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Thread: Concerning Dyslexia

  1. #91
    Senior Member Senior Member Tellos Athenaios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Except that Dyslexics don't have trouble with pattern recognition - Dyslexia is a very specific problem with matching glyphs to sounds, then putting the glyphs together to make words.
    Well colour me confused, especially as the few dyslectics I know tend to mention the upside-down stuff -- confusing a p for b that sort of thing.

    The quickest and easiest way to practice is to talk, which is how children learn.
    Yes, except that you need people to talk to in that language. For instance, it is hard to practice your classical Latin by talking to people. Those guys are dead, they don't talk back so you don't learn much through the normal feedback loops.

    Closer to home, it would be difficult to teach yourself French in this manner without a suitable supply of Frenchies to practice on. Yet that is more or less what is asked of cohorts and cohorts of middle/high school students.
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  2. #92
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Well colour me confused, especially as the few dyslectics I know tend to mention the upside-down stuff -- confusing a p for b that sort of thing.
    D and B are common too - but it's not actually the letters they are confusing, it's the letter-sound relationship, especially as "p" "b" and "d" all look very similar for a reason - your mouth make a very similar sound when doing "p" "b" and "d", that's why the letters are similar, and that's why dyslexics get them confused.

    It's important to stress that "Dyslexia" describes a specific neurological condition, not a general difficulty with writing. Dyslexics generally score well on IQ tests, so anyone who scores low on an IQ test and has trouble reading probably has a different problem.

    Yes, except that you need people to talk to in that language. For instance, it is hard to practice your classical Latin by talking to people. Those guys are dead, they don't talk back so you don't learn much through the normal feedback loops.

    Closer to home, it would be difficult to teach yourself French in this manner without a suitable supply of Frenchies to practice on. Yet that is more or less what is asked of cohorts and cohorts of middle/high school students.
    Right - you want to learn French? You go live with bi-lingual French people patient enough to talk to you in French. Once you know what "yes" "no" "up" "down" etc. are you can be taught the language, rather than reading it. Granted, having a Grammar will help, but not as much as more practice.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member Senior Member Tellos Athenaios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Right - you want to learn French? You go live with bi-lingual French people patient enough to talk to you in French. Once you know what "yes" "no" "up" "down" etc. are you can be taught the language, rather than reading it. Granted, having a Grammar will help, but not as much as more practice.
    Sure, but the idea of "every student of the French language his own personal French tutors/guinea pigs" is not scalable. There simply aren't enough French people to go around. And even if it were, we'd have to somehow fix our labs so that either us can all up sticks and move to France (they already complain about immigrants there despite the country being rather empty), or the French are willing to move here.

    More seriously, though, I refer you back to my earlier example of the high & middle school students: in such a situation you'll find that stand fare is learning using a textbook (augmented with other materials and usually a teacher to be sure, but the textbook stuff is important not just because it provides reference material but also because it includes a lot of practical real-world French with some measure of quality, quantity and diversity).

    You might say that dyslectics do worse because they have trouble with reading rather than with the language itself. Probably true enough, but the end result is all the same: in this situation without reading you develop less of the vocabulary and a "sense" of how the language flows/works, and without *that* you simply do not learn as much about that language and we have a bit of positive feedback here (as language is usually taught in incremental steps).

    You are right that the single best way to learn a language is to "live it", but apart from your native tongue that is not usually how you wind up learning your second/third etc. language.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 12-06-2012 at 21:53.
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  4. #94
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    In a lot of countries in Africa they speak perfect French, but people there can't read it at all. If they have to have an academic standard fine, I can't compete, my english and french is ok but reading or writing it isn't all that easy if you really want to be good at it. I make mistakes when writing in Dutch and I live in the Neds
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    In a lot of countries in Africa they speak perfect French, but people there can't read it at all.
    ....not to mention that everyone learns to speak before they learn to read or write...

    But still, dyslexia is the inability to learn how to do it, not the inability to do it.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 12-09-2012 at 10:52.
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    ‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel Member Kival's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    ....not to mention that everyone learns to speak before they learn to read or write...
    I didnt learn to speak greek or latin but only learned (some) reading. Even spanish I learned only to read some of it (but forgot most of it...) before I learned to speak some of it (but...).

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  7. #97
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    but there is no way you couldve and wouldve done that if you hadnt learned to read and write german first and you only couldve done that by learning how to speak/understand german first.


    i mean try to learn to read and write chinese without anyone translating it into speach or into another written language. you wouldnt achieve it in a hundred years i think.
    Last edited by The Stranger; 12-12-2012 at 15:10.

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  8. #98
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    i mean try to learn to read and write chinese without anyone translating it into speach or into another written language. you wouldnt achieve it in a hundred years i think.
    Incorrect, the characters can be understood without reading out loud. It is normally considered a sign of a learner when they silently open their mouths as they read.

    Also using Chinese written words as your argument is particularly weak. Because which language are you going to speak? Chinese written is used for many spoken languages. A Mandarin movie is subtitled in Chinese for Cantonese speakers, a Cantonese movie is subtitled in Chinese for Manadrin speakers. Different pronouciations, different number of tones, different languages, yet the same Chinese characters 99% of the time.

    You also on top of that have Traditonal Chinese character set or Simplified Chinese, both of which have the same pronouciations in Mandarin or Cantonese yet are written differently.

    So yes, you can learn characters and not know how to speak them. I can read more Chinese characters then I can pronounce and the ones I can't I auto translate to English. Things like water, exit and entrance I can pronounce, but I read the characters as English.

  9. #99
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    ofcourse u can learn to read without learning how to speak a language but not if it is the first language you learn. no person learns how to read before speech as his first language.

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  10. #100
    Senior Member Senior Member Tellos Athenaios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    ofcourse u can learn to read without learning how to speak a language but not if it is the first language you learn. no person learns how to read before speech as his first language.
    Except that body language is the very first you'll learn which will be mostly visual, and people who are born deaf will probably always have to make do with visual languages alone. You are missing the fact that what this all boils down to is just recognition of patterns and assigning semantic meaning to them.

    Our brains are just a self-learning pattern matching machine, so if you cared to do so you could get babies to learn a language visually (i.e. read) before being able to speak. We do that with bonobo's and other apes already (teaching them how to read and write).
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 12-13-2012 at 21:23.
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  11. #101
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    im not missing that, all i meant to point out to kival was that his example of learning to read a language without or before learning to speak it was only possible for him because he already knew a different language.

    you are right that body language comes first, you could undoubtly learn someone to read without teaching them how speak otherwise deaf people could never learn how to read which ofcourse they can but only by visual means. i may have not phrased accurately enough,
    Last edited by The Stranger; 12-14-2012 at 00:32.

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  12. #102
    Iron Fist Technical Administrator Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    What do you mean by body language comes first?
    IIRC babies already adapt to the tone and sound of their mother language in the womb. They won't hear exact words but it influences their language learning later on since they already know some general patterns of their mother tongue.
    Can you say a deaf person learns the same language? What does a sign language have in common with a spoken language? You can compare the writing and teach the same writing but does that mean that the brain of the deaf person has the same language concept as a hearing person in the end?


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  13. #103
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    ofcourse u can learn to read without learning how to speak a language but not if it is the first language you learn. no person learns how to read before speech as his first language.
    "No person" is a pretty big statement.

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  14. #104
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    ofcourse u can learn to read without learning how to speak a language but not if it is the first language you learn. no person learns how to read before speech as his first language.
    Interestingly enough children who are raised in a bilangual enviroment can naturally distinguish the two languages. I don't think this has ever been fully understood.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    im raised bilingual, 3 if you take my unhealthy exposure to american television and games into account :P i do not understand what you mean exactly tho, you mean from birth?

    anyway i take back what i said, it was too general, i mainly just meant kivals example of latin.

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  16. #106
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Interestingly enough children who are raised in a bilangual enviroment can naturally distinguish the two languages. I don't think this has ever been fully understood.
    My son is bilingual. I speak English to him and my wife Mandarin. I asked him when he was four if he could teach me Mandarin his reply was that I had the wrong face so you might have a clue there.

    Some languages have fairly strong gender definitions for objects. So like learning these rulesets learning a new language when young might be a factor.

    I'll ask my wife as her business is teaching Mandarin and she is doing her Masters in Linguisitics. I've seen a fair bit of her course work focuses on bilingual children.

  17. #107
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    im raised bilingual, 3 if you take my unhealthy exposure to american television and games into account :P i do not understand what you mean exactly tho, you mean from birth?
    Yes, they can distinguish it naturally when learning to talk. Pap's explanation sounds plausible. Would be interesting to have the aspect of facial expression removed but I doubt anyone will agree such an experiment is a very good idea.
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  18. #108
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Zoo Keeper Champion, Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion, Alien Commander Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Interestingly enough children who are raised in a bilangual enviroment can naturally distinguish the two languages. I don't think this has ever been fully understood.
    I suspect it has to do with the rytm and sound. Every language got an unique combination. It doesn't take much practice to hear the difference between say Spanish and Portugese even if you aren't understanding any words from it. The bilanguals probably have this incentrically, every words with rythm A is that language, while the words with rythm B is another.
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  19. #109
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    I suspect it has to do with the rytm and sound. Every language got an unique combination. It doesn't take much practice to hear the difference between say Spanish and Portugese even if you aren't understanding any words from it. The bilanguals probably have this incentrically, every words with rythm A is that language, while the words with rythm B is another.
    Probably, but it's also true for languages that are very similar like Dutch and German, you would expect that those languages would merge into a hybrid of sorts when both are spoken from day one, but that is not the case. I think it's really interesting.
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