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Thread: Engineering Civil War

  1. #1
    Philosophically Inclined Member CountMRVHS's Avatar
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    Default Engineering Civil War

    Any how-to hints for this?

    My latest campaign was an Expert, High, GA, Hungarian campaign. I was taking things slow & turtling; all went well for the first 50 years or so. I ruled a little 5-province kingdom including the 3 original Hungarian lands plus Serbia and Wallachia. Money was good and I was teching up reasonably well.

    The Golden Horde made things difficult, however. They punched through the Polish province of Moldavia and then within a few years drove me out of Carpathia. I took it back in a couple years, but it was around this time I noticed my king (a 2-star drunkard) was in his 40s and had no male heirs other than his 39-year-old brother.

    I got the 2 of them married off quickly but after several years no male heirs showed up. Things looked grim but I figured once the king died his brother, Prince Bela, must have been making babies in the past several years since his marriage, and chances are some of them would be boys. So Bela needed to stay alive.

    Sadly, that's when the Turks decided to invade Hungary from Bulgaria. The King and Prince Bela were both in the province & fought in the battle, which was a disaster: Bela was slain and the King driven to the castle. The Hungarian empire was now cut in half and led by a besieged 58-year-old drunkard with NO male heirs. My allies the Germans drove the Turks out of Hungary for me a year later, but that still didn't solve my heir problem.

    Next turn I got an announcement about disloyal generals: sure enough, I had armies in Carpathia, Wallachia, Serbia, and Croatia led by 3, 2, 1, or even 0-shield generals. I figured a civil war was my only option, so over the next few years I gathered my disloyal generals, put them in charge of big armies, kept my king and the loyal generals in Hungary, and even tried assassinating some of those loyal generals, hoping the failed assassination would trigger the civil war.

    Well, it didn't. At the age of 62 my king died heirless and my Hungarian kingdom was plunged into anarchy.

    So, what do all of you do to get civil wars in your own faction? Civil war in this case would have saved me for at least a couple more years and I might have gone down fighting instead -- might even have managed to hold on and last through the end of the game. I'd love to hear some stories/tips.

    CountMRVHS

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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Sure fire civil war -- lose a Crusade. Never tried it myself, but I guess if you launch a crusade then next turn destroy the chapter house, you're bound to have a civil war, I'm sure!

    But it sounds like you did all the right things to provoke one last time, no idea why that didn't work. Did you leave any spies hanging around? They may have helped suppress the revolt if they were counterspying, and you can also try treason trials as I believe this drives down loyalty as generals don't like being framed
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    Dragon Knight Member Betito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    As an addition to losing crusades, try to get your king into an island with no port(rhodes, crete, matla, or something like that should do). That will lower the loyalty of all your generals significantly(i am suming your king has at least 4 or 5 of influence)

    That usually does the trick for me.
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    It's easy as a muslim or crusading catholic. Just build a chapter house/ribat then 'train' 3 crusade/jihad markers and then just destroy the chapter house/ribat. Instant civil war.

    As the Orthodox or non crusading catholic the best way to get a crusade going is not to separate your king from the mainland, as that way you will get revolts in many of your provinces. This is not a civil war. The most expedient method is to repeatedly send a few peasant forces into battles they cannot win, then try your loyal generals for treason to reduce their loyalty.

    In either case once you're ready, the loyal and disloyal need to be separated into two camps in order to influence who controls which provinces when the faction divides. The king should be in a province on his own or perhaps with some of the other loyalists, as the units in his province won't defect. The loyalists need to be dvided and placed in situations where they can't win or take control of any decent provinces. It's not easy to get it perfectly right but you can do a better job of it than just leaving the AI to it.

    I had to do this once with my 60 year old heirless king. Racing against the clock to try to precent my faction from dying out.

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    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    How to Engineer a Civil War

    Step 1: Play as the Germans

    THE END




    But seriously, Caravel's tips above are solid...

    Strip your spies from your provinces and give all of your armies to your most disloyal generals. Bribed Muslim/Orthodox rebels are perfect. Strip any governorships they may currently have and try them for treason repeatedly with zero star spies. Try your sons for treason too.

    Keep your king in a far corner of your empire, away from your disloyal generals, and commanding a stack of the MOST loyal generals. Fail at everything. Go into battle and fight like a pansy.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Strip your spies from your provinces and give all of your armies to your most disloyal generals
    I thought that regardless of the general, stacks will break up with units siding with both loyalists and rebels?

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    Member Member danfda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    I thought that regardless of the general, stacks will break up with units siding with both loyalists and rebels?
    Actually, so did I, but I've only had a civil war once, due to a failed crusade. It was wicked...
    "Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?"

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    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    I thought that regardless of the general, stacks will break up with units siding with both loyalists and rebels?
    Not in my experience. Stacks remain intact when a civil war breaks out (unless of course you'd split them up beforehand). That's why generals are so key; whoever's in charge of the stack will dictate way the entire army goes (loyalist or rebel) in case of civil wars.
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    Man behind the screen Member Empirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Everything that lowers your king's influence is important for triggering the civil war: Losing battles (though preferably no provinces...), betraying allies, losing battles, failed assassination/spying attempts, losing battles, and of course pissing off the pope. Try to get excommunicated! I had two civil wars the moment I was excommunicated in two games I played a while back.
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    Chief Biscuit Monitor Member professorspatula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Don't forget to burn and assassinate your own king and princes every now and again - that seems to lower loyalty nicely. I'm actually addicted to killing off any princes I take an instant dislike to. And Kings. And why not - my assassins and grand inquisitors get fed up working away from home. In my last campaign I don't think a king ever had more than one son alive at a time. The poor monarchs Still, the weaklings must be eradicated from the gene pool for the good of the people!
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    Senior Member Senior Member Jxrc's Avatar
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    Red face Re: Engineering Civil War

    Something that happened last Saturday... Not really engineefing but could perhaps help ...

    Playing as the Sicilian. Despite a slow start, everything going ok (Malta, Sicily, Naples, Corsica, Sardigna, Rhodes, Chyprus, Crete, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, ships in every square).

    Egyptian a bit too strong for my liking (starting invading Venice, Muscovy, etc) so build two crusades in Corsica and Sardigna) and plan to sink their ships.

    Plan put into motion, all their ships are sunk except one near Malta. Complete fortress in Malta, king dies, new king pop up in Malta ... Cut out from the rest of the realm. Rebellion in Norway, Corsica and Naples. Side with the loyalist and rout all rebels ... In Corsica they retreat to the keep and kaboom I loose the two crusade markers

    Second civil war in a row ... Side with the rebels this time ... Get rid of the loyalist everywhere but in Sardigna they retreat to the keep .... Two more crusades markers down the drain ...

    Third Civil war ... Could only keep Rhodes and Malta because the AI factions had grasped the pattern and taken all the rest from me ... One star king, two poor island, four units of peasants and one feudal seargeant ... Plenty of ships (but nothing to trade ), loads of cash.... World conquest does not seem an option

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    Member Member Dead Knight of the Living's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    I'm a firm believer that every thread needs a stupid question askerer. I'll be that guy for this thread. Here goes.

    Why would you want to instigate a Civil War in your own territories? I had two civil wars as the HRE. They set me back quite a bit. So what is it you all know about Civil Wars that I don't?
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    Member Member Matty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Because if you have a king and no heirs and the king dies, the game is over. If you have a civil war, you get a new king - hopefully with a little more lead in his pencil - and can continue

  14. #14

    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Marrying your princesses to your sons seems to be a good way to cause disloyalty, other than that just fail a few crusades and get excommunicated (and try your high ranking generals for treason)

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    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Knight of the Living
    I'm a firm believer that every thread needs a stupid question askerer. I'll be that guy for this thread. Here goes.

    Why would you want to instigate a Civil War in your own territories? I had two civil wars as the HRE. They set me back quite a bit. So what is it you all know about Civil Wars that I don't?
    For answer, I'll cite an example I've used in other threads: I had a Danish campaign a couple years ago where I deliberately started a civil war. The reason I did so was that I had an absolutely terrible king--he had almost no influence, piety, dread, command, or acumen. Even worse, he had just ascended to the throne at a young age (I believe he was only 18-19 at the time), which meant that I would have been stuck with him for a loooong time.

    On the other hand, I had three uncles who were all much better suited to ruling an empire. One of them in particular had good stats--6 piety, 5 dread, 8 command, 7 acumen, etc. In my case, it was a no-brainer to find someone who would help my current king shuffle loose the mortal coil. Klling my king was a snap; he was so worthless, that he was taken out by a rookie 0-star assassin!

    (Of course, things didn't go exactly as I'd planned. When civil war broke out, my two younger uncles opposed my older "super-uncle"--I'd hoped that one of the younger uncles would back the older one, but no such luck. I ended up choosing the "Rebels" led by the two younger uncles, as that way I would still have an heir should my new king be killed. I eventually triumphed over my uber-uncle, and reunited the Danish empire.)

    So to sum up: If you have a bad faction leader with no direct heirs, it's sometimes worthwhile to trigger a civil war to get rid of him.
    Last edited by Martok; 10-24-2006 at 22:10.
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    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Spot on.

    Also, some people actually like to do it for roleplaying purposes. Like getting the Karolingian dynasty in power over Germany for historical reasons or whatever...

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    Member Member Dead Knight of the Living's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    For answer, I'll cite an example I've used in other threads: I had a Danish campaign a couple years ago where I deliberately started a civil war. The reason I did so was that I had an absolutely terrible king--he had almost no influence, piety, dread, command, or acumen. Even worse, he had just ascended to the throne at a young age (I believe he was only 18-19 at the time), which meant that I would have been stuck with him for a loooong time!

    On the other hand, I had three uncles who were all much better suited to ruling an empire! One of them in particular had good stats--6 piety, 5 dread, 8 command, 7 acumen, etc. In my case, it was a no-brainer to find someone who would help my current king shuffle loose the mortal coil. Klling my king was a snap; was so worthless, that he was taken out by a rookie 0-star assassin!

    (Of course, things didn't go exactly as I'd planned. When civil war broke out, my two younger uncles opposed my older "super-uncle"--I'd hoped that one of the younger uncles would back the older one, but no such luck. I ended up choosing the "Rebels" led by the two younger uncles, as that way I would still have an heir should my new king be killed. I eventually triumphed over my uber-uncle, and reunited the Danish empire!)

    So to sum up: If you have a bad faction leader with no direct heirs, it's sometimes worthwhile to trigger a civil war to get rid of him.
    WOW, thanks for that answer. I never thought about all that. WHen I have a sorry king I just suck it up and drive on with him. Or I charge him in battle and let him get killed.

    I'll have to remember all this next time I have a dirtbag on the throne.
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    I've never fully understood what influence if any a king with high piety, acumen and dread has. For instance the only things I value in a king are influence and command ability, so i've seen any value in the rest, i've never bothered reading the manual or look to see what effect a new king with different levels of ability has on the economy.

    So for example, would my empire overall make 50% less money if I had a king with 3 acumen as opposed to 6 acumen? Does piety in the king influence zeal? and does dread simply give you a loyalty boost from provinces in a general? I do know that alot of piety makes death by inquisition less likely but is that the only use it has in a king?

  19. #19
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    I believe the increase in income was 10% per quill of acumen, so if your king has only 3 quills instead of 6 the difference in income should be 30% or even less. I am not quite sure here.
    Piety just as command and acumen I think determines the initial influence of your king, when he ascends to the throne. I am not sure what effect it could have on loyalty - I have never bothered to check. It is important, however, in determining how many units go into a crusade or jihad - the higher the piety, the more units you get. Unfortunately I am not sure if this also determines the quality of the units, but it most deffinetly determines the quantity. From time to time, the Pope tends to give out money to particularly pious rulers. The Hungarians in the early game are a good example, and they usually receive this papal support a few times at elast, especially if they expand into neghboring lands with predominantly non-catholic population - such as Serbia, Wallachia and Moldova. The starting English king in early I think also has a lot of crosses and I have had the Pope make a nice little donation to my cause when playing with the English.

    I am wondering - how do you increase a ruler's piety apart from launching sucvcessful crusades and jihads?

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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    I had this dillema as the Irish in VI. I had unified Ireland and conquered most of the Welsh territories. (I was keeping the Welsh alive as a sort of client kingdom in Guent to stop resurgences).

    My King was old, no heirs. I tried everything. The King was with a couple of units in a single province in Ireland. My good generals were gathered together and put under the command of my excellent general, who was stripped of all titles and lands, and investigated by a spy. Every other province was under the command of a man with 0 loyalty. I launched a string of single unit naval attacks on Rheget (which were of course lost).

    It didn't work. I re-loaded, and tried again, and it still didn't work. Annoying.

    I wish there could be wars of succession (like civil wars, but the faction splinters into more smaller groups.
    Last edited by Myrddraal; 10-24-2006 at 17:37.

  21. #21
    Passionate MTW peasant Member Deus ret.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
    I believe the increase in income was 10% per quill of acumen, so if your king has only 3 quills instead of 6 the difference in income should be 30% or even less. I am not quite sure here.
    well that's correct.....for governors. With the king, the influence of this rating is not that great. I tried it out and killed off my 7-acumen king to have his meek 2-acumen brother ascend the throne, and my income dropped - but not really substantially and the greatest part I believe was due to the new ruler not being a steward.

    as for the rest - I'm not sure, either. I always thought that a comparably high piety rating meant 1) higher average piety value with new generals and 2) higher zeal rates in the provinces, which in turn would cause their governors to aquire the 'fanatic' line of traits, raising zeal (and their own piety) even more.

    I never experienced any recordable effect of a high or low dread rating with a ruler so further research would be appreciated.....

    @Myrddraal: I think if your territory's too small (number of provinces) then no civil war will occur...no wait you had already conquests in Wales..... erm forget it [sweat]
    Last edited by Deus ret.; 10-24-2006 at 17:38.
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  22. #22
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by _Aetius_
    I've never fully understood what influence if any a king with high piety, acumen and dread has. For instance the only things I value in a king are influence and command ability, so i've seen any value in the rest, i've never bothered reading the manual or look to see what effect a new king with different levels of ability has on the economy.
    Truth be told, I don't think it's ever really been established just how exactly a faction leader's piety, dread, and acumen affects his empire. Playing MTW as long as I have, I'm reasonably certain that they *do* have an effect, but I've never been able to tell to what extent.

    I suspect that overall the effect of the faction leader's piety/dread/acumen is fairly minimal, although it's still greater than 0. (As a hypothetical example, perhaps kings add maybe 1-2% to income for every point of acumen, whereas governors add more like 8-10% per acumen point.) This would make sense from a gameplay standpoint, as otherwise faction leaders with great stats would give their faction an overwhelming advantage. (Could you imagine how insane/ridiculous it would be if an 8-acumen king gave ALL his provinces an 60-80% boost to income? On the other hand, a 5-15% bonus would be more reasonable.)

    It's also my experience/opinion that a faction leader's Dread rating works similarly to his Acumen: His dread improves the happiness ratings in all his provinces, but its effect is much more diluted when compared to the effect of the dread rating of the governor directly in charge of a particular province. (So a governor with a dread rating of only 3 is still probably going to have a bigger influence on his province's happiness than the far-away king who has a dread rating of 7.)

    As for a faction leader's piety.... I'm less sure about how that works and what effect it has (if any). I've noticed that there seems to be a tenuous connection between it and the piety of his generals (and possibly the zeal of his provinces), but I won't swear to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
    I am wondering - how do you increase a ruler's piety apart from launching sucvcessful crusades and jihads?
    If you're playing a Muslim or Orthodox faction, I'm afraid that's pretty much it. If you're Catholic, you can have a Grand Inquisitor try him for heresey, which can boost his piety by 2-4 points. This is not guaranteed, however, and could actually backfire. Your faction leader could develop the various Atheist vices--and that's not even mentioning the possiblity that you might accidentally convict your leader and have him burned at the stake for withcraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deus ret.
    @Myrddraal: I think if your territory's too small (number of provinces) then no civil war will occur...no wait you had already conquests in Wales..... erm forget it
    Actually, I think you're right, Deus ret. I find it completely impossible to get a civil war--at least in the manner that Myrddraal attempted--if I have less than 10-12 provinces. In order to get a general to rebel against my king, I generally have to have a pretty huge empire for that to happen. That's not proof of anything of course, but it might explain why Myrddraal was unable to foment a successful rebellion.

    On the other hand, civil wars between royal uncles (like from my Danish campaign) can happen at any time, provided the correct conditions have been met. I could've had 2 provinces in that Danish game, and I still would've been looking at a civil war. (Any of us who've played the HRE could probably confirm that as well. )
    Last edited by Martok; 10-24-2006 at 23:35.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    i just got 3 civil wars at the start of my turks campaign

    The first one i did on purpose, a 50 year old Sultan with no heirs isnt good news. I placed him in a provence with a few men and then tried all my other generals for treason 5 times in 1 turn. At the start of the next i get a civil war and back the rebels (3 provences, 1600 men vs 1 provence and 200 men).

    All is going good at this point, ive started a war against Egypt, gotten 3 heirs (all with 8 command stars ~)) and my economy is thriving. Then i get disaster, half my generals, including one heir turn on me and my force is split down the middle! Two full stacks went rebel and Egypt took their lands back.

    It took me another 10 years to build decent armies back up, but once i'd done it i declared Jihads on the provences Egypt took and sent my men southwards. We took the first provence (Tripoli) but in the same turn as my Jihad goes into Palistine the Byzantines turn on me, sending 3 stacks into Palistine, 1 into Rum and 1 into Armenia. This leaves my Jihad fighting against 3 stacks of Byz and 2 of Egyptians and me loosing nearly all my men in the north (we won in Rum and Armenia, but only by about 100 men). The Jihad failed, the Byz took the provence and i was faced with my third and final civil war :( What was left of my forces split in two and as a result the Byzantians destroyed me in the next 3 turns.

    It seems engineering a civil war can backfire quite badly

  24. #24

    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    I just had a civil war in Spain 1098, right at the beginning...

    Everything was building up fine, then the King decided to invade Navarre leaving Castille empty except for some peasants in the fort. He had 2 sons by then.

    One was really good with high loyalty and stars-the works. The other had one loyalty. When the Battle of Navarre finished both sons were moved to Castlle with a smallish army, in the same stack.

    Civil war broke out the next year.The king was still celebrating in Navarre.

    So what triggered the civil war?

    And in any particular stack, how is the "leader" determined- ie the one who comes up when you click on that stack?
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    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    @satchef1: I don't think you really did anything wrong, though (in your Turk campaign). You did the smart thing by deliberately triggering the first civil war, as I think you already know. It's just that you suffered an amazing run of bad luck after that, which caused two more civil wars in turn. Such a phenomenon is unusual (and I've experienced it myself in a couple different campaigns), but it does happen from time to time. All you can do is weather the storm as best you're able, and if necessary start a new game if it proves to be too much. It's not like triggering your first civil war was a bad decision--I'd have done the *exact* same thing in your shoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    So what triggered the civil war?
    That depends on a number of factors. Were both your sons with their dad when he invaded Navarre? And when *exactly* did the civil war break out? Before the princes returned to Castille, or after? Also, which units/provinces rebelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    And in any particular stack, how is the "leader" determined- ie the one who comes up when you click on that stack?
    1.) If your faction leader is present, he will command the battle.

    2.) If your faction leader is not present, whichever unit leader has the most stars will command the battle.

    3.) If two or more unit leaders have the same number of stars, then the unit that's the most "noble" will command the battle.
    1st example: You have an army stack that includes a unit of RK's, Mounted Seargents, and Spearmen; and the leaders of all 3 units each have 2 stars. In this example, the captain of the Royal Knights would be in command of the army stack.
    2nd example: Same army, only there are no RK's this time--just the MS and spearmen. In this case, the captain of the Mounted Seargents would be the army commander.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  26. #26

    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Hello, Martok.

    i m afraid I didnt take close notes and the civil war was a surprise. However, only the King was involved in the Navarre offensive. The two sons were together in Leon.

    After they both returned to Castille the rebellion took place.The units Im not sure about.


    But the second issue might be related...when you have stacks in the fort or just hanging around in a province-say with archers, Urbs, spearmen etc- when you click them one comes up as "leader". How is he determined if he does nt have stars?

    In one stack you might have a mixture of unit types, so which one clicks up?
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  27. #27
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    In one stack you might have a mixture of unit types, so which one clicks up?
    Assuming all command stars are equal (usually zero ) and no-one has a title, then it seems to be the highest-tech unit. Cavalry seems to trump infantry, chivs trump feuds etc. and having some vice or virtue (and it can be a bad one - like "Good runner"...) seems to have an effect. I'm not sure about this though: weapon and armour upgrades may help, too.

    Also depends on whether the army is garrisoned or a free-standing stack - check it out sometime - the general often changes when an army is put into the stronghold and taken out again - I think things like militia units take precedence in garrisons.
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  28. #28
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    The younger heir also tends to lead when everything else is equal.


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  29. #29
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    Hello, Martok.

    i m afraid I didnt take close notes and the civil war was a surprise. However, only the King was involved in the Navarre offensive. The two sons were together in Leon.

    After they both returned to Castille the rebellion took place.The units Im not sure about.
    Okay, I should've asked this before: *Who* exactly rebelled? Just your low-loyalty prince, or did he have some fellow conspirators? And was he in command of a stack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    But the second issue might be related...when you have stacks in the fort or just hanging around in a province-say with archers, Urbs, spearmen etc- when you click them one comes up as "leader". How is he determined if he does nt have stars?

    In one stack you might have a mixture of unit types, so which one clicks up?
    If there are no knights in the stack, then as a general rule the leader of whichever unit you last dropped into the stack will be that stack's commander. A unit of cavalry isn't guaranteed to lead the stack unless it's some type of knight--I've had a few Spanish armies commanded by FS, even though there were also Jinnettes in the army as well.

    If there is more than one unit of knights in at stack, then I believe that it's Royal-->Chivalric-->Feudal. So if there's a unit of RK's and a unit of FK's in the same stack, the leader of the RK's will be the general. Of course, it's very rare for a situation like that to ever occur in first place--at least one of the knights is most likely going to have 1 or more stars--so I can't say that with absolute certainty. It's simply consistent with the few times I've personally seen such a situation in the game.
    Last edited by Martok; 10-31-2006 at 02:09.
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  30. #30
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineering Civil War

    If there are no knights in the stack, then as a general rule the leader of whichever unit you last dropped into the stack will be that stack's commander
    I've seen this too, but it's only temporary - if you move focus to another stack then back again (or do a "merge" command on the stack) you'll find the general has changed back to whatever the usual precedence would be.
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