Morrowind - after Oblivion and Skyrim?

[Beskar]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

Consoles are dumbed down PC's...

I use a controller for my PC (Xbox360 one) and I play a lot of games with it. I do prefer controller in many games, Skyrim being one of them. But PC versions give mods, and these are very important as it allows you to get so much more out of the game. I have Skyrim on Xbox and recently on PC, and with the mods, it gave Skyrim new life that I am replaying it.

[rajpoot]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

And Oxygen is unhealthy if breathed in.

[Mongoose]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

I see a lot of console advantages, like better controls (although this can be helped by simply using an xbox controller with a PC). For Bethesda games, though, which are deepy modable but initially disfunctional, lacking access to mods can detract from the experience. Take Oblivion, for instance. The regular leveling system in Oblivion is basically broken. It does not function as it should. You can actually do much better in the game by selecting rarely used or needed skills as majors, because the the world levels with you such that getting too good at acrobatics too fast will just populate the world with daedric weapon-wielding bandits while you are still bad at using a sword. And even when your character can cope with it, it's very strange to gradually start running into bandits with "epic" equipment ever 10 minutes. Fortunately, there are mods that resolve this problem by adjusting the leveling mechanics so that picking the skills you intend to use as majors will actually help you. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul achieves this by setting limits on NPC scaling, and making "easy" and "difficult" dungeons so that the game remains challening (more challening, in fact).

Of course, this assumes that you're willing to fiddle with the game and invest time trawling through mods. I love using mods but I don't particularily like the process of downloading, installing, and figuring out which ones to use when I'd rather just play the game.

[lars573]

Consoles are dumbed down PC's...

You say it like that matters even a little.

I use a controller for my PC (Xbox360 one) and I play a lot of games with it. I do prefer controller in many games, Skyrim being one of them. But PC versions give mods, and these are very important as it allows you to get so much more out of the game. I have Skyrim on Xbox and recently on PC, and with the mods, it gave Skyrim new life that I am replaying it.

Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.

I see a lot of console advantages, like better controls (although this can be helped by simply using an xbox controller with a PC). For Bethesda games, though, which are deepy modable but initially disfunctional, lacking access to mods can detract from the experience. Take Oblivion, for instance. The regular leveling system in Oblivion is basically broken. It does not function as it should. You can actually do much better in the game by selecting rarely used or needed skills as majors, because the the world levels with you such that getting too good at acrobatics too fast will just populate the world with daedric weapon-wielding bandits while you are still bad at using a sword. And even when your character can cope with it, it's very strange to gradually start running into bandits with "epic" equipment ever 10 minutes. Fortunately, there are mods that resolve this problem by adjusting the leveling mechanics so that picking the skills you intend to use as majors will actually help you. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul achieves this by setting limits on NPC scaling, and making "easy" and "difficult" dungeons so that the game remains challening (more challening, in fact).

It's this kind of wrong headed thinking that's the problem with Oblivion. There is nothing in fact wrong with the level scaling in Oblivion. It works exactly as Bethesda intended it to work. It's not their fault that when you game the system it blows up in your face. Play the game as was intended and the level scaling works just fine. Although I can't fault Bethesda for avoiding all the tomfoolery associated with acrobatics and athletics by removing them as skills and making them carved in stone race stats in Skyrim.

[Fragony]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

que, exactly the other way around, proper rpg needs hotkeys. Wii-U might change that though but I doubt the hardcore pc-audience is interested in a Wii-U because of the lack of mods

[TinCow]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.

[TinCow]

Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Kralizec]

You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.

I’ve read somewhere that the hardware limits of consoles were the reason why Oblivion didn’t have Levitation spells like Morrowind, and why the cities are seperate cells from the broader world (the interior of cities is actually rendered when you’re outside the walls, but very poorly). Gah!

[lars573]

Actually Oblivions cities being separate areas was a bid for greater stability (along with auto saving after going through all doors). Player levitation had to go because there were no transition points on the top of the walls. And because it could only been seen from far away they didn't bother with bump mapping beyond blob in the distance.

You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.

That never mattered to me. I have never had a problem with the interface. My huge problems with Morrowind lay elsewhere.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Oh I do know. I look over ES mods from time to time. 80% are hey I added something that really doesn't belong to the game. The other 10% are adding in poorly designed quests with stupidly over powered weapons, the final 10% are new textures. Nothing that even remotely interests me.

[TinCow]

Oh I do know. I look over ES mods from time to time. 80% are hey I added something that really doesn't belong to the game. The other 10% are adding in poorly designed quests with stupidly over powered weapons, the final 10% are new textures. Nothing that even remotely interests me.

No, you clearly don't know. I have heavily modded every single Bethsoft game from Morrowind to Skyrim, including the Fallout franchise. Without exception it is the mods that turn the base games into proper masterpieces. They fix issues, add new content, remove annoyances, increase difficulty, encourage exploration, etc. It's true that most mods are tiny things and many are pathetic and not worth using, but there are always some towering works that dramatically improve the game. For example, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul for Oblivion or Project Nevada for FO:NV. For all Bethsoft games, I play the game once through with no mods (except UI to fix consolitis). After that I never play any of them again unmodded.

[lars573]

No, you clearly don't know. I have heavily modded every single Bethsoft game from Morrowind to Skyrim, including the Fallout franchise. Without exception it is the mods that turn the base games into proper masterpieces. They fix issues (that probably don't actually exist), add new content (that sucks), remove annoyances (not everyone agrees with that), increase difficulty (unnecessary), encourage exploration (what kind of lazy turd needs that?), etc. It's true that most mods are tiny things and many are pathetic and not worth using, but there are always some towering works that dramatically improve the game. For example, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul for Oblivion or Project Nevada for FO:NV. For all Bethsoft games, I play the game once through with no mods (except UI to fix consolitis). After that I never play any of them again unmodded.

And that's why all the mods suck. The bigger ones are in fact the worst offenders of being useless drivel.

[TinCow]

Clearly our views are so radically different on this issue that further debate is pointless. I shall therefore sign off on this one.

[Mongoose]

Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.


It's this kind of wrong headed thinking that's the problem with Oblivion. There is nothing in fact wrong with the level scaling in Oblivion. It works exactly as Bethesda intended it to work. It's not their fault that when you game the system it blows up in your face. Play the game as was intended and the level scaling works just fine. Although I can't fault Bethesda for avoiding all the tomfoolery associated with acrobatics and athletics by removing them as skills and making them carved in stone race stats in Skyrim.

Really? Hearthfire and Dawn Guard better than any possible mod? You must really dislike mods.

What about bug fixing mods (the unofficial patch mods) that don't do anything other than fix stuff like scripting errors in quests (and please don't tell me that these do not exist in abundance)? Surely you would agree that having access to things like this a benefit? What about massive graphics improvements (without performance hits) with mods like Skyrim HD? On that note, what about performance increasing mods?

The problem with the Oblivion leveling system is that it doesn't blow up in your face if you game the system, it actually works much better for you. Is it wrong-headed thinking to expect the game to reward you for actually following the premise of its mechanics? If you have to impose iron-man rules on yourself to follow the basic idea of their skill system, is that not a sign the game is broken? If you level up a lot before doing certain mainquest sections, they actually get harder than for a level one character. On that note, a low-level character can do basically everything in the game, which is weird and counter-intuitive.

I'd say the scaling system in Oblivion would be like if in a Total War game, flanking an enemy unit actually increased the effectiveness of the flanked unit, meaning that not flanking at all would make the game easier for the player. Yeah, a disciplined player might continue to flank anyway to keep the experience challenging and more immersive, and that might work just fine for people, but the game would be nevertheless broken.

Skyrim, I admit, is perfectly fine without mods, but I wouldn't say the same about Oblivion.

And how can you defend 1:1 scaling, to the extent where every bandit will eventually have access to super weapons? Doesn't it hurt your immersion if every random thug in Cyrodial has daedric armor?

[Husar]

Clearly our views are so radically different on this issue that further debate is pointless. I shall therefore sign off on this one.

Radical being the keyword here.

I prefer my RPGs on PC, mods or not. I simply don't find using a controller preferable for things like aiming with arrows. And don't come with auto aim, there's a time and place for auto aim but manual aim has it's own merits, especially if hit zones are involved.

As for Morrowind, Skyrim and so on, I think too many RPGs lack spears or implement them in a relatively lackluster way. One of the best ways to use spears is for guards, a guard standing there with a spear in his hand looks much better than with an axe or sword on the belt.
I also can't think of many RPGs where spears could be used over the head, like in the good old days (Titan Quest has it IIRC). As such they really took something away with Oblivion (spears, in case it's not obvious ). I skipped Oblivion though because of the enemy levelling, which I clearly don't like. Skyrim is pretty good, like it a lot, still somewhat weird that one guy dressed in a pelt can withstand two hits while the other survives ten but overall it seems somewhat better than Oblivion in this regard.

What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.

I got carried away there but that's because in both Skyrim and Morrowind I kept playing until the challenge was mostly gone and the games become rather blunt at that point, which is something they have in common.

[Mongoose]

What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.

I agree. Becoming the archmage is fun, but being the archmage disappoints on many levels.

Perhaps part of the problem is that the games try so hard to always provide as many choices as possible, thus making it absolutely essiential that every one of those choices be meaningless, because any consequences might hamper the player's ability to do whatever they wanted later. So you can always join every faction and finish all the plotlines and none of it will ever influence anything besides literally two or three lines of dialogue.

[Beskar]

124 Steam workshop mods and another 7-8 Nexus ones for Skyrim. All I have to say, it really changes the experience a lot for the better.

[Mongoose]

Besides replacing the subpar vanilla textures, I actually haven't modded Skyrim too much yet. What are you all using?
I currently have locational damage (critical effects for hitting different areas), warzones (makes the civil actually ... a civil war, with fighting in the countryside), tougher dragons (vanilla ones are easier than bears), and some face stuff, and better quest objective text (so you can know where to go without blindly following arrows). Any good gameplay overhauls? By the way I would recommend everything I am using, but it's pretty close to vanilla skyrim, which I suppose might actually be a good thing depending on what you want.

War zones: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9494
Better Quest Objectives: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11135
Skyrim HD: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/607
Locational Damage: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/12615
Tougher Dragons:http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/13463
this one is actually a bit more severe the one I'm using, but I can't find mine.

[lars573]

Really? Hearthfire and Dawn Guard better than any possible mod? You must really dislike mods.

Dawn guard without question. Hearthfire, yeah sure.

What about bug fixing mods (the unofficial patch mods) that don't do anything other than fix stuff like scripting errors in quests (and please don't tell me that these do not exist in abundance)? Surely you would agree that having access to things like this a benefit? What about massive graphics improvements (without performance hits) with mods like Skyrim HD? On that note, what about performance increasing mods?

These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.

The problem with the Oblivion leveling system is that it doesn't blow up in your face if you game the system, it actually works much better for you. Is it wrong-headed thinking to expect the game to reward you for actually following the premise of its mechanics? If you have to impose iron-man rules on yourself to follow the basic idea of their skill system, is that not a sign the game is broken? If you level up a lot before doing certain mainquest sections, they actually get harder than for a level one character. On that note, a low-level character can do basically everything in the game, which is weird and counter-intuitive.

Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want. I hardly call don't be an idiot, have a little patience and build your skills evenly iron man rules. Where are these sections you speak of? I never had much more trouble at low or high levels in Oblivion. Because I wasn't an impatient idiot and built my skills evenly. By your logic Skyrim is just as broken as Oblivion. As both games spawn enemies in dungeons keyed to your level when you enter.

I'd say the scaling system in Oblivion would be like if in a Total War game, flanking an enemy unit actually increased the effectiveness of the flanked unit, meaning that not flanking at all would make the game easier for the player. Yeah, a disciplined player might continue to flank anyway to keep the experience challenging and more immersive, and that might work just fine for people, but the game would be nevertheless broken.

The analogy doesn't work. Level scaling in Oblivion does not have the results you describe.

Skyrim, I admit, is perfectly fine without mods, but I wouldn't say the same about Oblivion.

And how can you defend 1:1 scaling, to the extent where every bandit will eventually have access to super weapons? Doesn't it hurt your immersion if every random thug in Cyrodial has daedric armor?

Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.

I prefer my RPGs on PC, mods or not. I simply don't find using a controller preferable for things like aiming with arrows. And don't come with auto aim, there's a time and place for auto aim but manual aim has it's own merits, especially if hit zones are involved.

I can't aim with a mouse. Thumb sticks or nothing.

What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.

Haven't played much Skyrim then?

[rajpoot]

I can't aim with a mouse.

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

[TinCow]

Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want.

And yet Bethsoft conceded that the Oblivion scaling system was a mistake and they have not used it since.

[Beskar]

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

Actually, it isn't that bad as it sounds. By aiming, it means, able to point over a target and accurately get a shot off, such as archer. Not all mice are great for this, especially wireless ones where tiny movements are not translated to the computer. I had a wireless mouse which required you to move it through a threashold before it registers and it made pinpoint aiming nearly impossible on moving targets, since the movement required was too mouse for the mice to accurately measure. In games where the stick is optimised for the game (typically ports), all it requires is a thumb twiddle and you have the target in your sights and able to accurately aim. However, in unoptimised games, this can be very choring as they don't make use of the sensitivity of the stick, so where in an optimised games putting it in a greater at different angles makes it moves slower or faster, in unoptimised, it is a set speed.

I find using controllers much more comfortable and relaxing. I don't have to bend over a keyboard, I can sit back, chill and relax on a comfy chair and play and I find xbox360 controllers typically being the best style. So I am using controller on Skyrim/Dungeon Defenders/Assassins Creed (etc) and K/M for Crusader Kings 2/MMO (too many buttons)/etc

[Kralizec]

These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.

The bugs fixed by the "unofficial patches" are innumerable. Allthough admittedly, most of them are relatively minor.

As for the mods in general, I agree with TinCow that you really dont know what you're talking about. Since you only played Morrowind on PC, and not for very long apparently, I also think its safe to say that youre not speaking from actual experience.
To be clear: the vast majority of mods are pretty simple and mundane, tweaking some textures or some new unimaginative fantasy weapon or whatever. Some of those however, happen to be extremely good. Furthermore there are a lot of mods that fundamentally alter (and improve) gameplay. Deadly Reflex is probably the best example of that; look up some videos on youtube to see. There are also quest mods but I havent tried those for Oblivion.

Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.

Then this really begs the question why you wont encounter a single marauder with daedric armor during the early levels. Is there a surge in glass and daedric imports that happens to coincide with your levelling? The higher level armors are supposed to be rare (they were in morrowind) and are heinously expensive (still true, though not so much as in morrowind). That every bandit in Cyrodil has Elven armor or better once you reach the higher levels is extremely daft.

To be honest; I did exploit this "feature" mercilessly. Every once in a while I would revisit old dungeons to mine them, killing the inhabitants and selling all their arms and armor for cash. But then again, it does hurt immersion, and besides I routinely exploit other features of the game. The intelligence-boosted alchemy tactic from Morrowind comes to mind.

[lars573]

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

I have to use a mouse to slowly that in a gaming setting it's an extreme hinderance, not a help. I never finished Diablo 2 because I'd end up running in circles around the bosses and they'd kill me. And to bring it back toe ES series I never used ranged combat before they made it work right in Skyrim. In Oblivion and especially Morrowind it's functionality is extremely low.

And yet Bethsoft conceded that the Oblivion scaling system was a mistake and they have not used it since.

I was pondering on ES level keying last night. I realized that the functionally level keying in ES III, IV, and V are the same. Biggest difference is that in Oblivion the cap on gear for mortal enemies (bandits and the like) was removed entirely.

The bugs fixed by the "unofficial patches" are innumerable. Allthough admittedly, most of them are relatively minor.

As for the mods in general, I agree with TinCow that you really dont know what you're talking about. Since you only played Morrowind on PC, and not for very long apparently, I also think its safe to say that youre not speaking from actual experience.
To be clear: the vast majority of mods are pretty simple and mundane, tweaking some textures or some new unimaginative fantasy weapon or whatever. Some of those however, happen to be extremely good. Furthermore there are a lot of mods that fundamentally alter (and improve) gameplay. Deadly Reflex is probably the best example of that; look up some videos on youtube to see. There are also quest mods but I havent tried those for Oblivion.

I've never played an ES game on PC, and I won't either. I have both Xbox versions of Morrowind, and I'd never give up the refill health/magika,stamina cheats. I managed to get by without them in Oblivion and Skyrim. But in Morrowind you really need them, given the games massive flaws in travel and combat. And I have looked at some of them. My one though. Waste. Of. Time. Mine looking at it, yours using it, them making it.

Then this really begs the question why you wont encounter a single marauder with daedric armor during the early levels. Is there a surge in glass and daedric imports that happens to coincide with your levelling? The higher level armors are supposed to be rare (they were in morrowind) and are heinously expensive (still true, though not so much as in morrowind). That every bandit in Cyrodil has Elven armor or better once you reach the higher levels is extremely daft.

To be honest; I did exploit this "feature" mercilessly. Every once in a while I would revisit old dungeons to mine them, killing the inhabitants and selling all their arms and armor for cash. But then again, it does hurt immersion, and besides I routinely exploit other features of the game. The intelligence-boosted alchemy tactic from Morrowind comes to mind.

The way gear has always worked in ES games "breaks emersion." In all of them you go from basic iron and leather, to steel, to ancient meric, to super fancy. Why is it daft that the rules that apply to everyone else? It's not. Daft is when rules only apply to the player and not the world at large.

[TinCow]

I was pondering on ES level keying last night. I realized that the functionally level keying in ES III, IV, and V are the same. Biggest difference is that in Oblivion the cap on gear for mortal enemies (bandits and the like) was removed entirely.

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:

Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.

Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.

The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.

[lars573]

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:

Actually you're way off base.

Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.

That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.

Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.

This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.

The FO system is not how it works in Skyrim. I've never encountered an area in Skyrim that's effectively off limits like Old Olney in FO3 (I only just got New Vegas last night).

The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.

That things you're complaining about in Oblivion have happened to me in Morrowind.

[TinCow]

Actually you're way off base.

That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.

There are some areas where that is true, but there are significant parts of it that are static. In addition, the only spawn variables are which creatures that spawn, not the toughness of the creatures. A Golden Saint is a Golden Saint is a Golden Saint. It never gets harder or easier.

All you need to disprove your leveling theory is to walk to the northern blightlands as a starting character. You will never survive up there because the creatures are much higher level than you. There are also numerous static creatures throughout the game world that are always there and are always the same level every single time regardless of the status of the player.

This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.

I'm starting to wonder if there's another game out there called Morrowind and we're talking about separate things. Cliffracers are never a threat at higher levels, they're just annoying. That's what they're famous for. Annoyance, not difficulty.

[Conradus]

From UESPwiki

Enemy Scaling
Creatures do not scale to your level; their stats are fixed.(Morrowind)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Different and more powerful variations of enemies appear at higher levels.(Oblivion)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Most enemies have a level range, restricting their leveling to minimum and maximum levels.(Skyrim)

[Husar]

Haven't played much Skyrim then?

You tell me. I'm head of the assassins' guild, head of the thieves' guild, completed the imperial quests and was working on the fighter guild's quest (forgot the name in the game) when I realized that working my way up hardly yielded any real, believable benefits for me. Either the game spams you with random miniquests or people lost all interest to talk to you or they behave just like they did when you were a member.
You'd even think getting to the top of organizations that oppose one another is a bit weird but it worked just flawlessly because your rank in any organization has no real tangible effect on anything. I admit it may be hard to program otherwise but it does make me a bit sad and reduces my willingness to replay since I can do all the quests with one char who is so strong that nothing can stop her/him.
RPGs that make you choose a faction, align with it and then live with your decision may be less sandboxy in that regard but they create a more believable world where choices matter and you can replay them aligned to another faction to get a different experience. What they all lack though is the aspect of actually using the influence you get in real life once you're at the top, only Mount&Blade Warband (and possibly other M&B games) seems to have such mechanics as far as I can tell.

[Kralizec]

In Morrowind all NPC's had predetermined stats, including "bandits" in caves and whatnot. Aside from the guards and those "dreamers", there were no generic NPC types as I recall. Again, there were mods which corrected this

The only level-based adjustment in Morrowind is with generic, respawning creatures - some places have undead or daedrae in them, but the specific type depends on your level. Once you've become powerful enough that you can defeat Golden Saints easily, there's no real challenge except quest-specific enemies.

[Mongoose]

These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.

Here I will concede that you may just be luckier than I am. You've never had follower issues and stuff like that?

Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want. I hardly call don't be an idiot, have a little patience and build your skills evenly iron man rules. Where are these sections you speak of? I never had much more trouble at low or high levels in Oblivion. Because I wasn't an impatient idiot and built my skills evenly. By your logic Skyrim is just as broken as Oblivion. As both games spawn enemies in dungeons keyed to your level when you enter.

I disagree that the system should prohibit "unbalanced" leveling, especially in a game where, as you point out, the goal is absolute freedom!

That's not true in Skyrim. Bandits and many other creatures have some sort of cap, so there are limits to how powerful they get. I'm not totally against leveling, I'm just against Oblivion's simple 1:1 scale. A less extreme version would be fine.

By "iron man rules," I mean this: an artifical limit the player imposes on themselves in order to make the experience more satisfying. Using the Oblivion skill system as intended (i.e., leveling at all or even picking the skills you want) makes the game more difficult for the player. Thus choosing to use it fits the definition for an "iron man" rule.

This issue aside, though, I never built my skills "unevenly," so I never experienced much outright difficulty with the system. For me the issue was this: I would get XP in, let's say, blade, and get better at blade. But as the enemies around me scaled, they gained more health. So whether I had 20 blade or 50 blade, it made no difference at all: the same bandit takes the same number of hits to knock down regardless of level. This really defeats the point of skill building or XP. If it's going to scale like that, why even bother with leveling? They could have gotten the same thing by having people just pick a class with set stats and then not bother with leveling at all. Effectively that would achieve the same results. If a mechanic in the game is pointless and adds nothing, than that mechanic is broken (unless it is intended to be pointless in which case it's just completely banal).

The analogy doesn't work. Level scaling in Oblivion does not have the results you describe.

It does work. Getting better at blade does not make your character better at blade. That is about equal to flanking not actually providing a combat bonus, because both cases indicate non-function game mechanic.

Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.

Yeah, but it's just pushing things that all of them would, and only after a certain point. The player character gets special stuff because they run around and do stuff like become archmage or head of some other guild or whatever. If these bandits are so powerful why are they just robbing random people in the woods? It would be like a street gang having fighter jets and tanks but then only using them to mug people. Masses of bandits having super-armor makes no sense. Where are they getting it from? Why do they have better stuff than the Imperial Army?

Haven't played much Skyrim then?

I don't get to do **** as archmage. Maybe the other plot lines are different.