So many pigs

[Famine0]

So I saw this twitter update:

Updating the Aedui and Arverni farm descriptions so they are faction specific... so many pigs - Brennus

I study animal care at school so I'm kind of interested in the last part ('so many pigs'): does this refer to the different breeds of pigs used by the Celts? How much information is available on this? In terms of production, housing, etc...

And while on the subject, do any of you have some good information (articles, websites,...) on domesticated animals (especially farm animals) in the EB-timeframe? I know there was already a Molosser-like dog for a long time and some war horse breeds but thats about all I know...

Thanks!

[Maeran]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but will give a quick comment.
Animal bones are a common part of archaeological debris, from food and ritual deposits (e.g. burials of entire horses and dogs alongside human burials). As such you can probably get a lot of information regarding the general size and approximate 'type' of ancient breeds.

A quick search suggests that a lot of DNA work has been done on ancient livestock, but most of what I found was more concerned with the Neolithic origins of domestic cattle.
Quite a lot of surviving breeds are described as ancient, but it might be hard to verify that claim. I know that people argue about exactly what a Mollossian hound actually was, for example.

[Haithabas]

So I saw this twitter update:


I study animal care at school so I'm kind of interested in the last part ('so many pigs'): does this refer to the different breeds of pigs used by the Celts? How much information is available on this? In terms of production, housing, etc...

And while on the subject, do any of you have some good information (articles, websites,...) on domesticated animals (especially farm animals) in the EB-timeframe? I know there was already a Molosser-like dog for a long time and some war horse breeds but thats about all I know...

Thanks!

Perfect question for @Brennus

[Rex Somnorum]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but will give a quick comment.
Animal bones are a common part of archaeological debris, from food and ritual deposits (e.g. burials of entire horses and dogs alongside human burials).

Not just animal bones either. Well-preserved dung can provide an unexpected wealth of information, especially regarding diet of ancient livestock.

[Brennus]

Apologies it took so long to respond gents, I have been away for a week indulging in toxic cocktail of drink, camping and heavy metal.

I do not have my books to hand at the moment, however what I can remember on the subject is as follows.

Strabo recounts that of all the animals kept by the Gauls, pigs were the most frequent. On Gallic sites, pig bones make up the majority of zoological remains, followed by cattle, cervids (goats/sheep), horses, dogs, hens and finally wild fauna (who make up less than 2% of archaeozoological remains). No cats, donkeys or rabbits.

For the Pritanoi (or at least the actual Iron Age Britons in that part of the world) the order was as follows; sheep, cattle, pigs, dogs, horses. Almost no wild animals occur on British sites, nor do fish, cats, chickens, donkeys, rabbits or juvenile horses; the ancient Britons captured wild ponies and broke them in.

The Celtiberians preferred sheep/goats, cattle, pigs, horses, dogs and rabbits in that order.

The Irish preferred cattle most of all, but also kept cervids and dogs.

Now, to discuss the Celtic pig in more detail. The Celtic pig, along with all other Celtic domesticates, with the exception of Irish and British hunting dogs, was the smallest prehistoric breed from Europe. The Celtic pig had a reduced number of molars and a smaller head than the wild boar, yet it retained its tusks, hairy back and lean build. It was kept for two primary reasons; as a source of meat and as a means of disposing of household waste, as pigs will eat a wide variety of things. Pig leg bones were also used to produce woodwind instruments. During the day Gallic pigs were let loose in the nearby fields and forests, their foraging method was useful for upturning fallow fields, and they required little care. At night they were stored in corrals. There is evidence that some domestic pigs were cross bred with their wild cousins, but this was infrequent and does not appear to have been an attempt at improving the size of the domestic species.

For a nice introduction to the matter of livestock in Gaul I would suggest reading Patrice Méniel Les Gaulois et les animaux : élevage, repas et sacrifices

Would you like anymore information about Celtic livestock? I would be happy to help.

[Ca Putt]

Interesting!

Would you like anymore information about Celtic livestock? I would be happy to help.

Oh, please do! More specifically I'd like to know if this Celtic pig is what is so commonly depicted in celtic culture rather than the wild boar. I was also curious about the Wildbret-Cattle-Pig ratio but I pretty much answered that myself while I formulated the question^^

[cahtush]

Did the celts not have cats? :<

[Ludens]

Did the celts not have cats? :<

According to Wikipedia, the matter is in doubt. The first depiction of a domesticated cat in western Europe is from around ~100 AD (in Aquitaine); but the article cites a paper suggesting that the Britons may have had them before the Romans arrived.

[Brennus]

Interesting!


Oh, please do! More specifically I'd like to know if this Celtic pig is what is so commonly depicted in celtic culture rather than the wild boar. I was also curious about the Wildbret-Cattle-Pig ratio but I pretty much answered that myself while I formulated the question^^

This is a very good question, one which archaeologists have in fact attempted to address. More than any other animal, the pig is depicted in Celtic artwork (followed in frequency by deer, horses and birds). In some cases it is very easy to identify the depicted swine as a wild boar, however, due to the nature of many of the pieces of artwork this is impossible. As noted above, the Celtic pig shared many features with the wild species; tusks, hairy back, lean frame etc. Thus the appearance of these features on pieces of Gallic artwork cannot be used to identify one or the other. Nor can we expect Celtic smiths to have been so precise as to have taken note of the size of the skull of the animals they were depicting. The only clue is the tail. In domestic swine the tail is curly, as domestication results in a reduction in the number of vertebrae in the spinal column thereby causing many domestic animals to have shorter or curly tails, in wild boar the tail is straight. However most depictions of pigs do not include the tail, therefore we cannot be sure what animal is being depicted.

At the end of the day its up to the individual to decide what is being depicted; domestic pig or wild boar. Personally I would go for wild boar.

I do not know this word "Wildbret". What is it?

Did the celts not have cats? :<

The Gauls certainly didn't. The cat, along with the donkey and rabbit, was introduced by the Romans. Curiously the Scythians in the Bosporous, as a result of contact with the Greeks and Persians, had acquired the cat by the start of EBII, however they did not pass it on to their Celtic neighbours, altough they did provide the Celts with chickens.

According to Wikipedia, the matter is in doubt. The first depiction of a domesticated cat in western Europe is from around ~100 AD (in Aquitaine); but the article cites a paper suggesting that the Britons may have had them before the Romans arrived.

The domestic cat which we keep today is a form of the Egyptian wild cat. However, as many of you will already be aware, Europe has its own form of wild cat (unsurprisingly termed the "European Wild Cat"). This species is still extant in many parts of Europe, including Britain although based on a recent study it appears that the British wild cat will be extinct within the next few years. It is not impossible that the Britons did domestic their native species of wild cat, but they do not appear to have done so on a wide scale.

[Blxz]

Well-preserved dung can provide an unexpected wealth of information

I am a little bit titillated that one day in the distant future some archaeologist might be looking up my 'dung' and making some interesting find.

[Ca Putt]

Oh my bad, due to the nature of the word I skipped translating it^^ the english term is Venison. It discribes meat from a game animal.

Yes, the mere difference in head-size is indeed not a very usefull characteristic when dealing with stylized dipictions. To solve this little riddle, it would probably be usefull to know what virtues were associted with the pig by the celts. For "wild", "strong" and "free" are attributes many celtic warriors would find appropriate as deoration for their shield.

Did digs alo yield bones of Mice or other vermin? or are their bones simply to small to be found on a regular basis? because, when you on't have mice you don't need a cat :D

[moonburn]

considering the kelts had large farming estates i would be surprised they didn´t had vermin problems i mean where there is grain there´s a rat wating to steal it

but rats can be dealth with falcons dogs foxs and an assort of other animals including snakes so a cat wouldn´t be that much more effective except for one of their hunting tactics wich includes giving the mice a disease wich in turn makes the mice fall in love with the cat urine smell and you get where this is going (so one solution to a disease spreading vermim ended up trading one for another disease spreading animal ) (toxoplasmosis i believe is the name of the disease)

[B-Wing]

I can't believe this thread has gotten so big. I just hope there are war-pigs in EB2.

[Brennus]

In the case of thorough investigations, which involve sieving the ground, rodent bones are indeed recovered, as are amphibian and fish bones at times.

Is lieu of cats the Celts used dogs. The Celts appear to have bred three different types of dogs; wolf hound like animals (in Britain and Ireland), greyhounds and terriers. The latter of these were most likely used for pest control. However the fact that the Celts stored their grain in above ground (Gauls and Celtiberian) and subterranean granaries (Britons) would have aided in preventing the crop being consumed by rodents.

[Rex Somnorum]

No wardogs, though?

While on the subject of animals, will there be camel-mounted units?

[cahtush]

Well there was that boetian camel slinger...

[Maeran]

... it is difficult to get much range slinging a camel.

[Ca Putt]

And Boetian Camels are pretty hard to come by

[cahtush]

And Boetian Camels are pretty hard to come by

Especially the ones of the lesser spotted variety.

[Rex Somnorum]

Oh aye, I meant Bedouins...