Useless units?

[Gilrandir]

Here I would like people to share their mind about the units they never train/hire (peasants are not discussed). We will not dwell on the cases when you have no other choice, rather I would like to hear people speak of an ideal game (you have access to all possible kinds of units).
In my case, I can divide such useless units in 2 categories:
1) redundant ones;
2) untamed ones.
The first are definitely crossbows. Does anyone use them if you can have arbalesters? Mounted crossbows belong here too as I see the main purpose of horse ranged units in disrupting enemy's formation and luring him into traps. But MCs are too slow shooters to do that, horsed archers of various types do it better. And the accuracy of MCs!
The second category includes the units I can't (because I don't want to) master as I see no reason to do it. Here I include all javelin units (Jinets as well). I realize the amount of angry javelin adepts' voices but I don't see the efficiency of such units. I will explain.
Javelins are range units. The main aim of this type of units is to kill the enemy at a distance. But the distance they can use their weapons at is ridiculously short. Thus, killing at a distance I leave solely to archers/arbalesters. When the distance allows javelins to do their job, the melee breaks out, so using the javs you are likely to hit your own units as much as the enemy's. One might say that I should use a junk unit to pin the enemy with. But to cause substantial damage you should have at least three jav units (and three junk units, correspondingly). I don't relish the idea of having my front line composed of three junk units (which are likely to rout very soon) just to let javs show their usefulness.
Moreover, The Guide recommends using javs from the rear. So, instead of sending the cavalry to hit from the rear and disperse the enemy, I should try to bring the long two-row formation of the javs around the melee (without letting them get entangled into the fight) and send them to the rear to do a questionable damage while the battle is raging on demanding for some prompt and effective measures.
The only case when I admit the usefulness of javelins is bridge battles. It's not that I use them there, rather I saw them used against me, they were deadly! But you can't have javs-a-plenty in your armies just in case one of them (armies that is)may encounter a bridge battle someday. Rather they can be specific assignment troops called for if you expect an attack over the river.

[sulla1982ad]

Any shield unit. If you want to counter cavery use Pole units, or other Cavary. Also on the attack there not much cop.

[Ironside]

It's all down to preferences in many cases, although the number of redundant units are plenty (lithuanian cav for example). And sometimes it's down to the faction rooster.

Crossbows are certainly redundant, although I've been using them for a decade when high comes before teaching up to arbs. before I modded them to early and increased their rof slightly.

Mounted crossbowmen does it job decently on harassing and are good to deploy behind enemy lines, when the melee begins. But they are a horse archer substitute for factions not getting horse archers normally.

jinettes are rally good actually. They're among the strongest fast cavalry and got javelins to boot. Harass that heavy cav and draw them away or shower them with javelins. Then go and hit some flank somewhere.

The one thing to remember that foot javelin units are early units and meant as such. Thus pin that royal cav with spearmen and then hit him with javelins. I'm not sure why VI added such a number of them, since they don't have that much use (even with a good position, they run out of javelins quite quickly and aren't usually good at melee), but there's still places where they're useful. But they are mainly made to soften up tougher units in early.

Spears are better than polearms in these areas.
Early access: You'll get Chivalric Sergeants and halbs at about the same time. That's quite a while before polearms show up.
Arrow/bolt resistance: Silver CS vs the horde are really useful. I don't think I've ever seen a CS unit crumble and rout due to frontal arrow fire. Sure they get depleted after a while, but they're the stronged unit vs arrow fire in the game, thanks to their armour, shields and added unit numbers. The heaviest halb can handle this aswell, but they have the next problem
Speed: Mainly vs regular halbs and CFK. Those units are annoyingly slow. Can be countered, but extra speed is always useful.
Access: The faster halbs are all hard to get. Either faction or region speciffic.
Staying power: Spears makes an exellent frontline due to this. They last for a long time. And with their high charge values, they can do pretty good charges.

They're weaker in MP as far as I know, since many of thier advantages get nullified.

The boon with halbs are the ap (that get's better the longer the game goes due to increased armour) and that they got devastating charges vs cav, finishing the cav off much faster.

Normal pikemen are quite useless though. They lack many of the advantages normal spear gets and only gains it in bridge battles without arrow fire.

[Prince Cobra]

I hate Steppe (light) cavalry. I consider it waste of unit place and too specialised. Yes, it is perfect at chasing routers and etc. but the same role can be filled by the plain Horse Archers. Not that spectacular but a versatile unit for hit-and-run tactics and chasing the routed enemy alike. A master horse breeder and a church do good work for the HA.

[bunt0025]

I don't build toward knights, right away... and stopped building Royal Knights, altogether. I find that towards the end of the early era I will capture enough provinces that one (or a couple) will have most of the requirements for Fuedal Knights (and sometimes Chiv) already present... and the buildings that are destroyed during the capture are usually the ones you want... with an exception of Knight buildup buildings. That or I'm just unlucky.?.

Spanish Jinettes are basically Mounted Sergeants w/o a charge stat... or a charge BUGLE for that matter (haha)... only faster... and throw javs... and trample routers with vigour! I use them if their home provinces (many of which hold iron) already hold the horse farmer line, but don't hold the spear line. Excellent versus dismounted armour, good versus unmounted light, and even fair versus archers/cavarly.

Any shield unit. If you want to counter cavery use Pole units, or other Cavary. Also on the attack there not much cop.

I'll take this into consideration, but I can't imagine it working well with the English. The spear line develops billmen, a pole arm unit, for some odd reason.

It's all down to preferences in many cases, although the number of redundant units are plenty (lithuanian cav for example). And sometimes it's down to the faction rooster.

The first time I played a campaign I tech'd up to Lith Cav just for fun (easy is... well... easy). They have low support costs for cavalry, but their build up took FOREVER. Also, once I played the Danes without training ANY vikings... only allowing myself to bribe them. They still (can) have an incredible trade advantage versus anyone outside of the Med... and most inside of the Med.

[FinalLegendZero]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arquebusiers yet. The only way to use a gunpowder unit effectively is to have them fire from behind at close range. At such short distances, the the Arquebusier's range advantage over the Handgunner doesn't really matter, and at least Handgunners can perform decently in melee once they're done shooting.

[Ironside]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arquebusiers yet. The only way to use a gunpowder unit effectively is to have them fire from behind at close range. At such short distances, the the Arquebusier's range advantage over the Handgunner doesn't really matter, and at least Handgunners can perform decently in melee once they're done shooting.

Depends. Arqubuisers are more there for the morale drop (-6 instead of -2) for a quick rout, rather than damage. They don't replace arbs, they're a minor complement to them. They do got better accuracy than handgunners, so that point blank volley works a bit better as well.

It's a personal preference thing. I think more people prefer arqs compared to handgunners actually, even if neither is really popular.

[bunt0025]

I hate Steppe (light) cavalry. I consider it waste of unit place and too specialised. Yes, it is perfect at chasing routers and etc. but the same role can be filled by the plain Horse Archers. Not that spectacular but a versatile unit for hit-and-run tactics and chasing the routed enemy alike. A master horse breeder and a church do good work for the HA.

I have only the vanilla MTW (no Russian Spears, no Heavy Steppe Cav, etc) so I still find myself training light steppe cav when I conquor eastward with a western european power (no horse archers). Hobilars are basically a slower, slightly cheaper steppe cav (trading one attack for one defense point). The extra speed (vs hobilars) seems to work well for the years leading up to allowing the prov to be able to produce mounted sgts, imo.

[HopAlongBunny]

Javelins; except for the exceptional Jinette :)

Another exception might be the Irish roster in VI; you aren't getting anywhere w/o some mastery of javelins.

Hashishian (sp); why build them when I could get another (or many) Ghazi? No real use for them.

Viking Thralls; why bother? Need bulk for garrison? =>peasants; Need spears? =>build spears :p

[LordK9]

Let's see; I don't build any body guards (other then house carls in VI) although I do repair them. Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built. Heavy steppe cavalry is too expensive for its usefulness. Crossbows, peasants, and thralls were already mentioned. On an opposite note, vikings seemed to be good anti-armor even in the late period; seemed similar to those Arab units. Don't bother with non-siege engine gunpowder units at all. No need for spears for the German factions in VI as Friedman are better by far. Probably others - just none come to mind off the top of my head.

[LordK9]

Let's see; I don't build any body guards (other then house carls in VI) although I do repair them. Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built. Heavy steppe cavalry is too expensive for its usefulness. Crossbows, peasants, and thralls were already mentioned. On an opposite note, vikings seemed to be good anti-armor even in the late period; seemed similar to those Arab units. Don't bother with non-siege engine gunpowder units at all. No need for spears for the German factions in VI as Friedman are better by far. Probably others - just none come to mind off the top of my head.

[Martok]

I will admit I've never really seen the point of training Urban Militia.

[LordK9]

I want to know how nmy post got on there twice; notice the minutes are simply reversed (24/42)?

[Martok]

Probably just a forum glitch. It happens.

[LordK9]

Yeah, my thoughts too (but an unsolved mystery).

As far as useless units, how about that AI? When I fight the Spanish (in early, at least), nothing but Jinnetes - a nice auxiliary but not a frontline unit. The Turks are mainly horse archers. In fact, archers of all types seem to be over built making enemies a walkover. Worse, once available, its all crossbows and regular archers eat them alive.

[HopAlongBunny]

The AI seems to have a handicap re: unit selection.

Probably related to cost effectiveness; bows are cheap and do good damage=>moar bows pls!

The worst is faction reemergence: omg! the Sicilians are back! 3stacks ohh nooo!!1 hmm, ballista, catapults, and archers....

[drone]

The French AI in a vanilla game is just non-stop peasants and ballista. So happy I have modded them out.

I will admit I've never really seen the point of training Urban Militia.

Started a Early game with the English recently. UMs are decent to temporarily bulk up the stranded mainland armies until spears come online. After that, no more recruiting and existing units will be sacrificed against enemy heavy cav.

[DEB8]

Started a Early game with the English recently. UMs are decent to temporarily bulk up the stranded mainland armies until spears come online. After that, no more recruiting and existing units will be sacrificed against enemy heavy cav.

I found UM's very useful until after the Early period had ceased / Halibards became available, particularly against armoured units.

[drone]

I found UM's very useful until after the Early period had ceased / Halibards became available, particularly against armoured units.

If your faction lacks AP, Militia Sergeants are better and have the same upkeep costs. The low builds reqs for UMs give you some infantry prior to Spearmaker/Swordsmith construction if the faction isn't blessed with Vikings/Slavs/Woodsmen/Clansmen. And with Peasants modded out, you need something early for garrisons. But their stats are just awful...

[ferdi]

UM is the source of stars. so they are usefull. early are is the time of them.
AI usually gives them star (1-5) but not spears. so they are soo usufull until feodal-man comes, or order foots.
I dont like jevelins but in early u have to use them.
sometimes number is more important for troublesome neighbours and for loyalty with low cost.

[Axalon]

Take this with a healthy dose of salt, but... Well, personally I am under the impression that most units in raw MTW are more or less useless (roughly speaking... Even more so in V.2.01 with its 5000 different and extra versions/clones of spears etc. etc. All on general terms of course).

Maybe its just me?

- A

[DEB8]

If your faction lacks AP, Militia Sergeants are better and have the same upkeep costs. The low builds reqs for UMs give you some infantry prior to Spearmaker/Swordsmith construction if the faction isn't blessed with Vikings/Slavs/Woodsmen/Clansmen. And with Peasants modded out, you need something early for garrisons. But their stats are just awful...

I knew there was a unit or two between UM and Halibards! Couldn't recall them ( it's been a while since I actually played MTW ). I moved to Militia Sergeants as soon as I could for my armies and moved the UM's to garrision duties. Um's have their uses, but they are poor and comparitivily speaking they get poorer.

[DEB8]

UM is the source of stars. so they are usefull. early are is the time of them.
AI usually gives them star (1-5) but not spears. so they are soo usufull until feodal-man comes, or order foots.

Yes, I was suprised at this when I played last. I had one or two 3* UM's and a 6* one if I recall correctly. I used them as generals for defensive armies where I did not expect an attack ( border with Denmark for the 6*). I "armoured up" mine, but I am not sure it helped them much.

Um's were quite useful against the Scots and Irish as I recall.

[caravel]

***Sniff, sniff***

Not too late for a resurrection...

***Slaughters chicken, utters the sacred words, etc...***

I have only the vanilla MTW (no Russian Spears, no Heavy Steppe Cav, etc) so I still find myself training light steppe cav when I conquor eastward with a western european power (no horse archers). Hobilars are basically a slower, slightly cheaper steppe cav (trading one attack for one defense point). The extra speed (vs hobilars) seems to work well for the years leading up to allowing the prov to be able to produce mounted sgts, imo.

I agree... also base stats aren't everything in MTW, some units only come into their own with upgraded morale or a regional + master level valour bonus (e.g. clansmen). I like light cavalry, but many do not know how to best utilise any cavalry properly except heavy. Someone said that vanilla horse archers could be used for chasing routers, they're also one of the weakest melee units in the game and can take heavy losses doing so. I would rather have one unit of light cav for this purpose. Light cavalry are not just good for pursuing routers however, they can be invaluable for disrupting formations of archers or javelinmen.

Javelins; except for the exceptional Jinette :)

Javelins are truly useless - especially in the hands of the AI. I have been experimenting with some slav javelins and kerns lately and it has only reaffirmed my opinion. Even on hold formation, rather than skirmish, deployed directly in front of the battle line they are a dismal failure, as they can never seem to get a volley off before being charged head on. They're a little useful as bait I suppose, as they serve to lure enemy cavalry onto your waiting spears/pikes... but if they get caught up, they can trigger a chain rout.

Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built.

Urban Militia are made redundant by Militia Sergeants, but early on they are useful if you have nothing else (e.g. Ghazis, Woodsmen, Vikings). Axe units are valuable as flankers, especially against cavalry, due to their AP ability. It's all about combined arms tactics. Spears are good pinning units (i.e. they are good at tying up cavalry and dying slowly) but using them alone to counter cavalry is a waste. Once the spears have the cavarly units engaged, you should bring in flanking units to do the actual killing. In the high era this is going to be the pole arms, such as the bills, halberdiers or JHI, but in early the axe units are best for this.

As far as useless units, how about that AI? When I fight the Spanish (in early, at least), nothing but Jinnetes - a nice auxiliary but not a frontline unit. The Turks are mainly horse archers. In fact, archers of all types seem to be over built making enemies a walkover. Worse, once available, its all crossbows and regular archers eat them alive.

This is because in auto resolve battles (the type of battle always played out in AI vs AI encounters) only the melee stats of units are taken into account.

There are too many x bow units in the vanilla game, it's that simple really. I usually mod the pavise variety to italian only and remove the standard ones from their roster, the arbalests can also be moved to late era only, making standard x bows more relevant.
@ferdi / @DEB8: UM are not really the source of the stars. Those are "hero generals" you are seeing who are set to appear at certain dates. In a typical English or French campaign, they don't appear as spear units due to the "general candidate" parameter. I believe this is set to as low as possible for spears, but is a notch or two higher for UM. If you train any hobilars you'll see most of those generals leading those units instead.

[Gilrandir]

Once the spears have the cavarly units engaged, you should bring in flanking units to do the actual killing. In the high era this is going to be the pole arms, such as the bills, halberdiers or JHI, but in early the axe units are best for this.

In high era I do better than that. I don't use 2 units to counter 1 unit of cavalry. If you have polearms you don't need any spears to pin the cavs. The polearms both pin the cavs and do actual killing. You may help with the latter by flanking or/and rear-smiting with you own cavalry.

[caravel]

Spears have the advantage of 100/200 man units and tend to be cheaper to produce and support than polearms and are sufficient to hold the line. Besides having attacking units like polearms just standing there taking the pain doesn't sit right with me... if you mean that you use them aggressively against the AI cavalry, that would work in many cases - i.e. bodyguard units would be easy pickings, but not in the 3 hour battles against multiple waves of the GH MHC units...

I've even got good results with valoured up vanilla spearman with armour and morale upgrades when playing as the Byz - once the cavalry are held, bring the VG and Byzie infantry in on their flanks and it's all over...

In my experience most of the polearms - except for the JHI - are overrated, certainly halbs have pathetic morale are are too slow and bills just aren't armoured enough to survive prolonged melee...

I suppose it all depends on how you play the game. I play offensive battles very defensively and offensively at the same time. I like to keep my foot archers and x bows protected behind a spear wall and then advance the entire formation toward the enemy. This falls apart quickly if enemy cavalry can get to my missiles (I prefer that missiles do most of the killing) - and I don't want my offensive units tied up protecting the missiles, so that's where spears come in...

[LordK9]

I usually put my archers ahead of the spears then retreat them through them as an attack develops. Otherwise, my archers are often out of range while my spears are picked apart.

I mentioned that I rarely build militia sergeants which you commented on. I never bumped this for that but that was after i had only played as the early "easy" factions (played exclusively VI prior to that) so I always had ax units. I now agree with you although I mainly use them as garrison units. Except in VI, there really isn't that much armor to deal with early on other then Saracen infantry.

I am currently playing the Hungarians and I find that, for them, feudal sergeants are fairly useless as the armored spearmen arrive at the same time and do just as well (as far as I can tell) but have a lower maintenance cost.

[Stazi]

There is no thing like useless unit. I think people underestimate some units because they don't need them. If you play right your army is usually more advanced than any AI army. Because each side can field maximum of 16 units technological superiority plays a big role. But if you start with a small, poor faction or use a challenging mod things change a lot. You just don't have enough time or money to build all needed infrastructure. You have to fight immediately with a limited variety of simple units. This is where the fun starts. There is no bigger sanctification than winning a battle against an enemy which army is superior in every aspect (better units, better general, more soldiers, higher morale. etc.). This is the moment when units like horse archers start to shine. I love horse archers. I've won a lot of normally hopeless battles with support of 2 mere HA units. They are pathetic at first look but they don't really need to kill anybody. There are the best at running around and drawing attention of as many units as they can. One HA unit can easily be chased by 2-3 enemy units while the rest of enemy army still advancing towards your main forces. It means that you can locally outnumber the enemy. 14 units of yours against 10-12 of the enemy is usually enough to start the fleeing chain reaction. All that HAs need is a little morale boost to counter the penalties when they are running far away from the army and general with bunch of enemy soldiers on their backs.

[caravel]

I usually put my archers ahead of the spears then retreat them through them as an attack develops. Otherwise, my archers are often out of range while my spears are picked apart.

I'd rather my spears were "deflecting" arrows, than have archers up front soaking them up... I tend to put x bows up front, as when deployed behind the lines they have a tendency to shoot their friends in the back (or not shoot at all in trying not to)... it all depends on, the battle, the terrain, etc though... crossbows at least have some armour, whereas vanilla archers have none at all and a -2 defence penalty.

Relying on skirmish mode is another "best laid plans", tactic, it's better to turn it off and use drag selection and then CTRL+R to quickly redeploy missile units behind the lines.

I mentioned that I rarely build militia sergeants which you commented on. I never bumped this for that but that was after i had only played as the early "easy" factions (played exclusively VI prior to that) so I always had ax units. I now agree with you although I mainly use them as garrison units. Except in VI, there really isn't that much armor to deal with early on other then Saracen infantry.

There are various armoured cavalry (including bodyguards) around in the early era such as kats, FMAA, saracens, AHC and others - but yes the heavier armour comes later on and this is where the axe units come in handy...

I am currently playing the Hungarians and I find that, for them, feudal sergeants are fairly useless as the armored spearmen arrive at the same time and do just as well (as far as I can tell) but have a lower maintenance cost.

Feudal Sergeants: Charge 5, Melee 0, Defence -1, Armour 1, Morale 2
Armoured Spearmen: Charge 5, Melee -1, Defence 2, Armour 3, Morale 0

Statistically Armoured Spearmen are indeed better value for money, in fact they're more comparable to Chiv Sergeants/Saracens:

Charge 5, Melee -1, Defence 3, Armour 3, Morale 0

As with all spears they benefit from the large shield and cavalry attack/defence bonuses (1/4) and the +2 from "hold formation" (-2 attack).

To see what is really going on, the F1 during battle is invaluable...

(bill/halberd units get 3/1 cavalry attack defence - thus they are not as good defensively)

[caravel]

There is no thing like useless unit.

Peasants, ballistae and javelins.

I think people underestimate some units because they don't need them.

This is very true... everyone has their own preferences as to how to get the job done. I don't really play just to win, but to win with style and minimal losses. This is why I dislike the idea of placing expensive polearm units at the front and watching them get shot at and charged...

If you play right your army is usually more advanced than any AI army. Because each side can field maximum of 16 units technological superiority plays a big role.

Well not necessarily, because even a technologically superior force can get worn down, run out of ammo, boil in their armour in the desert, etc... and then the AI can bring on reinforcements of vanilla HAs...

What does play a big role in SP battles is terrain and a good general. General's stars turn cowards into killers. So if you have FS with a 7 star general and the AI has CS with a 3 star, it's obvious who has superiority...

But if you start with a small, poor faction or use a challenging mod things change a lot. You just don't have enough time or money to build all needed infrastructure. You have to fight immediately with a limited variety of simple units. This is where the fun starts.

Absolutely agreed on that point - making do with the mediocre units is what makes the game. If anyone gets to the point of "why bother when I can spam and bumrush tons of huscarles?" - they may as well play RTW (+)...

There is no bigger sanctification than winning a battle against an enemy which army is superior in every aspect (better units, better general, more soldiers, higher morale. etc.).

Agreed.

This is the moment when units like horse archers start to shine. I love horse archers. I've won a lot of normally hopeless battles with support of 2 mere HA units. They are pathetic at first look but they don't really need to kill anybody. There are the best at running around and drawing attention of as many units as they can. One HA unit can easily be chased by 2-3 enemy units while the rest of enemy army still advancing towards your main forces. It means that you can locally outnumber the enemy. 14 units of yours against 10-12 of the enemy is usually enough to start the fleeing chain reaction. All that HAs need is a little morale boost to counter the penalties when they are running far away from the army and general with bunch of enemy soldiers on their backs.

Absolutely...

HAs suffer from the "benny hill code" (constant retreat) which means that they will suffer morale penalties and rout from constantly avoiding engagement. To offset this order them to attack and then cancel it every now and again and it will be reset.

Units under missile fire suffer morale penalties as do those without flank protection, HAs can pull off both of these very effectively. In the case of Turcoman Horse they can also be ordered to charge once they've worn down the enemy units enough - which is why they are one of my personal favourites.