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Thread: Total Warhammer?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Firstly pretty much every 'ordinary' infantry, cavalry, artillery, chariot or whatnot in WHFB has a TW counterpart - orcs are just particularly tough and poorly disciplined heavy infantry and so on.

    For magic http://diceofdoom.com/blog/series/wa...r-magic-guide/ gives a summary of the spells available - wizards generally choose one of 8 lores which have 6 spells each and these generally either act as magical artillery or augment or demoralise your own or enemy units and thus mostly have TW equivalent effects - a fireball from a catapult and one from a wizard are pretty much the same thing.

    What is problematic in TW terms are the uber-powerful single heroes and monsters who have tended to get more and more powerful and unbalanced with each edition as GW decided that they'd rather sell insanely expensive metal special figures (a single chaos warlord figure will set you back £30 and an elf on a dragon £32.50) than units of plastic orcs or whatever - AFAIK there's no TW equivalent for a single godlike superhero mounted on a dragon or griffin who can just drop out of the sky anywhere on the battlefield and annihilate whole units.

  2. #32
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    I think you will find that the old Herohammer had more powerful heroes.

    I had in the earliest edition an High Elf Princess and her banner man er elf, face down an army of Orcs.
    She had a couple of basic units with her, a ballista and a small unit of war dancers on the flank. I field approximately two dozen models, the opponent about ten times that. Yet because this was Mighty Empires banners fighting I had twice the points on the field and most of them on the heros.

    The magic items and stat lines where over powered in the earliest editions.
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  3. #33
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobin View Post
    AFAIK there's no TW equivalent for a single godlike superhero mounted on a dragon or griffin who can just drop out of the sky anywhere on the battlefield and annihilate whole units.
    A triple gold chevron General's bodyguard in M2TW. You can kill entire armies with that one unit. Not that that's a good thing.


  4. #34
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    We had swordmaster in MI. That was one big red men using a huge katana. This was some kind of hero and counted as a whole unit in terms of flanking and rearing.
    It took you almost a full monk unit to kill one of them, they mostly died by fatigue since they had some kind of fatigue blocker to ensure, the one men doesnt get killed too soon.

    I dont see a problem with hero units in a TW game. In general its possible, the question is, if this good for the basic idea of the game?!?!
    Imo its not a good thing. These units was a nightmare, not as a frontal unit, but as a sneak unit, which cant really get blocked. You just moved a "full" unit in the back of your enemy. This is just one example.

    Now transfer this idea into the modern TW game.
    Initially I mentioned to not let the game keeps using the moral system (I personal wouldnt like this).

    Imagine flying units, droping somewhere on the field, invisible units, warp units…
    You have to program a lot new things to make the current battlesystem work. Units which can drop somewhere on the field, have probably no moral effect at all.
    This brings a basic idea back into the game, Imo the game needs a different amount of fear each unit can bring into the battle.
    We had this kind of stuff already, with certain units who cause more fear than other. Im not 100% sure about the stats at this moment, but I remember a few units like camels in MTW.

    This would be the way to work around with magic. While the killing speed has also an fear effect, you could reduce the base fear factor for units which can peak kills to high amounts.

    I hope people can understand what Im writing here….

  5. #35
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    I do understand your concerns, Kocmoc, but you're assuming that this game will be a straight TW game with Warhammer units. I doubt that would be the case. This is a new IP for CA with it's own unique structures and quirks and (more importantly for CA) fanbase. I have a feeling that they will re-use the latest TW engine, but otherwise re-write the game from scratch to better accommodate Warhammer. I would expect that a fundamental part of such a re-write would include adapting the system to better handle heroes and magic.

    I would honestly be very surprised if the game even had Total War in its title. I think it will be, at its heart, a Total War game, but I don't think it will be directly marketed as one. The Warhammer IP is stronger than the Total War IP, so it would be better to lean on the former than the latter.

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  6. #36

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    I really do think they will dumb it down to capture the Warhammer demographic of 14-year old boys with affluent and indulgent parents who are a lot less interested in the strategic elements.

    Plus there just isn't much room for teching up in the canonical WFB universe where the campaigns should zip along at the speed of 2-week turn Napoleon TW rather than previous iterations of MTW and RTW where you had to play a faction for a century before you could recruit any decent units and Hannibal would die of old age before he'd finished marching his army from Spain to Italy.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    A triple gold chevron General's bodyguard in M2TW. You can kill entire armies with that one unit. Not that that's a good thing.
    Played many hundreds of hours of M2TW and never had a single general unit good enough to kill an SP army - but then I always play at the highest difficulty level so my experience might be different.

  8. #38
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobin View Post
    I really do think they will dumb it down to capture the Warhammer demographic of 14-year old boys with affluent and indulgent parents who are a lot less interested in the strategic elements.
    I always thought that the GW tabletop games tends to attract older and more mature audiences simply due to their cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobin View Post
    Played many hundreds of hours of M2TW and never had a single general unit good enough to kill an SP army - but then I always play at the highest difficulty level so my experience might be different.
    I'm not capable of doing it, but I recall FactionHeir obliterating some crazy armies with his general and some assorted low quality units alone in the King of the Romans PBM. Perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit, but he definitely had a reputation for causing ridiculous casualties with his general alone in that game.


  9. #39
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobin View Post
    I really do think they will dumb it down to capture the Warhammer demographic of 14-year old boys with affluent and indulgent parents who are a lot less interested in the strategic elements.

    Plus there just isn't much room for teching up in the canonical WFB universe where the campaigns should zip along at the speed of 2-week turn Napoleon TW rather than previous iterations of MTW and RTW where you had to play a faction for a century before you could recruit any decent units and Hannibal would die of old age before he'd finished marching his army from Spain to Italy.
    You should have played empire then. You can march across France (from the Spanish Netherlands to the Pyrenees) in a single turn.
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  10. #40
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    I do understand your concerns, Kocmoc, but you're assuming that this game will be a straight TW game with Warhammer units. I doubt that would be the case. This is a new IP for CA with it's own unique structures and quirks and (more importantly for CA) fanbase. I have a feeling that they will re-use the latest TW engine, but otherwise re-write the game from scratch to better accommodate Warhammer. I would expect that a fundamental part of such a re-write would include adapting the system to better handle heroes and magic.

    I would honestly be very surprised if the game even had Total War in its title. I think it will be, at its heart, a Total War game, but I don't think it will be directly marketed as one. The Warhammer IP is stronger than the Total War IP, so it would be better to lean on the former than the latter.
    Well, than the game should be turned based and without the current battles.
    I believe that CA will stick to their known system. Campaignmap and the battles.

    How you think should the game be designed?
    Do you expect still battles and if yes, how the battles should look like?


    I bet they will just create a phantasy map with towns and castles, same as we have today on the campaignmaps.
    Than you can create/build units in those towns and at some point you will attack towns or other armies.

    The only thing Im unsure about, are the battles. If they are smart, than they use a hexagonsystem and do the battles turnbased. At least, if you want to adept the tabletop,
    than this would be the best way to get close to the game. This would mean, that the MP part is completely gone, since no one ever will really play
    campaigns online.

    Still, I doubt CA will skip that battlesystem and stick to what they have and what worked for over 10 years already.
    Also there must be some weird people, who think they sell a lot more copies, if they add a lot of "online gaming - MP", you could see that in the S2.
    What I try to tell is, that they dont design/create the best game they can, they try to create the best selling game they can.

    If CA would really care for the best of the game, we never would see a S2 game (same as other version before) hitting the store in this status. This was an early beta.
    This said, they wont bring a complete new thing, alone the working process would need a lot more programmer working on completely new stuff.

    From my experience, I would go and just stick with at least 80% of what I have right now and add 20% new stuff. This would save me a lot of money and also it would lower
    the risk a lot. New games, real new things, are always timeconsuming, this always eats your money, especially as you never know how many time it will need before.

    Anyway, I bet on this. Same kind of TW game, they use the engine, they use the same system. There might be a slight chance of seeing a different battlesystem (as mentioned
    hexagon).

  11. #41
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    I would have assumed if any hexagon system existed it would be to have a Mighty Empires as the turn/seasonal based campaign map followed by an adapted battle system.

    If for MP they adapt the unit selection criteria from tabletop then you would have a situation where only a couple of units at most could be the rare Warp Bell, Dragons or cannons. With a minimum number of basic troops having to be selected first.

    Take the best elements of both systems. Take the lessons learned from tabletop in creating balanced unit unique armies, and it would be a much more MP player friendly game.
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  12. #42

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    A hex-based/turn system might make for a better AI in SP. The AI seems to get better with a reduction in the number of choices available.

    It might not be what delivers the thrill for MP though.
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  13. #43
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
    The only thing Im unsure about, are the battles. If they are smart, than they use a hexagonsystem and do the battles turnbased. At least, if you want to adept the tabletop, than this would be the best way to get close to the game. This would mean, that the MP part is completely gone, since no one ever will really play
    campaigns online.
    I think there is no chance at all that will happen. The Dawn of War games are the only things we really have to compare to and those were real-time. Turn-based strategy tends to be for grognards, and both GW and CA have been trying to broaden their appeal, not double down on the old formula. CA also has no experience with turn-based strategy. If GW wanted a turn-based license, they should have turned to Firaxis or Paradox or some other company. CA makes RTS games. Without turn-based, there's no point in having a hex-grid, so that's unlikely to appear either.

    That said, there's a ton of room in the RTS genre itself to adapt Warhammer rules without just making it look like a mod for a TW game.


  14. #44
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Your forgetting mark of chaos. Which was quite TW like in it's set up.
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  15. #45
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Your forgetting mark of chaos.
    I wish I could...
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  16. #46

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    CA also has no experience with turn-based strategy.
    I disagree. CA have a turn based campaign map game engine which the GW people could utilise rather than building from scratch.

    The campaign map in the first two games was turn based. The new campaign map is also turn based with a movement points system - this reminds me of an old Warhammer 40k game from 10+ years ago and of course games like Fallout/2.
    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    CA makes RTS games.
    I would say that CA makes RTS battles with a turn based game - not pure RTS (C&C/Stronghold/Warcraft style) resource management based fast-clicking games.


  17. #47

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    That raises the question of whether we will be looking at another TW game; turn based strategy with real-time tactical; or something more akin to Warcraft.

    I have to admit, Warhammer makes me think of Warcraft more than TW, although I would prefer a TW style approach.
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  18. #48
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Very true, I suppose I should have said CA has no experience with turn-based combat. You're right that it's not a pure RTS game, but I'm still going to call it RTS. No other genre name fits as well. The entire game is built around the battles. The campaign map was originally created as a means to create different and interesting battles, and it essentially retains that function even today.


  19. #49
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    If you auto calc combat in TW it is turn based.

    I normally play auto calc at first to figure out the economy and tech trees, so it isn't a big if.

    Mighty Empires can be played as hex turned based and just roll a dice for combat resolution or tabletop it out.
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  20. #50

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Very true, I suppose I should have said CA has no experience with turn-based combat. You're right that it's not a pure RTS game, but I'm still going to call it RTS. No other genre name fits as well. The entire game is built around the battles. The campaign map was originally created as a means to create different and interesting battles, and it essentially retains that function even today.
    I don't think it fits any genre. When STW was released, it pretty much defined it's own. In later games the campaign map game became more like other familiar turn based games (AoE/Civ), but the real time battles things was still unique. Yes the battles are in real time, but so is an FPS game, but TW games are not really RTS in my humble opinion.

    As one of the harshest critics of the RTW campaign map, I'd say that the the campaign map game became a game in it's own right rather than just a way to manage battles and string them together into something meaningful (in my opinion from that moment onwards the battles themselves became a mere sideshow...) - so it does seem to me that CA have proven themselves in the turn based war gaming genre.


  21. #51
    Member Member MadKow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Warhammer Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omens (IIRC) are the games to have in mind whem marrying WH with TW.

  22. #52
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    I don't think it fits any genre. When STW was released, it pretty much defined it's own. In later games the campaign map game became more like other familiar turn based games (AoE/Civ), but the real time battles things was still unique. Yes the battles are in real time, but so is an FPS game, but TW games are not really RTS in my humble opinion.
    Actually, I was already familiar with the style the first time I played MTW because of Sid Meier's Gettysburg, which preceded STW by three years. There are huge differences between the two games, but the basic idea of units with large numbers of men on a 3D battlefield slugging it out with flanking, morale, abilities, charges, etc. are all there. It was also real-time with pause for issuing commands, just like the TW series. The main difference is that Gettysburg lacked a campaign map. Wikipedia calls Gettysburg a real-time tactical game, which I suppose fits well. It also called STW a turn-based strategy and real-time tactical game, which I cannot really argue with either. So, I guess I'll call it TBSRTT...
    Last edited by TinCow; 12-23-2012 at 13:53.


  23. #53

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Actually, I was already familiar with the style the first time I played MTW because of Sid Meier's Gettysburg, which preceded STW by three years. There are huge differences between the two games, but the basic idea of units with large numbers of men on a 3D battlefield slugging it out with flanking, morale, abilities, charges, etc. are all there. It was also real-time with pause for issuing commands, just like the TW series. The main difference is that Gettysburg lacked a campaign map. Wikipedia calls Gettysburg a real-time tactical game, which I suppose fits well. It also called STW a turn-based strategy and real-time tactical game, which I cannot really argue with either. So, I guess I'll call it TBSRTT...
    Yes, prior to that there was an old DOS game, Fields of Glory and a few others. The same principle but without the campaign map and not really "total war".

  24. #54
    Member Member MadKow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    Yes, prior to that there was an old DOS game, Fields of Glory and a few others. The same principle but without the campaign map and not really "total war".
    Gettysburg was released in 97, iirc, Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned is from 95, and WH: Dark Omen is a 98 release (iirc). Both were real time tactics. On the strategy level one could reinforce old units and recruit new units, but that was tied to game progression and narrative, not strategical choices. I dont knw the Warhammer Universe, is there a form of economics/cultures behind the military? If so the TW formula would apply directly.

  25. #55
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Warhammer40k is like a futuristic dark age where much of the technology and equipment cannot be reproduced, especially for Space Marines. So it is simply found and carried as relics.

    edit: Yes, it is Warhammer, doh.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-24-2012 at 03:50.
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  26. #56
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    That's Warhammer 40k.

    Warhammer is set in a renaissance like period. With crossbows, cannons, magic, elves, demons and a touch of steam punk.

    It is similar to 40k. It has both Elves (Eldar) and Dark Elves (Dark Eldar) which are very similar. And the Warhammer world could be some lost human civilisation within the 40k universe.

    However the 40k IP is with Relic.

    The Warhammer IP has been bequeathed in some format to CA.

    =][=

    As for the world itself it is very much a mutated map of Europe. UK is Albion, Eygpt has the skeleton undead armies, whilst Europe has vampire counts. America has Aztec like Saurians... Dinosaurs and dinosaur men. Europe has German and Italian style armies with a smattering of French influence. Plus Dwarves, Elves and Skaven (rat men) .
    Last edited by Papewaio; 12-24-2012 at 02:21.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Have you guys ever played "Call of Warhammer" It was developed by a Russian team. Super detail campaign and units, while staying pretty much true with Warhammer lore
    Here it is:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=320935

  28. #58
    Assassins Guild Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Yep thats one hell of a mod its pretty good loads of detail and quite a few factions to choose from i have been playing it for almost a year now and i really enjoy it there are loads of scripts so it can sometimes become ennoying but except the rare ctd its stable overall. I hear that the moders are working on a new version with four morefactions . I cant wait for the skaven. Anyone who likes warhammer should give it try. The modders are russian so i dont know if they will see this but guys thank you very much the community is gratefull :-)

  29. #59
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKow View Post
    Gettysburg was released in 97, iirc, Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned is from 95, and WH: Dark Omen is a 98 release (iirc). Both were real time tactics. On the strategy level one could reinforce old units and recruit new units, but that was tied to game progression and narrative, not strategical choices. I dont knw the Warhammer Universe, is there a form of economics/cultures behind the military? If so the TW formula would apply directly.
    Yes there are.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Warhammer_World_Map.jpg 
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    That map doesn't show political boundries. But they do exist. Most of the human nations are stand-ins for real world ones. Other areas that equate to a real world nation are replaced them with fantasy ones. For example the Warhammer world lacks Meso-american cultures. They've been replaced with dinosaur riding lizardmen.
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  30. #60
    Lurker Member Mongoose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Warhammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidoff View Post
    Yep thats one hell of a mod its pretty good loads of detail and quite a few factions to choose from i have been playing it for almost a year now and i really enjoy it there are loads of scripts so it can sometimes become ennoying but except the rare ctd its stable overall. I hear that the moders are working on a new version with four morefactions . I cant wait for the skaven. Anyone who likes warhammer should give it try. The modders are russian so i dont know if they will see this but guys thank you very much the community is gratefull :-)
    I've played a few campaigns of it as well, and it is a great mod. Playing as one of the Empire Factions gave me one of the most engaging total war campaigns I've ever played. On thewhole, the experience makes me confident that Warhammer and Total War are compatible and that CA can succeed with this game even without deviating much from their formula. I hope, however, they will use their greater resources to work in magic better than Call of Warhammer can. I also would want to see at least some custom settlements.

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