Syria

[HopAlongBunny]

Was it ever a "democratic" revolution?

My understanding is that the Sunni majority wishes to usurp the Alawite minority in power. Essentially swap one ruling elite for another.

The diverse minority populations that make up almost half of the country appear to have little to gain from the swap; it is also unclear how the new regime would walk the tight-rope between an "Islamic" state and a newly fledged democracy.

[Empire*Of*Media]

if Israel & USA would Invade Iran and Kick The Islamic Regime out !! now Assad would have gone 1 Year ago like anywhere else !!
the Source of These Bloodsheding its The Islamic Regime of IRAN !! Iranians Too Wanted Aid by West in 2009 Revolt !! but what the west did was seeing its profits & Benefits !! USA & European Union want their benefits in anything !! and they claim "DEMOCRACY" !! this word its a huge DECEPTION !!

[Fragony]

if Israel & USA would Invade Iran and Kick The Islamic Regime out !! now Assad would have gone 1 Year ago like anywhere else !!
the Source of These Bloodsheding its The Islamic Regime of IRAN !! Iranians Too Wanted Aid by West in 2009 Revolt !! but what the west did was seeing its profits & Benefits !! USA & European Union want their benefits in anything !! and they claim "DEMOCRACY" !! this word its a huge DECEPTION !!

Missed opertunity to not aid the Iranian people for sure. Things would have looked a lot better if we would have. Not sure who exactly Iran is supporting Assad or the rebels, but they sure have a big hand under the skirt

[Husar]

Since when does democracy say anything about which foreign policy a nation has to follow?

Europe doesn't even have enough weapons to help anyone, remember when we ran out of bombs in Libya?

The only ones with enough explosives to do something are the USA and Israel, but Russia seems determined to stay with Assad.
If you have a problem with the UN doing nothing, ask yourself why Russia vetoed every idea of doing anything and why any nations have to have veto rights in the first place. The UN should be more like the senate of the old republic but since people don't even like the EU, I suppose they would hate that even more. So instead we give some nations veto powers, make sure the UN never gets anything done and then complain that it never really does anything...

[Greyblades]

Oh god no, why would we want the old Republic's senate? They let a gungan give palpatine war powers for goodess sake!

[Lemur]

Video of one of the strikes in Syria.

[Sir Moody]

Missed opertunity to not aid the Iranian people for sure. Things would have looked a lot better if we would have. Not sure who exactly Iran is supporting Assad or the rebels, but they sure have a big hand under the skirt

Iran supports Assad

the Saudis support the Rebels

why? Iran is Shia as is Assad, Saudi is Sunni as are most the rebels... a good old religious proxy war

[Rhyfelwyr]

Off topic.

Surely if the Rebels are using chemical weapons then that will have an impact on how Israel can (or cannot) justify its actions?!

[Kralizec]

It goes deeper than that, allthough much of it does seem to boil down to religious differences.

IIRC Rafik Hariri (a Lebanese politician who was murdered) was a close friend of the Saudi royal family. Syrian involvement was always suspected, but I believe it was never proven.

Syria was one of the few (the only one?) which didn't lend Iraq any help when it invaded Iran. Syria and Iran became progressively friendlier afterwards. Besides that the Syrian regime and Iran have no religious hostility between them, another obvious reason was that Iraq and Syria did not get along for the rather mundane reason that they both tried to achieve a leading role in the Arab world.

Syria actively meddles in Lebanese affairs, but outside that I don't think they've tried to stir up the Shia in other Arab countries. Most gulf states, including Saudi Arabia, have Shia minorities under the boot. Iran does seem to take an active interest in these Shia, for which it is regarded with suspicion (and fear) by most of the Arab countries. Except Syria.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Missed opertunity to not aid the Iranian people for sure.

The only support that would have made a difference in the 2009 revolt in Iran was armed intervention. Other sorts of support, moral and otherwise, were extended but the rebellion was squelched pretty quickly.

Sometimes, foreign policy decisions come down to very simple metrics.

How many dead Nederladers were you willing to pay to assist the cause of Iranian freedom?

[Brenus]

“Since when does democracy say anything about which foreign policy a nation has to follow? “ Since when it didn’t? If a country policy is against your own interests, you bomb and invade. Ooops, sorry, you intervene and liberate…

“Europe doesn't even have enough weapons to help anyone, remember when we ran out of bombs in Libya?” Good opportunity to re-launch the production and to save jobs (and to make money: by the way, the French auto-proclaimed Socialist Party will soon enough privatise armament industry).

“If you have a problem with the UN doing nothing, ask yourself why Russia vetoed every idea of doing anything and why any nations have to have veto rights in the first place. The UN should be more like the senate of the old republic but since people don't even like the EU, I suppose they would hate that even more. So instead we give some nations veto powers, make sure the UN never gets anything done and then complain that it never really does anything...” They learned their lessons. Agree with deny fly zone then you’ve got a US base near your borders 2 years after…
And try to have a UN resolution on Israel, and see who is vetoing…

[Hax]

I would be rather careful when it comes to stressing the religious ties between Iran and Syria. I've argued in the past that any Iranian support of Hamas was relatively unlikely due to their different religious backgrounds, however I feel that I would not do so again: I feel that in many cases, religion will adapt itself to the geopolitical reality of a certain region, and although it may exert some influence over the formulation and phrasing of certain political ideas, within states (and certainly in the post-colonial Middle-East) it doesn't play that big a role. I feel that many times, the Shi‘a-Sunni is utilised in order to create a dichotomy that is easy to understand and apply, but it doesn't really reflect the geopolitical reality.

if Israel & USA would Invade Iran and Kick The Islamic Regime out !! now Assad would have gone 1 Year ago like anywhere else !!

Who are ​you?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I would be rather careful when it comes to stressing the religious ties between Iran and Syria.

I recall reading that Syrian Alawites have, despite their Shia roots, over time become much more Sunni in their outlook. IIRC the article actually said they were all but indistinguishable from regular Syrian Sunnis (Salafists etc excluded).

Wish I had the article to hand, but I don't.

[HopAlongBunny]

Relax. Perhaps all is proceeding as planned

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...200437919.html

[Empire*Of*Media]

Missed opertunity to not aid the Iranian people for sure. Things would have looked a lot better if we would have. Not sure who exactly Iran is supporting Assad or the rebels, but they sure have a big hand under the skirt

Its For Sure ISlamic Republic (DONT SAY IRAN !!) Supports Assad !! Assad is Shia And Their puppet ! ISlamic Republic Of Iran Has Significant Benefits & Profits in Syria !!
Why Russia & China Vetoed the UN ?! Why They Specially Russia Support Assad ?!! Because Islamic Republic Bribes Them !! Assad Has Nothing for Russia !! only It Is Iran That will do anything at all cost to dont let Assad Fall !! I Dont know why you dont know these !!!!!

And Hey! If you say Europe & USA dont want to cost anything for Iran!! let me tell you that they brought this cruel Islamist bloodthirsty totalitarian dictatorial regime !! it was i think 1953 that USA & Britain Removed The Beloved pacificist & Democracy bringer: Mosaddeq with a military Coup designed by CIA & MI6 because their profits & Benefits were in danger by him in Times of Pahlavi Dynasty !! he wanted a free & Advanced Iranian but they wanted Iran as a Profit Machine tool & Be Slaved for them !! and when they saw Mohamad Reza SHAH dont want to tribute USA & Britain anymore, they arranged & designed a Islamic Revolution & Brought Khomeini to power in 1979!!(as we see they made a huge mistake that Khomeini rfuse to serve US & Britain anymore and destroyed all of its enemies & Killed lots of Innocent people and stablized a killer regime!)
have you forgotten US & Europe Colonization in world !??
have you forgotten Vietnam ?
Do you Know They (Imperialism of US & Britain & Europe) splited Deutschland teroritories and Specially Kurdistans Independence Gaved to 4 Racist & Cruel Criminal of Turks & Arabs & Persians in Treaty of Severe in 1920??
and .................. will be too much to tel !! just wanna say that Imperialists governments of Europe & USA want Benefit & Controling Minds of People !! DEMOCRACY is a huge Deception and JOKE !! now the Direct Colonization has ended and the mind colonization has been started !! the example is the Hollywood !!!
i have much more to tell with proof but this place is too small to tell all the truth !!

Relax. Perhaps all is proceeding as planned

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...200437919.html

Exactly !! The New Middle East Designing By The Zionists Israel !! The Grand Master of USA !!

[Fragony]

The only support that would have made a difference in the 2009 revolt in Iran was armed intervention. Other sorts of support, moral and otherwise, were extended but the rebellion was squelched pretty quickly.

Sometimes, foreign policy decisions come down to very simple metrics.

How many dead Nederladers were you willing to pay to assist the cause of Iranian freedom?

Yeah that's a tricky question. But the Dutch army also lost troops in Iraq and Afghanistan while they could have been fighting Iran, which would have made more sense on the long term. Iranians are no donkey-herders they are our natural allies

[Hax]

I recall reading that Syrian Alawites have, despite their Shia roots, over time become much more Sunni in their outlook. IIRC the article actually said they were all but indistinguishable from regular Syrian Sunnis (Salafists etc excluded).

Wish I had the article to hand, but I don't.

Well, when it comes to actual practice, the differences between Shi'ites and Sunnites are pretty much neglectable. In its modern context, it's become much more a political allegiance than anything else.

[Fragony]

Well, when it comes to actual practice, the differences between Shi'ites and Sunnites are pretty much neglectable. In its modern context, it's become much more a political allegiance than anything else.

Oh common, completily ignore the demographics and 1600 years of war between them why not. There is a very big difference as there is a major dispute over religious leaderhip after Ali as he was the last descendent of Mohammed.

[Hax]

Which had virtually zero impact when it concerns the day-to-day life of Sunnis and Shi'a's. Of the few Shi'i states that have been existence only one (the Safavids) imposed their religion on the population and sought to proselytise them.

If you'd actually analyse the demographics, you'll notice that there hasn't been that much of a shift in the Sunni-to-Shi‘i ratio, but do you actually believe that mixed areas such as the Levant and Iraq were in constant conflict with one another? The historical reality is that even when Shi‘a states were nominally in control of an area (such as the Buyids, the Fatimids, and the Isma'ilis in Alamut) they were not really interested in spreading their particular interpretation of Islam.

There is a very big difference as there is a major dispute over religious leaderhip after Ali as he was the last descendent of Mohammed.

No. Just no.

The political dispute concerned the succession of Muhammad, not ‘Ali. With Muhammad's death, several candidates were put forward: the greater part of the Muslims chose Abu Bakr, but a minority suggested that ‘Ali (who wasn't Muhammad's descendant, but his nephew and the husband of Muhammad's daughter) would be better. This did not immediately result in a schism, which of course came (as you rightly point out) the moment Ali was assassinated, which (according to Shi‘i views) led to the usurption of power by Mu‘awiya. At this moment, the split was still purely political, it is only from the 9th century onwards that we find spiritual motivation to declare that leadership is passed on by blood (possibly through influence of Zoroastrian ideas of Kingship).

[Fragony]

Which had virtually zero impact when it concerns the day-to-day life of Sunnis and Shi'a's. Of the few Shi'i states that have been existence only one (the Safavids) imposed their religion on the population and sought to proselytise them.

If you'd actually analyse the demographics, you'll notice that there hasn't been that much of a shift in the Sunni-to-Shi‘i ratio, but do you actually believe that mixed areas such as the Levant and Iraq were in constant conflict with one another? The historical reality is that even when Shi‘a states were nominally in control of an area (such as the Buyids, the Fatimids, and the Isma'ilis in Alamut) they were not really interested in spreading their particular interpretation of Islam.



No. Just no.

The political dispute concerned the succession of Muhammad, not ‘Ali. With Muhammad's death, several candidates were put forward: the greater part of the Muslims chose Abu Bakr, but a minority suggested that ‘Ali (who wasn't Muhammad's descendant, but his nephew and the husband of Muhammad's daughter) would be better. This did not immediately result in a schism, which of course came (as you rightly point out) the moment Ali was assassinated, which (according to Shi‘i views) led to the usurption of power by Mu‘awiya. At this moment, the split was still purely political, it is only from the 9th century onwards that we find spiritual motivation to declare that leadership is passed on by blood (possibly through influence of Zoroastrian ideas of Kingship).

Really studying arab, the 5 good khalifs. Ali was the last of them. That's the schism

Edit, I see now that I misread your post. But it's still ball between these factions as can be seen in Iraq, wouldn't call it political though but it can be argued after Damascus became the capital

Before anyone says it, I know Damascus lays in Syria

[Hax]

Really studying arab, the 5 good khalifs. Ali was the last of them. That's the schism

Four rightly-guided Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and ‘Ali.

And it's called Arabic​.

[Husar]

have you forgotten US & Europe Colonization in world !??

No!! Have you forgotten the use of a full stop/period!??

It's nice of you to join our discussion but I think you're being a bit extreme.
You tell us that we know not enough about the region you come from and then claim to know exactly what our governments are up to and how bad they really are. I could just as easily claim that you don't know enough about democracy to know whether it is a deception or not.

[Fragony]

Four rightly-guided Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and ‘Ali.

And it's called Arabic​.

Ok 4, yes I screwed up apoligies, the 5 good emperors was Rome I got confused

[Empire*Of*Media]

No!! Have you forgotten the use of a full stop/period!??

It's nice of you to join our discussion but I think you're being a bit extreme.
You tell us that we know not enough about the region you come from and then claim to know exactly what our governments are up to and how bad they really are. I could just as easily claim that you don't know enough about democracy to know whether it is a deception or not.

oh Really ?!! so you know more Huh ?!! i told only a bit JUST A "BIT" of their colonization(Vietnam-Coups in Iran & Fall of democracy-engineering an Islamic Revolution-Backtracking the Treaty & Promises & Betraying The KURDs & Torning them to 4 Great Criminal Dictators) That this was only for the US and still i didnt told about the old fox Britain!! if i would be Face To Face i could tell you all in here its not capable to tell all, but the most funny & Intresting is, you cant believe those !! because i brought you Proof but your Eyes And Ears are Closed and your mind controlled !! i didnt refer to you but those governments not your governments !! they are the 1% percent controlling the world and engineering its future and you just exist!! we are nothing against them!! you in so called "1st World" just have almost NO WORRY about your life!! the material matters are fixed and developed year by year for you!! you dont know what is going on in other part of the world !! and its not important for you!! because you live in a comfort worry-free Life and if comes to you you will run of it!! why should the colonizations of Imperialists be important for you ?! FreeMasons & Zionists have the world for 200 years in secrecy!! they created the World War I & II!! you think that 2012 the Armagedon or The End, was a joke !!? no no!! that was the beginning of a great "NEW WORLD ORDER" !!
jonathan Cook wrote in 2008 that The Grand Master Of USA & Britain, Israel would create an Arab Spring that and Syrian Civil War to weaken the whole middle east !! then the Inflation and Social Disobedience will be Started In Iran!! Then Maybe we Call it the Third WORLD WAR started that not only middle east but korea ,Russia ,Armenia,Japan,China and.....will be involved!! afterward, the maps of world specially the middle east will be very much Changed !!
and manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy writers and western Theorists that telling about the The ELITE and The NEW WORLD ORDER and Creating So called Better world !!
there can be seen the truth!! but despite controlling you dont want to see !! dont want to get it !!
And Excuse me to Be So Straight ! i dont hate you or your people !! i hate those that sheds the blood of innocents and colonize the world and controlling the world and call themeselves THE BRIGHTER WORLD !! The Savior Of Humanity!!(Like What They Infuse to us by the HollyWood Movies)
Hope For Freedom and Peace in Humanity !!

[Fragony]

Come to think of it Hax, was I really wrong and aren't there in fact 5 as Mohammed was the first. Don't hit me if I am wrong, I'm not sure

[lars573]

Since when does democracy say anything about which foreign policy a nation has to follow?

Europe doesn't even have enough weapons to help anyone, remember when we ran out of bombs in Libya?

The only ones with enough explosives to do something are the USA and Israel, but Russia seems determined to stay with Assad.
If you have a problem with the UN doing nothing, ask yourself why Russia vetoed every idea of doing anything and why any nations have to have veto rights in the first place. The UN should be more like the senate of the old republic but since people don't even like the EU, I suppose they would hate that even more. So instead we give some nations veto powers, make sure the UN never gets anything done and then complain that it never really does anything...

You do know that the Galactic Republic is a space version of the Roman Republic right? And thus the Galactic Senate is the Roman Senate.

[Paradox]

Well, when it comes to actual practice, the differences between Shi'ites and Sunnites are pretty much neglectable. In its modern context, it's become much more a political allegiance than anything else.

It might be in the Levant, but the differences are quite clear when it comes to practice. Just because some of them have basic rights in Sunni states (ie somewhat the Gulf), doesn't mean that the Mu'awiya story is the only thing the Sunnah give them a pass on. It's hard to get in a conversation with anyone these days without them bringing up a Shia rumor that isn't even true, and there's always that saying: "rather a Jew than a Shii."

[Conradus]

Am I the only one who can't read those wall of text by Empire of without trying at least 5 times? And I still don't get half of it.

[HopAlongBunny]

Am I the only one who can't read those wall of text by Empire of without trying at least 5 times? And I still don't get half of it.

You are not alone

[Papewaio]

I think I need to take a Lamaze class to read that wall of text... And breath...