average only 10 points into lightsaber defense - let's assume it's exactly 10. Then I deal 30 damage, and my opponent's score is based on their combined lightsaber and force attacks. The only way for them to match me in damage output is to put no points into Force defense - and even then he can only tie me.

    In fact, it is the same for ANY stat spread as long as I put all of my points into a Lightsaber attack. I win if my opponent puts any points into Force defense; I tie if my opponent puts 0 points into Force defense. So with such a stat spread using this system, I cannot lose, ever.

    You could potentially fix this balance issue in a few ways:
    -Add an HP stat.
    -Add a Speed stat or some sort of "dodge mechanic" (introduces an element of randomness into the battles).
    Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer: The Gameroom

  6. #6
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Alternatively, I could implement a restriction that mandates balance (e.g. the highest stat cannot be more than 200% the value of the lowest stat). I don't want to make the combat system overly complicated, for my own selfish reasons (limiting the time constraint on myself).
    Last edited by Zack; 01-08-2013 at 02:31.

  7. #7
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack View Post
    Alternatively, I could implement a restriction that mandates balance (e.g. the highest stat cannot be more than 200% the value of the lowest stat). I don't want to make the combat system overly complicated, for my own selfish reasons (limiting the time constraint on myself).
    Actually, sorry to say that doesn't fix anything.

    Using your example, I take the following stat spread:
    LA:16
    LD:8
    FA:8
    FD:8

    (Note that by example your 200% rule is actually similar to a hard stat cap at 16 - I can't make a stat any higher than this at the beginning of the game)

    Now, against a player with 16 LD and 8 FD, we necessarily have a tie at 0 damage for each player. For each point you remove from LD, I will deal another point of damage, and my opponent can put points in either LA/FA (which will give them a point of damage on me) or FD (which will do nothing useful). At best I win, and at worst I tie.

    So I won't be winning by a huge margin and it's a little more subtle, but I can still game the system and effectively never lose.

    I totally understand wanting to limit the number of calculations you have to do for each battle, but unfortunately there's a reason that even relatively simple RPG battle systems are often quite complex.
    Last edited by Chaotix; 01-08-2013 at 02:58.
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  8. #8
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    How could it be fixed, then? Is there any other way besides adding more stats?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Rock Paper Scissors approach. LA beats FD, FD beats FA, FA beats LD, LD beats LA. Spending points forces the battle in your favor while betting the other player isn't spending points.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Jarema's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Yes, I am afraid that now battle system is flawed.
    Maybe make 3 types of stats instead of 4, and go for Rock Paper Scissors for them?
    Or even get each player to decide which kind of attack they use this time, before every fight?

  11. #11
    Do not Dis Member LazyMcCrow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Count me in - pending rules tweakage

  12. #12
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarema View Post
    Yes, I am afraid that now battle system is flawed.
    Maybe make 3 types of stats instead of 4, and go for Rock Paper Scissors for them?
    Or even get each player to decide which kind of attack they use this time, before every fight?
    Instead of turning this into a simple rock-paper-scissors tournament, I could add more mechanics such as...

    • Learning stat -- higher your learning, the more points you gain (capped at 10)

    • Lightsaber Form -- this could be a more complicated r/p/s - type element (kind of like the different Pokemon types), which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on their opponent's lightsaber form

    • Lightsaber Type -- an additional r/p/s - type element (double-blade, single-blade, two blades), which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on their opponent's lightsaber type

    • R/P/S -- before each battle everyone PMs me a r/p/s scissors choice, which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on what their opponent throws

    • the 200% rule discussed earlier (or something similar)

    • cap the amount of score you can receive from the lightsaber and force combat rounds at 5 combat score (i.e. even if you LA = 40 and your opponent's LD = 0, you only receive 5 score instead of 40)


    Any other suggestions? Thoughts?

  13. #13
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack View Post
    Instead of turning this into a simple rock-paper-scissors tournament, I could add more mechanics such as...

    • Learning stat -- higher your learning, the more points you gain (capped at 10)

    • Lightsaber Form -- this could be a more complicated r/p/s - type element (kind of like the different Pokemon types), which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on their opponent's lightsaber form

    • Lightsaber Type -- an additional r/p/s - type element (double-blade, single-blade, two blades), which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on their opponent's lightsaber type

    • R/P/S -- before each battle everyone PMs me a r/p/s scissors choice, which acts as a modifier on their battle score depending on what their opponent throws

    • the 200% rule discussed earlier (or something similar)

    • cap the amount of score you can receive from the lightsaber and force combat rounds at 5 combat score (i.e. even if you LA = 40 and your opponent's LD = 0, you only receive 5 score instead of 40)


    Any other suggestions? Thoughts?
    Most of these would work, but I have to say I do like the Lightsaber Form idea. Perhaps combine it with different Force types as well.

    In fact, anything that reminiscent of ATPG's old Star Wars game would be pretty great.

    I would stay away from the Learning stat idea, as it would easily become the most important stat in the game.

    As a rule of thumb, if you can design a system where, the total number of stats held constant, no single stat spread is unbeatable, then you have a fairly well-balanced system.
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  14. #14
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I could spare a few minutes to give you a basic outline of the saber forms system I was planning to use in my next star wars game which is obviously on hold.

    Sabre forms will function a lot like rock paper scissors, except with 7 different forms.

    Force styles are also do-able although there's no name for such styles. You could just call it force form I and II and III, etc.
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  15. #15
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Count me in, so long as Juyo form is included.

  16. #16
    The Bad Doctor Senior Member Chaotix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    I could spare a few minutes to give you a basic outline of the saber forms system I was planning to use in my next star wars game which is obviously on hold.

    Sabre forms will function a lot like rock paper scissors, except with 7 different forms.

    Force styles are also do-able although there's no name for such styles. You could just call it force form I and II and III, etc.
    I was thinking more along the lines of Push, Lightning, Barrier, etc, and they would all work in the same sort of R/P/S format.
    Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer: The Gameroom

  17. #17
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    How would Force r/p/s powers work? I can't think of how it would work besides picking only one power to use for the entire game.

    EDIT: Although that might be what you meant?

    Pizza, that sounds great. Are you down to play as well?

  18. #18
    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I'm very interested in participating, but would definitely like some tweaks to the system. I'm afraid I don't have much to suggest (Star Wars isn't really my thing) but I think it's vital to let players make some decision(s) as to how they approach each duel, rather than relying solely on their initial points allocation. Rock, paper, scissor elements like fighting styles and stances seem like a solid start.

  19. #19
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by B_Ray View Post
    I'm very interested in participating, but would definitely like some tweaks to the system. I'm afraid I don't have much to suggest (Star Wars isn't really my thing) but I think it's vital to let players make some decision(s) as to how they approach each duel, rather than relying solely on their initial points allocation. Rock, paper, scissor elements like fighting styles and stances seem like a solid start.
    Well, each player does get two points to add to their stats after every battle (that's in the rules, right?).

    I should also note that I guess that I assumed lightsaber form and style would be a permanent choice at the beginning, but making a different choice each round would certainly add a layer of strategic depth to the game (even if that doesn't make any sense canonically, but who cares).

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Jarema's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I think the best situation would be, if every character can chose at start 2 forms, and then every fight chose one of them.
    that would add some strategy, I think: reading previous battles of your next opponent to determine what opttions he has...

  21. #21
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I have some activities long bookmarked for the next two days, however, I'll send you a basic idea of what could work to resolve duels.\

    Ultimately the star wars game I hosted (and really, any fair and balanced game) relies on a variant of rock, paper, scissors.

    It is inherently balanced and very hard to game the system. hence it results in a fair game.

    Even games like Civilization IV involve such systems for determining what is better. Spears are better than horse, but not better than axemen, and bad against archers, etc.
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  22. #22
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    Spears are better than horse, but not better than axemen, and bad against archers, etc.
    Spears are also better than tanks.

  23. #23
    Masked Man Member autolycus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    I haven't checked if there's an optimal solution here, but if every 5 points you put in a defense not only subtracted from the attack, but also increased a divisor as well (from 1-2, 2-3, etc.)

    So if we have
    Person A: LA:40, LD: 0 FA:0, FD:0
    Person B: LA:10, LD:10, FA:10, FD:10

    Then Person A's damage done would be (40-10)/3 + 0= 10
    While Person B's damage done would be 10+10=20.

    Testing a couple other examples
    Person B as above
    Person C: LA:0 LD:7 FA:15 FD:18

    Person B does 3/2=1.5
    Person C does 5/3= 3.3

    Person A
    vs. Person C
    Person A does 33/2=16.5
    Person C does 15

    But a Person D with slightly different stats might be able to beat all of these

    I don't know if this is really an RPS or not, but it is perhaps a simpler concept than adding bonuses for different forms against each other.
    My game on Civfanatics could use a few more!: MNOTW XVII: The Cursed Blade!

  24. #24
    winston 4 champs Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Duel of the Fates

    Ooooh, I really like that, autolycus.

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