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Thread: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Which is better in Rome 2: hoplites or pikemen? Why are pikemen considered better if their stats are worse? Why are they more expensive? All great questions.

    First, one must remember that raw stats don't tell the whole story and that what you get actually in practice is not a sandbox digits vs. digits result. Rome 2 goes beyond the comparing of spreadsheets when it comes to battle efficacy.

    While hoplites and pikes both boast the phalanx formation as a special ability one can toggle on or off, they behave radically different in game. Both are intended to be a primarily defencive unit and are not what one would call "shock infantry" (those being, the guys with the 50-60 plus damage and edged weapons such as swords and axes, whose primary role is to make mincemeat out of defencive infantry when they catch them out of formation or if they flank them). The rundown:

    Pikemen

    The sarissa wall makes it so that despite the paltry stats of low tier pikemen, the enemy simply dies before they can engage the actual men in the formation. Even levy pikemen shred equal tier (and even one tier higher) melee troops with smaller reach. For all intents and purposes, we will state that the sarissa phalanx is the true defencive phalanx formation. They annihilate cavalry in this formation and the enemy has to throw ungodly amounts of lower reach troops to break a pike block with a frontal attack. That is why "corner camping" with these guys is so good - because your flanks are protected by the limits of the battle map (the red edges). This is a very bad thing to do in multiplayer, but it works wonders in single player.

    The actual men holding the pikes are of rather mediocre stock and if something gets through they drop like flies or retreat. But nothing CAN get through, except for other pikemen in which case, whomever has the edge in quality will win rather quickly.

    Also, their shields are smaller and they are typically lightly armoured, so ranged fire really takes its toll on them. The ways your pike block can fail are:

    - Be pelted to death by slingers/archers
    - Be rear charged by cavalry
    - Be attacked from the two flanks by superior melee infantry (sword armed units attacking your two outermost units from the side, thus avoiding the pike wall)
    - Have their morale broken by flaming missiles, general death, neighboring unit losses, and/or a combination of the above factors.
    - Be engaged by vastly superior melee forces frontally, or by superior pikemen (levy pikes fighting Macedonian foot companions for example)

    You will love minor settlement battles when making use of a pike core and will shriek with horror if an enemy sallies in the field and he has triple the amount of cav you have. Basically make sure you have at least equal cavalry to your enemy if you will fight an offensive field battle using pikes. For defence, as mentioned, you can secure a high ground, corner or other such protected position and let the enemy break his teeth against your pike wall. In minor settlements your armies will frequently re-enact the battle from 300, as the enemy charges at pike walls upon pike walls. When assaulting a settlement, I choose the broadest avenue of approach towards the victory point, and use two lines of pikes that hop one before the other.

    Moving pikes to an offensive position is not done via a right click command, as that would make them discard their sarissas, break formation and go into melee with their butter knives!
    That will have drastic consequences and prolonged melee in this mode will result in heavy casualties, routs, chain routs and ultimately - losing the battle. You should attack with a pike block by simply ordering them to move (right click and hold, and drag the line to an appropriate width) further inside. Once they set foot and the enemy charges, wait a bit (and perhaps use the special ability "hold") and then order the second line to proceed further towards the victory point. Since your flanks are protected by the buildings in the settlement, the enemy will have no option but to face the pike block. Basically whenever you have to order your pikes to move or reinforce friendly units nearby, using the move command and re-arranging their formation is the only way you should do it.

    When fighting in the field, always make sure your last two units on each end of the pike block are not pikemen but other melee infantry. Be it a regular hoplite in phalanx formation, eastern spearmen in square formation (This formation turns them from chumps into champs. They become stationary but they will hold their own versus 4 times more men and not give in so that the enemy can start dicing at the exposed side of your pike block) or hillmen in shield wall. Basically anything that will fight reasonably well "on its own" and possibly surrounded from 2 or 3 sides.

    Hoplites

    These units, while still obviously great defencive troops with rather low offensive stats, are meant to be used somewhat differently than a pike wall. It must be noted that while the phalanx formation gives them some decent bonuses, they are in no way required to make use of it to be effective. Mid tier and higher hoplites have very good morale, endurance and armour, and thus they can be used as all purpose fighters. They can run around the battlefield, they can fight cavalry very well as they are armed with spears, they can defend choke points or stop charges in phalanx formation, they can be used a shock infantry and they are especially good at guarding the flanks of a pike wall.

    High tier hoplites have north of 80 armour, great shield values, lots of health and endurance. Especially the elite variants like Heroes of Sparta, Spartan Nobles, Shield Bearers and Mercenary Veteran Hoplites. These men love a prolonged fight. The longer the fight, the more value they have for the commander possessing them. They will not outfight dedicated melee infantry like Oathsworn, Silver Shield Swordsmen and Swordmasters in most cases, but they will be better all-round units in terms of their other uses (anti-cav, defence and missile defence). Plinking away with slingers at elite hoplites will accomplish little more than annoy them (unlike with pikemen who will give casualties).

    Hoplite heavy armies can lose to:

    - Pike heavy armies (if unable to flank)
    - Repeated rear charges from shock cavalry
    - Equal tier shock infantry in great numbers
    - Masses of horse achers (when commanded by a human player)

    Notice the "repeated"and "great numbers" above. While a pike block will crumble fairly easily if caught from an unfavourable angle (read: anything but their front), the hoplites have enough morale, armour, defence and health to withstand a couple of tactical blunders and swiftly regroup to face the enemy from the new direction. This, coupled with the fact that the hoplite phalanx is a much more nimble formation to turn around and reposition, and that the strict maintaining of it is not required for battle efficacy, makes them great reserve/flank troops to throw into wherever they are needed.

    In regards to upgrades and unit recruitment centers, hoplites benefit more from those as they are percentage based. A province with a tier 4 barracks, two smithies, two training fields and a tier 4 temple to Ares in the capital and 3 x tier 3 temples of Ares in the minors would produce elite soldiers that will have bars reaching or even exceeding the 100 mark. While the same benefits will be transferred to the pike units as well, the numeric advantages will be smaller (as 20% off 30 is less than 20% off 90 obviously).

    Hope this helps all the blossoming hellenic commanders out there!
    Last edited by Myth; 10-29-2013 at 13:15. Reason: fixed spelling mistakes
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Awesome, thanks for posting this. Obviously this began as a reply to my comment in the other thread, and became worthy of its own.

    Reading through the above, seems the true value of the Pontic Bronze Shield Pikes is that they combine roughly hoplite-level armor/melee with pikes (when in phalanx...othewise short swords similar to the Pontic Swordsmen). It occurs to me that they don't really need different units to protect flanks....one simply needs to keep the bookend BSP units out of phalanx formation. I need to rethink how I organize and deploy some of the armies in my Pontus AAR campaign.

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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Keeping them out of phalanx would get them massacred versus troops that are worth their salt. The kill chance and animation of short swords (hidden attributes of the battle models that affect troop performance) are inferior to dedicated melee troops. Not to mention that if they get charged when out of phalanx mode they will be trampled into the ground (lower bracing bonus, low kill chance when sword armed vs. cav)

    If you lack something other than pikemen for your flanks, at least set them at an angle so the enemy has to circle fully around your battle line to engange them unprotected.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

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    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Just a side note on right click/drag near/at/behind the enemy with pikes: this does not seem to work for me in RTW 2 (used to work very well in RTW 1). In RTW2, whenever, a pike unit following "move" command comes in contact with an enemy unit, it turns "into water" and try to flow around the encountered obstacle (the enemy) without any cohesion (losing the phalanx in the process). Stopping the unit when it has made the contact does not help (the pike unit still is in disarray): so the only way to go seems to be stopping the pike unit BEFORE it has made contact with the enemy.

    Right clicking behind the enemy worked differently (and, I must say very well) in RTW1. There, whenever a pike unit came into a contact with enemy, it kept phalanx formation and tried to push through the enemy with pikes (animation would change to aggressive phalanx attack animation). In RTW 2, the only way I have managed to replicate that phalanx "push through with pike tips" behavior is right clicking on the enemy when at close distance. This obliterates any line cohesion among several pike units (if you have them) though. Also, it results in pike phalanx units rotating once contact with the enemy has been made.

    Finally, in open field battles, AI enemies tend to prefer ignoring your pike center and, en masse, go for your flanks instead. So, an open field defensive battle against the AI almost always results in a dumbell fight with the AI army split between your two flanks and your pikes being completely ignored in the middle. Of course, this can be avoided by corner camping: but what fun is that? :) So, against the AI, I tend to go light on pikes (3-4 units at most in my armies) counting on the AI to commit to the dumbell formation. I use the pikes (thinly stretched) to create a highway for some heavy cavalry, shock infantry to use in order to be able to charge the split AI army in the rear (or attack the AI's skirmishers attending to my pikes while the AI melee is bunched up on my flanks). Of course, when playing against a human (in my case, in MPCs), it's a whole different matter. There, I'd go heavier in pikes.
    Last edited by Slaists; 10-28-2013 at 15:41.

  5. #5
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Strange, it works just fine with me. At some point when I come into contact i halt the phalanx using the stop command as there is no benefit to have them move as the enemy has been engaged already. But I definitely do not lose cohesion or the formation as I move them using the drag method. Something is wrong here...
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

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    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Strange, it works just fine with me. At some point when I come into contact i halt the phalanx using the stop command as there is no benefit to have them move as the enemy has been engaged already. But I definitely do not lose cohesion or the formation as I move them using the drag method. Something is wrong here...
    Hmm, maybe it's me using the up arrow move behind the enemy (this was supposed to help in keeping in CTRL grouped multi-unit cohesion) rather than right click, drag is the culprit here. Will experiment with that. But yes, in my case, phalanxes turn into a shapeless blob upon encountering an enemy when ordered to move past the enemy lines. Will try to make a screenshot later.
    Last edited by Slaists; 10-28-2013 at 16:43.

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Works fine here too. You let them march forward 'through' the enemy line and they stop automatically and engage. What I don't get is why they have a non phalanx mode and then a magical summon sarissa stance. Why can't they just run around with the things all the time and be smart?

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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I imagine it is pretty hard to code the breaking up of a sarissa phalanx unless the unit has a secondary weapon to resort to, effectively turning it into a glorified mob.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    What's the difference between hoplites and spear armed troops besides the lack of phalanx ability?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  10. #10
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    What's the difference between hoplites and spear armed troops besides the lack of phalanx ability?
    They are genrally of lower quality, sepcifically in the regions of melee damage, armour and morale. Think of them as the Spear Militia line from Medieval 2. Good arrow fodder, good when used in a square or similar formation but overall they are nothing to write home about.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

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    Member Member Kamakazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Ive been incorporating pikes into my armies now that this guide is up. They work decently for me. The right click and drag works but they do like to wrap around and lose cohesion at times. A great defensive tactic I learned was when you set a unit in square formation and then put the pikes inside that square they just sit there racking up kills. Might be something yall could test for yourselves
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    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamakazi View Post
    Ive been incorporating pikes into my armies now that this guide is up. They work decently for me. The right click and drag works but they do like to wrap around and lose cohesion at times. A great defensive tactic I learned was when you set a unit in square formation and then put the pikes inside that square they just sit there racking up kills. Might be something yall could test for yourselves
    m? Piked do not get square formation. At least mine don't. Hoplites do though and some other spear units.

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    Member Member MadKow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I think Kamakazi means you overlap two units, one with the square ability and one of pikes, maybe? While not realistic, this could cancel some of the vulnerabilities to flanking and rear attacks of the phalanx formation...

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    I imagine it is pretty hard to code the breaking up of a sarissa phalanx unless the unit has a secondary weapon to resort to, effectively turning it into a glorified mob.
    It must have been pretty ******* hard to code random birds, deer and other stuff we don't really need into the game instead of... oh whatever, I don't even know what they could have done to make it better than it turned out to be XD

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    Member Member Kamakazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKow View Post
    I think Kamakazi means you overlap two units, one with the square ability and one of pikes, maybe? While not realistic, this could cancel some of the vulnerabilities to flanking and rear attacks of the phalanx formation...
    think of it like a shiskabob Easterns spears in a square with a pike phalanx through them. If no one can get to the pikes flanks or rear they don't get skittish and bolt. It works like a dream.

    heres an AAR screen shot of the effects of this process
    Last edited by Kamakazi; 10-29-2013 at 22:25.
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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKow View Post
    I think Kamakazi means you overlap two units, one with the square ability and one of pikes, maybe? While not realistic, this could cancel some of the vulnerabilities to flanking and rear attacks of the phalanx formation...
    Yes, overlapping pikemen with any other melee unit (well, not any but any sort of defensive unit that's a bit better at responding to threats from different directions than front) is great and a fun thing to do. I like hoplites presonally or thureos spears. It's impossible to get through or past or to outflank and the pikes murder anything in front of them for as long as it holds together. Moving around like that is a bit annoying cause the game wont let you march two units 'inside' each other but it's little things like this that are the reason why battles may end up being boring (and I am not necessarily saying it's a bad thing, it's just a thing that probably can't be changed). The AI can't deal with things like that. If they ever do it, they do it by accident, which is still great but yeah...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I've been under the possibly erroneous impression that mixing units together like this would break their rank integrity and cohesion...leading to a big morale and defensive effectiveness hit. Apparently not the case?

    I've always tried pretty hard to keep units separate, not letting them march through each others' ranks, etc? Pretty annoying for skirmishers...wish they'd just flow around my heavy units as they retreat in skirmish mode, rather than just stomp straight through. I certainly leave them big enough gaps to do so, at least in Roman deployments. Maybe I've been worrying needlessly...

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I don't see why you'd think that. Making huge dense blobs of units makes it hard to get through them, if not impossible, they get morale bonuses from being close to friendlies. The only downside I can see is that it isn't very mobile (unless you take the time to micro it, which might require quite a lot of pausing) and that it's very vulnerable to artillery and missile fire in general.

  19. #19
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    In the previous TW titles that used the RTW engine stacking units on top of each other was a bad idea generally as fewer men swung their weapons in such limited space. Not sure how it works here but I view it as an exploit so I wouldn't do it regardless.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    The problem is the limited space available in some situations, like assaults on settlements, where it actually makes a lot of sense when everything 'stacks' on top of each other whether you want it to or not.

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    Member Member Kamakazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    It may be a tad of an exploit but its not without merit. I only really use it when doing a settlement battle or if im really hard up on having to defend a lopsided battle



    this is what im talking about. Also you can add more squares to the center if you want the full flank protected. I just didn't have the units for it in this defense.

    total men killed by pikes 816.
    Last edited by Kamakazi; 10-30-2013 at 16:36. Reason: added pics and clarifying evidence
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    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    In the previous TW titles that used the RTW engine stacking units on top of each other was a bad idea generally as fewer men swung their weapons in such limited space. Not sure how it works here but I view it as an exploit so I wouldn't do it regardless.
    In the older titles there supposedly was a melee penalty for units stacked on top of each other. Not sure it still applies in RTW 2.

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I'm not sure either, I'd like to know. It makes sense if there is though, at least there should be I guess but with this engine they're using since after M2, I'm not entirely certain. At least they put a good amount of effort into making the units in R2 'feel' as if they have some weight behind them. That was just lacking in Shogun 2.

  24. #24
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    The pike formation should be at least 4 men thick. Make it too thin and you lose the bracing bonus.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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    Member Member Kamakazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I will keep that in mind thanks
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    Member Member Ituralde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    The way you show it in the screenshot doesn't look like an exploit to me. You guard the flanks of your pikes with two other units in square formation. There's only minimal overlap, to be honest that's exactly what I took away from Myths original post. Anybody tried this in Multiplayer, wonder how it fares against a human opponent. You'd probably have to whittle it down with missiles or try to completely surround it to have a shot at the exposed back.
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  27. #27
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Being stationary (box formation) vs. a human would get you killed. He will command the wide flanks and be able to charge you in the thick of melee. You can't have melee troop superiority AND cav superiority in MP.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

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    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    I can attest that right click + dragging the pikes behind the enemy does work as the OP suggested: the pikes keep formation upon contact with the enemy.

    Using up (forward) arrow movement for the same results in pikes losing formation and trying to "flow" around the encountered enemy though (funny, up arrow movement was supposed to order the units to keep formation). It is the same with left click (a selection) and drag behind the enemy: pikes lose formation upon contact and "flow"...

    Bottom line: for phalanxes, right click, drag behind the enemy is the preferred method of attacking.

  29. #29
    Member Member Kamakazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Well if you are in multiplayer and defensive throw a back to back pike unit in the center. That way both units are flank protected

    []==[] kinda configuration
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  30. #30
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini guide for Rome 2 Total War: Pikemen vs. Hoplites

    Played more with a pike faction: this time, Egypt. CTRL + right click drag does not seem to produce consistent results. Sometimes the pike units engage correct upon contact, sometimes they disintegrate and try to "flow" around the enemy. Hmm... Seemed to work well for my Seleucid pikes.

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