Originally Posted by
Rhyfhylwyr
This is a spinoff from the Islam thread, where I wished to show that total relism's critique of Islam was somewhat hypocritical given his own beliefs.
First off, before people like PVC even comment - yes this subject might look old and tired, but I feel old and tired, and 12hr waking days are currently too long for me, hence this thread.
Now, total relism (TR from now on) criticized Islam on I would say 4 grounds. That it is based on paganism, that it is idolatrous, that it calls believers to acts of violence, and that it degrades women. I suggested that all of these (less so the third actually) might equally apply to Christianity (or what nearly anybody would mean by it), and so this thread is about the Christian, rather than Islamic viewpoint.
To be fair, I don't know what denomination TR is from, I may just be projecting things onto him, but if he's any sort of mainstream Christian then there's a 99.5% chance I'm not. But I'll have to just ask before I get into the nitty-gritty.
To start, paganism. To the average person, many of the most obvious features of Christianity are essentially pagan. Most obviously, Christmas. Contrary to the traditional story, Jesus was most likely born in September, Mary may or may not have arrived in Bethlehem on a donkey and she certainly did not arrive the night she gave birth. She then probably stayed in a house with relatives without talking with any inkeepers. The wise men (not kings, probably not riding camels, and their number is not stated) did visit Jesus, but by that time he was a toddler. As for the festivities, the date of September 25th, the practice of decorating trees, and the giving of gifts are all outright pagan ripoffs.
And Christmas is just an example, it's the tip of the iceberg. But the other examples sort of merge into the next point...
Next, idolatry. Idolatry is placing any sort of spiritual value in anything other than God, such as the use of religious rituals in worship. This includes water baptism (and especially infant baptism), ritual clothing for priests/ministers etc, communion/mass/the eucharist, and the observance of holy days. I challenge TR to justify any of these using scripture. I think it will be revealed they are either all a) pagan, b) a complete innovation, or c) a throwback to Judaism and the bondage of the law.
Thirdly, violence. Well, right off, I think we can agree that Christians are not called to violence in the name of their faith. But I have to say I think it is going to be very hard to argue that genocide isn't recorded as being carried out by the Israelites in the Old Testament. What about Joshua 6:21 in reference to Jericho: "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and ass, with the edge of the sword."?
And finally, the treatment of women. As I mentioned in the other thread, women are forbidden from speaking at an assembly of believers, they must cover their heads in church, and they must keep their hair long. TR responded with the various things women were permitted to do, which was a bit beside the point. If women are seen as equal in authority to men, why can't they open their mouths during a service, and why are they only seen as fit to tutor children?
And as for Eve, although she is of course like Adam in some sense created in the image of God, she was ultimately created as a domestic helper and was even given childbearing as a form of punishment. Which isn't really equality as most people would consider it.
So back to the thread title, which probably seem stranged for TR when I came across as an atheist. Of course I am not. For me, Christianity is quite simply the promise of a return to true natural state of mankind, and being a Christian is about striving for that right now. Both God-ordained and man-made problems will be removed. God-ordained problems being death, ill-health etc, and man-made ones being anything that is somehow related to the breakdown of our God-appointed and entirely natural social relationships (eg gender roles, family, nation etc) caused by man's fallen state. Everything will just work because people will be reconciled with God.
And that for me is the big difference between what I believe, and any mainstream religion out there. Religious systems are, as a philosopher would say, 'artificial and positive', based on rituals and observances etc. Whereas for me, Christianity is simply a description of our natural state. These two notions are the exact opposite each other, and yet it is these foundations that your faith really boils down to. Is the Bible a set of arbitrary commands, or does it offer a deeper meaning of who we really are and how we are meant to live? One detracts from the other, so it can't be both...
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