Subsequent TW games.

[Jxrc]

Hi eveyone,
I have'nt posted anything here for quite a while as I had ceased to play any TW game since RTW came out (yes shame on me but my new computer could no longer handle the map of MTW... :(( )
Recently got my hands on discount copies of MTWII, Empire and NTW and thought I gave you my two cents for anyone interested (posted here since the original MTW remains the best one IMHO).
MTWII: same flaws as RTW basically with the addition that the strategic map is overcrowded ... If you keep the option "watch computer moves" on you're in for a treat ... Battles seems even more weird than in RTW especially since it's almost impossible to see who is shooting arrows at whom ... Not a very good game thus (but you can get it for about €5 now) Got the kingdom extension but I have not tested it yet ... Since it's the RTW engine decreasing the rebel/brigand spawning rate is really a must ...
Empire: really enjoyable. Strategic map is clear and, provided your computer is powerful enough, following AI moves does not slow down the game at all. Naval battles are quite nice and diplomacy does makes some sense up to a point (until you get too strong and all AI factions gang against you as in all TW games). Only disappointment was the battle AI which is rather stupid as it is usually happy shooting at your infantry while being slaughtered by cannister shots. Very enjoyable game nonetheless.
Napoleon: biggest disappointment so far as I can't get past my dislike of the strategic map. IMHO it's just horrible with a grim atmosphere ... I have tried five or six times to start a campaign but I gave up each time after a few turns ...The weird thing is that I was really looking forward to playing NTW as I love that period of history.

Conclusion: nothing tops the original MTW so far. But Empire is really good. Would love to hear your views on the above (or any suggestions to deal with the issues I have with NTW and MTWII if I have missed a trick).

That's it for me happy MTWarring to all (and happy new year BTW)

[drone]

Welcome back, Jxrc.

The switch to the new strat map turned me off as well. I tried to enjoy RTW when it came out, but it just felt like a job micromanaging the pieces around and there were just too many game breakers for it to be enjoyable. The patches and mods have helped, but I just can't into it. Med2 had the same overall flaws with the campaign map, and Kingdoms was a non-starter for me with the Securom nonsense. The Napoleanic era just doesn't interest me (too many guns, I think).

I've played some Shogun 2. While it still has the new strategic map, I think the AI handles it better because the terrain limits it's options and it can make smarter moves. But I still prefer MTW. Get off my lawn?

[Jxrc]

Thanks Drone .
The weird thing with MTWII is that borders seem to exist for information purpose only and you end up with foreign armies playfully roaming your land without authorisation or a war breaking out (don't think it was the same in RTW but that's a long time ago and my memory is not what it used to be) I even have an "allied" army sitting on the bridge outside Venice preventing me from getting an unit or agent out .... At least they took care if that in ETW ...
PS: BTW the translation of "If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now" would be "Si je ne jouais à des jeux, je tuerais de petits animaux à un rythme plus élevé que je ne le fais actuellement".

[I of the Storm]

I agree. ETW was so far the best I've gotten since old MTW (although some mods for RTW were quite appealing and improving the original). Especially the re-indtroduction of faction re-emergences was a good idea.

[dickey1331]

Ive played RTW and hated it. Havent played anything else. I just really enjoy MTW.

[Nagnar]

I haven't played RTW but I've watched a few MP battles on YouTube and the time commanders TV show and the thing that struck me was the battles felt like an arcade game or a Hollywood movie - Things like cavalry impaling on spears, sending infantry without spears/on the flanks of spears flying and battles resolving near instantly with the losing side being massacred with barely half a dozen routers.
Did not like, and combined with the fact that MTW2 uses the same engine as RTW and all the complaints about the strategy map being even WORSE than MTW1, I'm not impressed with the sequels/not going to get any of them.

[Zarakas]

I have played both RTW and MTW2. I did not like, hated both. I really enjoy MTW, including the mods.

[Nagnar]

Has anyone played the XIII Century, 1242 or Northern Crusade games by Unicorn Games and could comment on their quality?

Or in general any other tactical medieval warfare games like total war that you could recommend?

[Raz]

I quite enjoyed NTW after a few realism mods were slapped on. Never gave me a very good chance to turtle along on the strat map, but I still enjoyed it.

I don't really remember what made it so, but I felt TWS2 was terrific.

Skipped ETW.

Has anyone played the XIII Century, 1242 or Northern Crusade games by Unicorn Games and could comment on their quality?

Or in general any other tactical medieval warfare games like total war that you could recommend?

I haven't tried any of them as I keep fearing that they're poorly executed TW clones - which is unfair as they're probably not, but I doubt they could be truly exceptional.

[Stazi]

I haven't tried any of them as I keep fearing that they're poorly executed TW clones - which is unfair as they're probably not, but I doubt they could be truly exceptional.

I've tried Northern Crusades when they came out. It's quite decent game. Combination of Mount & Blade strategy map system with TW battles. It was a little bit bugged at the start but now it'd be fixed. Battles are imho very good and in some aspects even better than in TW (a lot of different factors and variables). Check the vids on YT.

[Lord Godfrey]

MTW and VI were my first and favorite TW games. I enjoyed being able to groom your heirs and reward your top generals with titles and marriages.

I bought but rarely played RTW. Bought and played MTWII but did not enjoy it as much. Bought Empire but stopped there. Looking forward to the new release of Rome and hoping to get back into the series.

[Dellathane]

I found Empire a bit dull. Expanding my empire felt more like tetris than conquest because it was such an administrative burden dealing with all the towns and industrial buildings.
It's odd though I'm sure I would love such things, especially in Medieval, but i never could really get in to a game of Empire. (Although I had one very enjoyable game playing a modded version in which I was Dagestan (next to the Caspian sea). No admin problems there. It took me twenty turns to dare to conquer my first province. The diplomacy and trade system of empire really did shine then. I lost the save unfortunately).

MII:TW was a laugh, but i really missed the depth of character development you get in M:TW. I think the graphics helped a bit with this game though.

Re. Other games to try I've heard a lot about Crusader Kings. Haven't tried it myself but apparently it's all about managing relationships of your allies, subjugates and enemies, with war being one of the consequences when you mess up. Sounds very interesting to me.

Still M:TW all the way

[Jxrc]

I am basically done with MTW II now. Played quite a lot (probably more than 300 hours) but I could never finish a campaign (manage to get two the plague part a few times but never further) ... Can't say it was not fun but the agent menu is a nightmare (each time you do something with an agent selected in the list you get sent back to the top of the list which is a drag one you have more than a few agents). Disappointed to see that pikemen are basically phalanxes with the same glitch as in RTW .... Like in RTW, there are too many V&V with insignificant impact to keep track of ... Not a bad experience for the price paid (about 10 euros together with kingdom) but the games feel more like a modded RTW than anything else (guilds and merchants are just gimmicks without great interest IMHO). ETW is at least a new game with some impressive new features (diplomacy a bit more rational than most TW games before, naval battles) despite the poor battle AI.

[edyzmedieval]

Played all of the TW's - MTW is still and probably forever be my absolute favourite. The atmosphere created while playing the game is unbeatable.

I did enjoy NTW and especially S2TW, with a notable inclusion being M2TW.

[Jxrc]

Speaking of subsequent TW games, is RTW2 worth purchasing ? I ask here as I'd rather have the opinion of people who played against a decent AI ;-). Happy new year by the way.

[Axalon]

In short, No... RTW2 is a defect game...

Play some mods instead - time better spent, really... For MTW there are Redux, Medmod, BKB mod(s) and XL for instance. If you have not tried some of these, then you really should. All of them offer different styles and experiences of various kinds, and combined they cater to all player-levels somehow. Redux and XL are just as stable and polished as the raw game itself. Obviously there is much more done for MTW as well, beyond the medieval theme, maybe you could try some of that? It will be time better spent then on RTW2 and if you somehow prefer RTW or MTW2 instead, then the same thing applies there, among the tons of stuff made for that.

Personally, I never really liked the "new" TW-paradigm initiated by RTW, and the best I played out of those games was STW2. Maybe you could give that a shot too (if you have not already), it got the best AI ever since MTW (not that this benchmark was very high to begin with, but there it is)...

- A

[caravel]

Speaking of subsequent TW games, is RTW2 worth purchasing ? I ask here as I'd rather have the opinion of people who played against a decent AI ;-). Happy new year by the way.

I have no idea about the TW games since M2TW, but generally if you can get over the redesigned campaign game, which seems to be the case, then any of the newer games might be worth a try.

I thought the consensus at the time was that Napoleon was an improvement over Empire - which was buggy as hell on release? Also I believe S2TW is supposed to be by far the best since MTW1

For me the deal breaker was the new campaign game introduced in RTW - I am one of those odd sorts who preferred the risk map and loathed the tedious micro-management of the new games. To me the risk map + STW/MTW battles was a game for a grown adult, RTW's campaign game was just an annoying distraction from the battles - which weren't very good either...

Regarding M2TW, it was far worse than RTW, in fact it made the latter seem much more appealing to the extent that I did go back and play it for several weeks.

To sort out the less good games - there may be mods you can try?

[Geezer57]

<SNIP> Play some mods instead - time better spent, really... For MTW there are Redux, Medmod, BKB mod(s) and XL for instance. <SNIP>

Hi Axalon!

Don't for about the Tiberius mod, which offers quite good gameplay with some interesting twists.

Cheers!

[Axalon]

Geezer, you disappoint me...

"I would like to request that file, ID #XXXXX [blanked numerals], will be permanently removed due to its questionable contents (at least in part). Over a year ago I prohibited the creator of this file/upload (Tyberius/XXXXXXXX[blanked name]) from any use, of any materials, on any level, originally made by me, of any kind - I did that in Dec 2008. Still, he has (once again) used and abused, in part or as base, what I can still identify and prove to be originally my visual work and designs. - This file/upload and its contents stand as proof for it, since I can clearly identify parts that I made within “his” work, included in this file. I would not be able to do so, or gather evident samples of it, if it were not present there somehow, now would I? At the same time, my own material precedes his and the file-timestamps proves it."

That excerpt is taken from a mail I sent to AtomicGamer staff in 27.01.2010. 24hrs later the file/upload(s) was deleted and I had received a reply confirming it. Now, to put it all into proper perspective, Tyberius wrote many things in Dec 2008, but what truly mattered was this (I quote from Tyberius Full Edition plus XL-thread, Post: 11)…

... I made use of his images and forgot to give him credits for it. However it was a mistake, I had no intentions of receiving credits for something I haven't done.

The patches are going to be re-uploaded with images done by myself. I think I have demonstrated to be more than capable of doing all images as good as anybody could.

That was Dec 2008. In Jan 2009 he did release these new supposedly “cleaned up” re-releases of V2.3 and V 3.0. A few days later, I did examine these re-releases and I could easily find, recognize and identify material that distinctly I had made within what supposedly was “his” work – again he did not credit anybody for it at all. Ultimately forwarding it as his own as a result. It was essentially the routine of 2008 all over again but worse as this time as the previous events made it plain impossible to be another supposed “mistake” - now in 2009. After all, I had already in Dec 2008 explicitly prohibited him to “use” ANY material made and designed by me what so ever, in any way (I still have that mail & the reply to it btw). Still he just did that anyway despite his own previous promises (of 2008, both public and private).

So… There is zero doubt that Tyberius used foul and dishonest practices in 2.3 and beyond, its a fact, this in 2008, and then again in 2009 (and due to my inexperience on net-practices the files was not removed until 2010, which was very unfortunate. Had it all happened today, the damn thing would have been erased and gone within 10 days). The removal of 2.3 and 3.0 was done for a reason, which Tyberius himself had created – not me. I will never support or sanction anything Tyberius created after all that. I my mind, it deserves no such thing. Even today it is offensive and provocative to me whenever people openly support his stuff - even the things that I never had a part in. To me, using that stuff is still a silent approval of the man and all his actions – obviously, I will resent that.

Overall, I think it’s unrealistic to believe that Tyberius supposedly only used lousy practices on 2.3 (and 3.0) and only with/on my work, and that all of it is confined to just that and nothing else, supposedly. I find that hard to believe and experience have it otherwise. Instead, I find it much more likely that is was rather the only time he actually was truly caught for it. Anyway, I guess we will never know that stuff for sure. Had it all been up to me, I would have banned the entire mod for good measure from the boards in 2009, making sure that such foul practices Tyberius repeatedly had problems staying away from, was severely discouraged and punished. In the process, also protecting and supporting honest modders and their work on the boards. Obviously, Org-management decided to do zilch instead – don’t ask me why. As if supposedly none of it ever happened… Which of course is utter and total BS… It did happen, and it happened on these very boards, and I think the management had failed to protect me (and others) from it.

- A

[Stazi]

So… There is zero doubt that Tyberius used foul and dishonest practices in 2.3 and beyond

But there is no doubt that his own, previous creation (v2.2) is still a nice and interesting mod, right?

[Nikodil]

This reminds me of something I've been wondering about. What's the common license model for these mods? I've only looked at a few but I didn't see any LICENSE.txt or similar. For open source software you're usually very careful about picking the right license and clearly stating it throughout the package.

[caravel]

[I of the Storm]

My thoughts exactly...

[Axalon]

But there is no doubt that his own, previous creation (v2.2) is still a nice and interesting mod, right?

Staz, that ship sailed long time ago - at least for me - and it will never come back. From where I am standing, all such potential perceptions are essentially in the toilet now. Had you showed me that mod prior to all these events - I would have been inclined to generally agree. These days, I can not, as it is tainted, by his name and actions. There is no way around or erasing that - it will always be part of that stuff too. An example as to illustrate my point…. It is like putting up a painting on the wall - at the public office (say, work) - that Hitler painted before he joined the Nazi-party and then you expect all your visitors/guests (including Jews etc.) to be perfectly fine with that – as you explain this detail for them and at the same time claiming it’s a nice and beautiful piece... Get my drift? The thing is tainted - not from when it was made, but what happened later on due to the man that once created it… Same thing applies here, the stakes are smaller, the story different, obviously, but the same thing applies none the less. Its tainted… There is no way around or erasing it… It will never be the same thing again…

Besides, is not using that stuff - the 2.2 - while fully aware of all details outlined above, to somehow condone his or such actions and practices? …To downplay them? …The importance of what happened in a universal sense, or the general principles that was betrayed? Don’t you think doing all that is rude and offensive to people who been at the receiving end? I certainly think so. If not, by all means please fully explain how it does not condone it? Whenever ready, I’ll be listening…

Anyhow, I wonder Staz, had you been at the receiving end of those (or such) actions and practices, do you honestly think you would have the same views as your remark suggests here? Seeing things in the same light? Assuming that you cared at all for your own work, or how it was treated by others, and how you as person was treated too, or the general principles on all that... I very much doubt it. Morals and principle can not just apply whenever it suits us, they apply all the time and we try to act accordingly. Otherwise it will be reduced to mere opportune excuses for the hypocrite. Do you really want to go there, I certainly won’t, not if I can help it...

- A

[Axalon]

What's the common license model for these mods? I've only looked at a few but I didn't see any LICENSE.txt or similar. For open source software you're usually very careful about picking the right license and clearly stating it throughout the package.

It’s a valid and good question… Predetermined and formalized rules and guidelines never was an Org-strong point, as far as I can tell. Not much seem to be available or formulated here at the Org. The TWC has been much better at this, then again that site is far more focused on mods and modding then this place (especially these days) - and it have a solid tradition of writing down, formalize and publish its rules and policies, publicly. The Org has not. Anyways, here are the only stuff I know about and have seen (at the Org) and I use that for my stuff (I also use the TWC mod-policy as reference as well)….

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-mod-what-next

Here are the primary TWC-modding guidelines, which are more thorough (although, it is still very much up to the administrations discretion at the end of the day. For better or worse)….

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ing-Guidelines


If you find anything else on that note, please let me know…

- A

[Axalon]

I expected to find you here, eventually… caravel… The old “Tyberius-defender”… Despite all things, even now you
can not resist to somehow fight me over this stuff, in whatever way you can - as always. So, it has come to this,
playing the tedious-card now is it?

...Only a man devoid of morals and principles would find the effort to somehow uphold such – tedious and pointless.
As the little gif suggests…

***

My thoughts exactly...

Well, if you feel that way… Please, feel free to leave at any time, really… Don’t stay on my behalf…

- A

[caravel]

I expected to find you here, eventually… caravel…

Absolutely, I was here before you and will probably keep turning up long after you're gone and forgotten or at least until the place shuts down... I'm like that annoying recurring fungal infection old chap...

The old “Tyberius-defender”…

Just to put things in perspective: That's the fellow who hasn't logged in since 2010... he's long gone, probably moved on and forgotten it, why haven't you? Next thing you'll be taking out a contract on the poor bugger...

And as ever it's pretty much black and white, "with me or against me"? If you can't see how that comes across then it's pretty much a lost cause... in fact I don't really need to post anything much in this thread, you're doing fine.

Despite all things, even now you can not resist to somehow fight me over this stuff, in whatever way you can - as always. So, it has come to this,
playing the tedious-card now is it?

Let's just pretend that you've never provoked me, or just generally behaved obnoxiously on this board... no, it's everyone else's fault.

Well, if you feel that way… Please, feel free to leave at any time, really… Don’t stay on my behalf…

The fact that you can't see what's wrong with that statement says it all. an .org member conforms to what you want, or leaves?

What you seem to fail to realise is, that you don't own the place and don't get to decide who stays or goes. This site is not about you, your mod or your childish feud and no one actually cares about your hissy fit over supposed plagiarism.

If you'd tackled the whole issue differently - spoken to your peers on this site like human beings, dealt with staff reasonably and worked out differences like a rational being, you might have got results. Instead you have behaved like the proverbial bull in the china shop and trampled on everyone who does not see your point of view. You've also treated with those who try out your mod and post in your subforum, little better than serfs.

[drone]

Thanks all for your contributions, but this one has apparently run it's course.