Concerning Dyslexia

[Andres]

So, if I understand you correctly, your point is that you dislike the fact that people with a mental disability that hasn't gotten a label yet are called "dumb" while those who have gotten a label (dyslexia, dyscalcula, dyscetera) have a fancy name for their disability? And not only that, the latter group gets attention and special treatment to help them overcome their disability, while the former are just treated badly and called "dumb"?
@HoreTore

[HoreTore]

I am indeed!

I blame the "scientlogy"-spelling on the iPad's keyboard, but the misspelled "reference" is all mine. I hate that word, I usually screw it up when writing Norwegian too...

[HoreTore]

So, if I understand you correctly, your point is that you dislike the fact that people with a mental disability that hasn't gotten a label yet are called "dumb" while those who have gotten a label (dyslexia, dyscalcula, dyscetera) have a fancy name for their disability? And not only that, the latter group gets attention and special treatment to help them overcome their disability, while the former are just treated badly and called "dumb"?
@HoreTore

Correct, except for calling it a "mental disability".

[The Stranger]

.....and the question then, is why do you accept those with downs syndrome and dyslexia, but not those who can't figure out fractions, how to read a map or biology?

who says i dont? it seems to me you are just looking out to shock, pour gasoline on flammable topics, because if your concern was, like you pointed out later, that we do not treat people with similar disabilities in a similar fashion, you could have and should have made this the main point of your OP. Also, i asked my question before you made this clear, so there was no way for me to know that that was your main concern.

[HoreTore]

who says i dont?

Because "everyone" does it.

[The Stranger]

BS...

anyway for me, disability to do something is no reason to not accept that person. I however do believe that every person should atleast try to live up to his potential, I would not accept not trying (lazyness or carelesness in your layman's terms), I would accept limited potential (being dumb in your layman's terms).

[Husar]

I connect with boys on a personal level faster than girls, but I connect with girls on an educational level faster than boys. Anyhoo:

It was an argument against the right-wing antifeminist rant about schools being designed to favour girls instead of boys.

Partisan politics. Don't let Europe become another America by engaging in even more "us vs. them" political bigotry that leads to a two-party system!

As for actual ability comparisons: more girls are in the bottom end of the math scale, but more girls are also in the upper end. Boys dominate the middle. Funnily, the graphs for boy/girl ability match the majority/immigrant graph... But that's a subject for a different thread!

No, it just proves that girls are indeed from another planet.*

Yes, "dumb" means "less intelligent". How can we define "less intelligent", if not by looking at a persons abilities? Also, dyslexia isn't a reason why a person can't write. A person isn't unable to write because he has dyslexia, he has dyslexia because he can't write. In other words, "because he's too dumb/unintelligent to write".

Following your posts arguments, dyslectics are thus defined as dumb. Is that a fair definition?

No, I don't know why you are being so unfair.
On the topic of unfair, it wasn't a fair interpretation either because intelligence is not based on a single ability and I never claimed that it was. Dumb also doesn't mean "less intelligent", it means "below a subjectively insufficient threshold of intelligence"!

And this needs separate treatment:

Also, dyslexia isn't a reason why a person can't write. A person isn't unable to write because he has dyslexia, he has dyslexia because he can't write. In other words, "because he's too dumb/unintelligent to write".

The bolded term is completely nonsensical because you say the same thing twice, "dyslexia" is a synonym or name for "unable to write", neither is the cause or effect. The cause is, and I'm not a doctor, some deficiency in a certain part of the brain that does not affect other parts of the brain as far as I can tell. The effect is dyslexia or being unable to write.
However, a deficiency in a small does not make someone dumb overall. Especially unintelligent, but also dumb are terms that refer to the overall mental state of a person and not just some small area, as such neither term fits. If I say someone is "too dumb to drive" it's insulting because I assume that the overall intelligence of that person is too low to perform a task that most people can master even though the ability to drive has no bearing on mathematical or other talents, just like dyslexia.
Intelligence is more like the average of a person's mental capabilities and not just the lowest single ability, just like your grade in a 10-task-exam is not just the grade of the task you couldn't solve but the average of your score in all ten tasks.




*For more information about being from another planet, please consult your local church of scientology.**

**I know it gets old, but don't we all?

[HoreTore]

I am not attacking your values, Husar, I'm attacking the values of society as a whole. If you don't consider someone someone who can't do math stupid, then good. The fact remains that I have several students who feel like complete failures and idiots because they just can't wrap their minds around statistics. The number of people who feel that way because they have trouble writing is drastically lower. This is due to the term dyslexia and how society has accepted that inability.

Dyslexia doesn't have a cause. "Dyslexia" is the term we give for those who have specific difficulties with writing. There are several reasons why people have such problems, from a number of causes, both biological and enviromental.

And the sentence you bolded doesn't say "the same thing twice". The order of things is switched in the second half.

[Beskar]

So the premise of the thread is that people with marked disabilities such as dyslexica, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, autism, aspergers, ADHD are simply stupid people with fancy titles is in complete contrast to neurological impairments found in research which demonstrates evidence of different 'wiring' within the brain compared to typical brain samples of people and in a subsection of that, people who simply are too lazy to check the validity of sources and pigeon-hole themselves in the conservative bubbles such as FOX news, reading only the headlines which makes them 'stupid'.

People with disabilities are stigmatised heavily in society, even in the past exterminated / sterilised for conditions and yet you inflame the situation because a couple of forum members felt comfortable enough to express they had a disability to each other, you find it is totally okay to phrase your topic like this when it is your own ignorance on the matter which is at fault.

The fact remains that I have several students who feel like complete failures and idiots because they just can't wrap their minds around statistics.

Dyscalculia is one cause, the other is bad teachers since many Maths teachers are unable to adequately teach maths and just expect the students to magically do it. When I first did algebra I was utterly confused by these letters since letters were not numbers and the teacher didn't teach us, it was only when some one sat me down and explained then I went "Oh.. that's easy". If your students really do have difficulties as they show signs of a neuralogical disorder such as dyscalculia, then recommend them to your school educational psychologist. If there are grounds for suspicion, they will be investigated and these students can get the help they need and are entitled to.



As for your phrasing, I could reword your post into a race-debate if that makes you understand why people found it offensive. It would look like this -

It is the equal of arguing:
Now, 'Black' people have gained a large social acceptance. I find that acceptance very puzzling. Can someone here explain to me why it's a-okay to publicly state that you're 'black'?

Class Room Experience:
I have some 'Arabian' people in my class, they are struggling since 9/11 and they are not receiving the same acceptance, the system is corrupt and biased as they are not getting the help they need

Why are they called stupid and not ethnic minorities:
'White' people who spend too much time in the sun and getting sun burned are simply classed as stupid 'white people' by society, they are not given the same treatment as ethnic minorities.

[Husar]

I am not attacking your values, Husar, I'm attacking the values of society as a whole. If you don't consider someone someone who can't do math stupid, then good.

I know and I'm challenging your attack, although it's okay if you have doublexia.

The fact remains that I have several students who feel like complete failures and idiots because they just can't wrap their minds around statistics. The number of people who feel that way because they have trouble writing is drastically lower. This is due to the term dyslexia and how society has accepted that inability.

Is that so or do you just assume it is? How are the treatments for other conditions? Of course they shouldn't feel that way but then again even I am dumb and sometimes feel worse than I am, I doubt it's because I lack a name for my disorders.

Dyslexia doesn't have a cause. "Dyslexia" is the term we give for those who have specific difficulties with writing. There are several reasons why people have such problems, from a number of causes, both biological and enviromental.

Tiaexz already answered this (see quote below).

And the sentence you bolded doesn't say "the same thing twice". The order of things is switched in the second half.

The order of words but not the order of the content because you just switched synonyms!
So basically it says the same thing twice...

So the premise of the thread is that people with marked disabilities such as dyslexica, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, autism, aspergers, ADHD are simply dumb people with fancy titles is in complete contrast to neurological impairments found in research which demonstrates evidence of different 'wiring' within the brain compared to atypical brain samples of people who simply are too lazy to check the validity of sources and pigeon-hole themselves in the conservative bubbles such as FOX news, reading only the headlines which makes them 'dumb'.

No, I think his point is that dyscalculia should get more social acceptance to make kids with dyscalculia feel great like kids with the socially dyslexia already do. Additionally I assume that he thinks people who watch Fox News all day aren't really dumb, just born that way and should get a fancy name for their disorder, like dysfoxia, so they can feel great about their birth condition as well.

What is interesting in this context is that you say different wiring in the brain, which is my understanding as well, while HoreTore adds "environmental" to that in what is no doubt a lame attempt to direct the topic towards class warfare. Of course I would like to see some evidence that dyslexia is caused by "environmental" effects that do not have anything to do with the brain and does not just victimize analphabets by reframing them dyslexics due to "environmental" effects.

People with disabilities are stigmatised heavily in society, even in the past exterminated / sterilised for conditions and yet you inflame the situation because a couple of forum members felt comfortable enough to express they had a disability to each other, you find it is totally okay to phrase your topic like this when it is your own ignorance on the matter which is at fault.

I think he has an impairment to bring his point across in the OP and the topic, we could call it "dystopia" so he can feel better about it.

[HoreTore]

Ah, the wonders of little-understood "catch-all"-terms... "Different wiring" can be one cause which leads to being labeled dyslectic, but there's a wealth of other reasons a person can get that label.

The point, Tiaexz, is that the people you just labeled stupid struggle with the exact same things you do.

So, that either makes you both dumb, or you can say that none of you are dumb. I lean towards the second, and I'm curious to know why you label yourself "dumb".

[Beskar]

So, that either makes you both dumb, or you can say that none of you are dumb. I lean towards the second, and I'm curious to know why you label yourself "dumb".

Because I am not actually stupid in any real sense of the term?

I am only can be addressed as 'stupid' in certain areas by relative comparison with my own performance in other areas, which scored 'average' compared to 'very superior' which is down to actual impairments. According to this wikipedia table for Wechsler, that is Average meaning 90-109 IQ, compared to my performance in non-affected areas which is over 130.

So perhaps something new for you - You can be Dyslexic and not be 'stupid'


[Dumb actually means 'Unable to speak, most typically because of congenital deafness.' so changed the word.]

[HoreTore]

It is indeed the point of this thread that you are not 'stupid' in any way or form, Tiaexz.

[Andres]

I think he has an impairment to bring his point across in the OP and the topic, we could call it "dystopica" so he can feel better about it.

[caravel]

This thread just gets dumber and dumber...

[Beskar]

Dumbest Ways to Die

[Husar]

Ah, the wonders of little-understood "catch-all"-terms... "Different wiring" can be one cause which leads to being labeled dyslectic, but there's a wealth of other reasons a person can get that label.

If it's a label, then it's not a disability.

The point, Tiaexz, is that the people you just labeled stupid struggle with the exact same things you do.

But that doesn't mean they struggle for the same reasons. There is a huge difference between struggling because of a brain condition you were born with and "struggling" because you just don't put enough effort into something. The NHS for example says all evidence points toward it being genetic so you may want to support your claim that other people can get the "label" and be called dyslexic for non-biological reasons. Or we can just move on and assume your claim is bollox.

So, that either makes you both dumb, or you can say that none of you are dumb. I lean towards the second, and I'm curious to know why you label yourself "dumb".

He doesn't, he says the other people are not dyslexic even though you wrongfully slap that label onto them.

[HoreTore]

Dumbest Ways to Die

This thread had three points though:

Firstly, that dyslectics are not stupid.
Secondly, that those who struggle to learn other things than writing are not stupid either.
Thirdly, that to accept the first, but not the second, is hypocrisy.

Do you understand the point of the thread now, Tiaexz?

[HoreTore]

If it's a label, then it's not a disability.


But that doesn't mean they struggle for the same reasons. There is a huge difference between struggling because of a brain condition you were born with and "struggling" because you just don't put enough effort into something. The NHS for example says all evidence points toward it being genetic so you may want to support your claim that other people can get the "label" and be called dyslexic for non-biological reasons. Or we can just move on and assume your claim is bollox.


He doesn't, he says the other people are not dyslexic even though you wrongfully slap that label onto them.

Imagine a long scale, Husar.

On one end, it says "can learn to read and write well". On the other, it says "cannot learn to read or write well". Everyone can put themselves somewhere on that scale, and there are many reasons why you end up on that point. One part of the scale is called "dyslexia". Exactly where that point is has shifted back and forth over time, and differs from place to place. Tiaexz has found the reason why he is on that end of the scale. That's far from the only reason you can end up there. The reason is quite obvious: dyslexia simply means "bad at writing, good at most other stuff". Such a huge definition will inevitably end up covering a bunch of different things.

Now make a similar scale for other fields, as many as you'd like. The same rules apply to them.

And so, if being on one end of the scale in one of them is enough to be labeled "dumb", them the dyslectic is dumb as well.

I don't see it that way, though. Not for the dyslectic, not for the dyscalculic, not for those who can't read a map or those who don't understand politics.

And I see those who defend one or two of the scales while labeleling the other scales, as hypocrits.



But do have fun calling people dumb if that makes your penis grow.

[TinCow]

Do you understand the point of the thread now, Tiaexz?

There are ways to prove that point without being an ass.

[HoreTore]

There are ways to prove that point without being an ass.

Are they as much fun?

By the way, Tincow, several posters have now called huge groups of people dumb. And they've done so not to prove a point about them not being dumb, they've done because they believe these groups of people are simply dumb.

Now where's that banhammer?!?!??!!?

[TinCow]

Are they as much fun?

By the way, Tincow, several posters have now called huge groups of people dumb. And they've done so not to prove a point about them not being dumb, they've done because they believe these groups of people are simply dumb.

Now where's that banhammer?!?!??!!?

If you want people banned, whine to a Mod. I just work here.

[HoreTore]

If you want people banned, whine to a Mod. I just work here.

I reserve the right to whine to anyone, about anything, at any time.

That's part of my Norwegian heritage, you know

[TinCow]

I reserve the right to whine to anyone, about anything, at any time.

You'd make a great Tech Admin then.

[Beskar]

This thread had three points though:

Firstly, that dyslectics are not stupid.
Secondly, that those who struggle to learn other things than writing are not stupid either.
Thirdly, that to accept the first, but not the second, is hypocrisy.

Do you understand the point of the thread now, Tiaexz?

But here is the fundamental issue, you are not making the point you think you are making -

Posters felt open enough to say they have a disability, ranging from dyslexia to dyscalculia. Each of the posters were met with a warm response and were accepted.

In response to this, you specifically target dyslexia, you purposefully put typos in your opening message and you call them dumb. You then target them and people with disabilities with distain. (To make your point that people shouldn't do.)

You then attempt to reason that dyslexia was some special status in comparison to dyscalculia which was not expressed on this forum and from the side-topic, people with other disabilities were accepted. No one has come in and said "oh poster x has dyspraxia, he is just dumb, lol".

So fundamentally, who is your 'point' aimed at? There is no hypocrisy going on at all.

The point if any is that you are purposefully offending and upsetting other posters then trying to craptastically reason it away with utter bovine attempting to make a 'point' where there is no point to be made. This is the point you succeeded in making.

[Husar]

The reason is quite obvious: dyslexia simply means "bad at writing, good at most other stuff".

Not according to the NHS:

There are several theories about the causes of dyslexia, but all tend to agree it is a genetic condition passed on through families.

If it's genetic then it does not necessarily say that you are good at anything else and it also does not mean that people who aren't good at writing for non-genetic reasons are dyslexic as well. I have already asked you twice to list any causes that are non-genetic and you still haven't done that, yet you keep talking about scales, fish have scales, that doesn't make them dyslexic.

[HoreTore]

But here is the fundamental issue, you are not making the point you think you are making -

Posters felt open enough to say they have a disability, ranging from dyslexia to dyscalculia. Each of the posters were met with a warm response and were accepted.

In response to this, you specifically target dyslexia, you purposefully put typos in your opening message and you call them dumb. You then target them and people with disabilities with distain.

You then attempt to reason that dyslexia was some special status in comparison to dyscalculia which was not expressed on this forum and from the side-topic, people with other disabilities were accepted. No one has come in and said "oh poster x has dyspraxia, he is just dumb, lol".

So fundamentally, who is your 'point' aimed at? There is no hypocrisy going on at all. The point if any is that you are purposefully offending and upsetting other posters then trying to craptastically reason it away with utter bovine attempting to make a 'point' where there is no point to be made. This is the point you succeeded in making.

Just a few weeks ago, there was a thread here about how people who don't understand politics should be treated as second-class citizens and stripped of their voting rights.

That is what I'm arguing against. I didn't see you offer any perspectives of why we should label these people dumb and strip them of their rights. You're all up in arms now though. Thus, hypocrisy.

And you yourself labeled a whole group of people "dumb" just a few posts ago. But you object to people taking one aspect of your person and calling you dumb. Again, hypocrisy.

[Beskar]

That is what I'm arguing against. I didn't see you offer any perspectives of why we should label these people dumb and strip them of their rights. You're all up in arms now though. Thus, hypocrisy.

Why is it hypocrisy when I never posted about why we would strip people of voting rights, and if anything, I believe we shouldn't?

And you yourself labeled a whole group of people "dumb" just a few posts ago. But you object to people taking one aspect of your person and calling you dumb. Again, hypocrisy.

Where? You are saying the example where I am saying people are behaving stupid and therefore, would be permitted to be called stupid for acting like such? That is a choice of theirs to do, not something innate. They could simply read other news resources and not just stick to Fox news.

[HoreTore]

Why is it hypocrisy when I never posted about why we would strip people of voting rights, if anything, I believe we shouldn't?

"...and then, said the old man, the young Tiaexz discovered that neither the world, nor this thread, was about him specifically. He then went on to slay many more dragons and rescue his fair share of maidens, learning something new with each step he took." And that's the end of that tale, young ones, now go to sleep.

Where?

Here:

"people who simply are too lazy to check the validity of sources and pigeon-hole themselves in the conservative bubbles such as FOX news, reading only the headlines which makes them 'stupid'. "

I mean, all dyslectics are just lazy people who should just sit their behinds down and study, right?

[The Stranger]

Can someone pass me the popcorn. And where is Fragony when you need him, this thread needs one of his enigmatic posts!