The .org official top 10 best military commanders of alltimes

[Kagemusha]

By all means then, don’t look at accomplishments. Look at importance of the theater. Those who do a lot with nearly nothing are obviously inferior to those with the latest technological developments steamrolling their foes with numbers.

A Shelby or Forrest can’t possibly be better than a Grant because they didn’t possess the odds or prestige as head of the army.

With quite a few of the leaders listed, we are looking at technological advances that allowed them their edge.

Alexander, Caesar, Temujin and others did the same thing as Norman Schwarzkoph did except they had no one to restrain their conquests.

Who is the better commander, a Zhukov who sacrifices thousands of men to overcome a desperate defense by a few or a George Rogers Clark who with a few men convinces his enemy he has a superior force?

I guess we forget skill and go on the magnitude of show.

Concerning Zhukov and basically any military leader a fact that gets ignored a lot. A simple fact is that people die in wars. Many times the most important decision a commander does is who dies and when and how many will die in order for a goal to be achieved. If fighting a enemy of similar status or superior in strength this is most of the time the only way to win,unless you possess some other edge over the enemy.

It is done by concentrating enough power and resources at right place at the decisive moment. creating the critical mass needed, usually the outcome is of lot of dead bodies in the field. If more of them at the time or during an acceptable timetable are enemies, most of the time it will be judged as success. Many of the greatest military minds have already failed in it and no doubt many others will fail, like Napoleon at Waterloo, Lee at Gettysburg, Mannstein at Kursk (though he was not really the one to carry all the blame), Admiral Yamamoto at Battle of Midway and also admittedly Zhukov during the offensive towards Berlin.

[Kagemusha]

And I am not picking my favorites either. I am just doing the same thing and putting out a few names for others to consider.

A little blurb will not do much for some, who most my have never heard of. It is best if they do a little digging and see what they accomplished.

Should we consider the Khan because he was overall commander or Subutai who lead most of the battles?

Do we know what we are talking about or is it because we know the name from history books?

That is all.

Sorry about the double, but just have to knowledge the fact that Temujin would not have ever get to become The Khan unless he would not have been a military genious. Subutai was no where around at that point. If anyone is interested, you should definitely take a look his early years, when he started off with handful of warriors.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sorry about the double, but just have to knowledge the fact that Temujin would not have ever get to become The Khan unless he would not have been a military genious. Subutai was no where around at that point. If anyone is interested, you should definitely take a look his early years, when he started off with handful of warriors.

And probably spent the whole time wanting to slap Artimenner and Jeremus upside the head and tell them to just get the malfing village looted already.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'll start in with some USA generals.

Revolution/Rebellion War

Geo. Washington -- arguably the worst great general in history. His claim to fame is amazing success at retreating after tactical reverses. He accomplished this again and again, while maintaining his army as a "force in being" despite the repeated defeats, squalid discipline, and haphazard constitution of his forces. Oddly enough, though he was a master of the retreat -- the maneuver professionals consider the most difficult, he was pretty average the rest of the time; capable of some sharp operations such as Trenton and Princeton, but also of getting himself in a wringer as at Brandywine. Most of his troops worshipped him, despite his standoffish manner and tactical mediocrity. He nevertheless got the job done.

Between the States War

N.B. Forrest -- possibly the last of the great cavalry generals. Better than any of his peers at adapting effectively to the changed technological conditions of his era. His approach got the most out of cavalry on a battlefield that was no longer Napoleonic. On the downside, he was a loathsome human being on a personal level, embodying all of the worst qualities of Southern slave-ownership.

More to follow as time permits.

[Ibrahim]

for the age of exploration and enlightenment: Frederick II of Prussia, his brother Henry of Prussia, Maurice de Saxe, John Churchill (the duke of Marlborough), marshal De Villar, Turenne, the prince of Conde, Ferdinand of Brunswick (commander of the armies in western Europe during the Seven Years War).

for middle ages: Baybars. seriously, can't think of anyone better to add. him and Jan Ziska (or however you spell his name: led the Hussites in the Hussite war).

WW1: you could go with Lettow-Vorbeck.

[edyzmedieval]

Napoleon is on that list, but should we add a couple of his generals as well? Namely Michel Ney, Louis Alexandre Berthier (Staff corps and reorganisation), Louis Nicolas Davout, Joachim Murat?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Pericles. Military and political leader for most of Athens' "Golden Age". Overseer of many of the structures built on the Acropolis; transformed Athens into a Mediterranean power after the defeat of the Persians; promoted the arts and literature to the extent that Athens became the educational and cultural center of the ancient Hellenistic world; helped to found one of the most well known "democracies" in the history of Western civilization.

[Buzghush]

Pericles. Military and political leader for most of Athens' "Golden Age". Overseer of many of the structures built on the Acropolis; transformed Athens into a Mediterranean power after the defeat of the Persians; promoted the arts and literature to the extent that Athens became the educational and cultural center of the ancient Hellenistic world; helped to found one of the most well known "democracies" in the history of Western civilization.

You really think that he deserve to be in top 10? Seriously?

[ReluctantSamurai]

You really think that he deserve to be in top 10? Seriously?

Yes.

Bear in mind that every policy-maker for Athens at that time, had to be a general as well, which Pericles was. His cultural decisions are pretty well documented, but his military decisions allowed for the expansion of Athens into being the leader of the Delian League and thus acquiring tremendous power and wealth: ie. one of the most fabled societies in Western history...the Golden Age of Athens. Why would the empire-building efforts of Pericles be considered any less than those of Julius Caesar, for instance?

[Myth]

Well... How many battles has he fought? Increasing the influence of a city state is a bit different than outright occupying and subjugating a foreign nation. I will update the list, I wasn't on for the weekend.

I did go to a strip club on Saturday. Now I know how Caesar and Mark Anthony felt.

[ReluctantSamurai]

How many battles has he fought? Increasing the influence of a city state is a bit different than outright occupying and subjugating a foreign nation.

Tsk...tsk...where did your schooling in classical history go



I also wasn't aware that your 5-point list for pre-requisites was weighted in favor of #1.

Point-by-point:

1. Tactical prowess in the field

Admittedly a lightweight in this category compared to some others but:

-leads Athenian expedition to subdue Sicyon and Acarnania in 454 BC, concluding with a victory in 453
-leads Athenian expedition to expel the Spartans from Delphi in 448 BC, victory
-leads Athenian expedition to expel Thracian barbarians from Gallipoli, victory
-leads Athenian navy to victory in the Samian War, 440 BC
-leads Athenian forces in the attempt to subdue Megara in 431 BC, loss

(has anyone else being considered won a naval victory as well as one on land)

2. Achievement of strategic objectives and long term strategic planning

Except for the ill-fated foray into neighboring Megara, every expedition led by Pericles met its' objective and increased or strengthened the power and influence of Athens. In the long term strategic planning...can anyone object to Athens rapid rise to power during Pericles rule as being masterful?

3. Impact upon their contemporary world

Do I really need to list all the ways Athens under Pericles impacted the world, at that time?

4. Innovation in the field of warfare

Another lightweight category for Pericles. But the same can be said for the majority of names being suggested here.....

5. Additional actions or facts that make them stand out

I've already stated these...building Athens into a dominant power of the time both by his political leadership, his long-term empire building, and by leading military expeditions to maintain Athens' power and influence. So I'll ask the question again....how is this any different than a constant favorite in this type of discussion, Julius Caesar?

[PanzerJaeger]

I would like to nominate Walter Model for the "WW2 and Modern Times" category. A brilliant tactician and innovator, he probably had the most sophisticated understanding of the way modern warfare was fought of any senior level commander during the Second World War, both in theory and practice. He was an earlier adopter and champion of kampfgruppe tactics, which was a direct precursor of today's combined arms doctrines. "Hitler's Fireman" was constantly thrown into hopeless situations and managed to achieve results that far outweighed the resources he was given. The "defense in time" strategy he developed on the Eastern Front allowed his exhausted and depleted forces to avoid disaster and remain combat effective in the face of massive onslaughts of men and material that far exceeded his own on many occasions. Indeed, he stymied multiple major offensives on both the Eastern and Western fronts, including Zhukov's disastrous Operation Mars and Montgomery's Market Garden. He was also the most effective of the German generals in navigating and even manipulating Hitler's late war mania to get the authorizations and resources he needed to meet his battlefield objectives.

In my opinion, the most impressive aspect of Model's career was, ironically, his ability in retreat. Whereas many German generals who made their names during the heady days of Blitzkrieg flailed in defeat, Model was always able to organize orderly withdrawals, maintain combat effectiveness, and inflict large casualties on forces far stronger than his own. He was thrust into some truly dire situations, and managed to stabilize and even reverse them through force of will alone. That is the mark of a truly great commander - to lead well not when the tide is with you, but when it is against you.

[Brandy Blue]

(has anyone else being considered won a naval victory as well as one on land)

I don't think the Ancient Greeks even bothered to have different words for general and admiral. Both were called strategos. So I imagine that there was nothing special at the time about a successful general suceeding at sea as well. There simply was no distinction between a land general and a sea general.

Not that I am dissing Pericles. I am very ignorant about the guy and he may deserve all the credit you've given him, for all I know.

Edit: I take it back. I just checked up and they did have a word specifically for admirals - ναύαρχος. So it looks like Pericles isn't the only thing I am ignorant about.

[Fisherking]

ναύαρχος
Nαύαρχος

Are you sure that is an ancient term?

It is the modern term… sounds like nah-vah-hoss.

[Brandy Blue]

Good question, Fisherking. Actually, I'm not sure, and I'm not even 100% certain how to find out. I'll look into it if I can find the time.

[CBR]

This should cover it http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...up=nau%2Farxos

[Beskar]

Why haven't any of the WW1/WW2/etc suggestions been added to the list?

It is weird that a big period of more recent history is being overlooked in terms of fables and hand-me-down legends.

[Myth]

Why haven't any of the WW1/WW2/etc suggestions been added to the list?

It is weird that a big period of more recent history is being overlooked in terms of fables and hand-me-down legends.

I am to blame for this. I've neglected the updating of the OP.

[Beskar]

I am to blame for this. I've neglected the updating of the OP.

No problem, just wondering if they were not deemed as relevant!