Apparently the 300 refers to the number of Philistines Samson killed when he pulled those pillars down, and Themistocles is the name of the arch enemies of the Bionicles.Originally Posted by HoreTore
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Apparently the 300 refers to the number of Philistines Samson killed when he pulled those pillars down, and Themistocles is the name of the arch enemies of the Bionicles.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
you have yet to provide any creation of time/space/matter. You have provided none. as for oracles, i read first few they did not seem to fit a prediction or give time and fulfillment. Could you please provide the best one you have, with time written, than time fulfilled?, in same life time while could be true, does not count,.
I figured you were messing with me b-4. good laugh.
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
No, you will have to do that job yourself.
We're here to laugh at your ignorance, not educate you.
(and Pannonian has already given the most famous one anyway)
Last edited by HoreTore; 03-04-2014 at 00:28.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
In the same lifetime does not count? Are you aware that Greek states formed policies based on these oracles?
Example 1:
Athens sends to Delphi for an oracle seeking for advice on what to do about the coming Persian invasion. The oracle tells them to put their faith in their wooden walls. The Athenian strategists debate what this means. Some side with the interpretation that they should defend their city walls and make a stand on the Acropolis. Themistocles suggests that the wooden walls refers to their navy, Eventually they take this interpretation, and evacuate the whole of the Athenian population to Troizen across the bay, and if need be, elsewhere. Athens, left empty, is burned by the Persians. However, the Athenian strategy, based on their reading of the oracle, makes itself felt, as the military strength of the Greeks and principally the Athenians, transferred to their ships, defeats the Persians in the naval battle of Salamis. Thus we have the oracle, the discussion of the oracle and the formation of policy based on the oracle, and the fulfilment of the oracle.
Is there anything so substantial in the historical concerning the prophecies of the bible? Another oracle from that time resulted in Leonidas leading his 300 Spartans to Thermopylae to make a stand. We know the historicity of that stand because Alexander referred to it when he sent back 300 suits of Persian armour after Granicus, with a note singling out the Spartans for their absence.
Go read some history books. Heck, go read some books that aren't the bible.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
As have you.
Ignorant rambling does not equate proving the bible shows a perfect understanding of the universe. I am just guessing here, but I don't believe knowledge of physics to be your strongest ability.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
As to biblical inerrancy...
Jesus is mentioned as born in the reign of Herod the Great. At that time, Judea was a client kingdom of Rome. It also says that there was a census taken at his birth. The romans did not take a census in client kingdoms. They did take a census at a later date when Judea was a province, however, but that means Jesus could not have been born under Herod if the census story is true. Further, Jospeh lived in Galilee, which was not a part of the province of Judea, and so not subject to a census. A census also required the head of the household(the male) to announce his property, there would be no reason for a pregnant Mary to travel.
Thus, the story of Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to register as part of a census under Herod is obvious nonsense. That makes no difference for sane Christians who can happily appreciate the story for its moral value. It does, however, become a significant problem if you treat it as an authoritative history book.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Ya know... If you start interpreting what Luke actually was saying here - this can be explained and supported by outside historical facts... But if that is not an option and you have to take the text at face value as a modern grammar nazi, HR wins this.
Status Emeritus
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
FIFY
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Long story short, there were these people called the Delphs, who everyone hated and wanted to destroy. Their most prominent emperor, Fabulous II, built the oracles to warn them of the Persian invasion.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Interpretation is not an option for a literalist.
Anyway, watcha talking about? They did have a census under Herod?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
i claimed the bible was only account of time space matter in the beginning. You said that was false, you provided a wiki link that does not help your case, than claim i need to be educated. The burden of proof is up to you to counter my op's claim of genesis only account of time/space/matter creation.
I am not saying they cant be true in same lifetime, i am saying to prove true they would have to be written, than fulfilled later that same author/person could not be around to see them fulfilled.
Go read some history books. Heck, go read some books that aren't the bible.
show me the documents when written/when fulfilled in your claims, you wont be able to, they are written after the fact, does not make them false but does nothing to prove they are true.
please read my op, it will fix your misunderstanding i hope. what were talking of is my claim that only genesis starts with the creation of time/space/matter, of all religious books and writings..
off topic, please this is easily refuted, you could search online for your answer. Claimed contradictions i have seen around 400, answered 400. You just dont care or want a answer so you like to hear it to be false, so you never investigate. Contradictions are not topic, i have done them b-4 on this thread and allowed people to bring up top 3 each. I will do so again if you wish on another thread, maybe one focused on contradictions [supposed].
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
You had never even heard of the Greco-Persian war before, this proves you have absolutely no authoritative knowledge of the classical world.
You can't even begin to address these contradictions(as you call them), as you do not have the required knowledge to do so.
Last edited by HoreTore; 03-05-2014 at 00:16.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
To be able to think the Bible explain physics, I for one think one have to be insane, uneducated, or religiously brainwashed.
Quite possibly a combination of more than one factor.
The universe is a great and wondrous thing, and I must quite frankly say I get upset when people try to diminish the sheer WORK of humanity's combined intelligence to reach where we are today.
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 03-05-2014 at 00:23.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Thankfully, almost all christians refer to the bible for its moral values and tales of redemption and mercy, not scientific facts.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Yeah, because religious books are like a smörgåsbord... Pick and choose the parts you like.
That's why religious people never go absolutely bonkers.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
The bonkers ones are usually the ones saying you can't pick and choose: "there's only on truth, and it's mine!!11"
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
I dunno... I think christianity would be better off if the pope shot anyone through the neck, claiming to be christian but didn't follow his principals.
Not that his truth is worth more than anyone else's, but because then the rest of the world would have a clear source to blame for the ****, and would be able to reason towards a single entity.
As it is now, we have the scientific world, and then a bunch of varied freaks running around with their own idea of what it means to be a good christian.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
You need to look what is claimed in the NT and Luke particularly since this is considered THE record of the nativity story.
King James:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Douay-Rheims:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
New English Bible:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Two clues are given to the time this happened and that can easily be verified by other records. The decree issued by Gaius Octavius is the first. Did he ever decree such a census? Yes he did and he lists them in his Res Gestae Divi Augusti (§8). One in 28 BC, another in 8 BC and the last in 14 AD. Which one is closest to the Birth of Jesus? It would be the 8 BC one. So that's a start. Then the other clue is; it happened during the reign of Quirinius (spelled the greek way Cyrenius in NT) as governor of Syria. When was Qurinius the legate of Syria? Documented by many contemporary historians to be around 6 AD - 12 AD.
Right, so off the bat if we peg the birth of Jesus to 0 AD we are off with over a decade on both the census and when Quirinius was legate of Syria. Any literal interpretation of the Luke account shows that he was off by too many years, as your Herod (who died in 4 BC) comment also states. He seems to be taking facts from the history, but are not able to match the dates and as such seems to be creative in his narrative. Some claim that Jesus was born sometime around 7 - 4 BC which fits into the Herod period and the Census of 8 BC - but are off with over a decade on the Quirinius claim.
So how to solve this? Well one solution is bad translation. The word "first" (prot) can also be translated as "prior" which then would indicate that it happened before Quirinius became legate of Syria (one of his first duties was to conduct a census in the area). The other solution is that Quirinius somehow was involved in the 8 BC census which was his first census and the one he conducted as legate was the second.
And the comment of having to travel to Bethlehem from Galilee is also explained. If one actually reads such a census, you will discover that people travel from wherever they are currently staying to their original home to register at that census.
Status Emeritus
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
It's more trickier than that, Sigurd. Augustus did hold a census before year 0, but not in Judea. The Romans did not order a census of citizens of client states; that's not Roman territory proper. Citizens of client states were not taxed by Rome, thus no reason to hold a census.
And Galilea was never a Roman province; Joseph as a citizen of Galilea would thus never be subject to a census.
And it wasn't standard practice for people to travel to the censor either; it was the censor who travelled to the citizen.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Ah, but you see. Josephus does record that a census for tax purposes was conducted by Quirinius for the area of Syria and Judea in 6-7 AD. And it was not only for tax purposes that Octavius conducted his world wide census. He was genuinely interested in how the population of the world increased. I am not entirely confident on the sources here, but he made legislation to ensure faster growth of the population and used the three world wide censuses mentioned in his Res Gestae to check if it worked. He even proudly numbers the total population of the world for each census.
If a province was taxed based on how many originated from that province - then people would have to travel from all over to their home province for registry. A slimy way to increase taxes though.
Not many censuses survived, but there are records from a few (e.g. 104 AD & 119 AD) where one of the entries is current living location. Where one can clearly see that people traveled from all over to come and register at the census.
It could be that a province didn't like to be taxed based on the many immigrants staying there, which ultimately was the purpose of such censuses. Go home to where you belong and register there.
Status Emeritus
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Yes, a census was conducted in the provinces of Judea and Syria, and Judea only became a province way after Herod died. Galilea wasn't part of the roman province of Judea, thus no reason to hold a census on someone from Galilea.
The only area which wasn't a Roman province who also had a census was Egypt, and that's because the Ptolemies held their own census. The client state Herod ruled wasn't subject to the kind of tax which requires a census.
Augustus may have bragged about the population numbers revealed by the census, but that was never the reason for holding a census. The census when Judea became a province(and thus introduced a capitation tax) sparked a huge rebellion, something that's happened several other places the Romans held a census. Augustus would never "count for the sake of counting" when doing so risked sparking a rebellion in an already shaky empire.
It is entirely more likely that Matthew and Luke simply placed the nativity story into two already well known stories from Judea(death of Herod&the census), than the alternative: completely irrational and innovative actions by the Romans lacking any confirmation in other sources.
A census taking place in a client state would be a massive event. There would be talk of it. There isn't.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Excuse me sir,
Your mortal dates and even perception of the passing of time are irrelevant to an ETERNAL spaghetti monster. Who are we to question the timing of an immortal creator/god? If we choose to believe in the concept of a god, such as the god of Abraham in the many forms it has been written about, how would we give such a being the powers we attribute to it, and then question ANY form that power chooses to take, at ANY time it chooses to take it?
This is the internet, granted you can make whatever claim you choose to make. thanks a lot, buddy, don't bother to provide any evidence for this. I will also share an anecdotal story - I've heard some PHDs talk about Genesis as well. One in particular also served as a minister for his Baptist congregation. I distinctly enjoyed his discussions about certain exiles being ridiculed while in Babylon because their religion had no creation story. Their response had some parallels to the Epic of Gilgamesh. That particular PHD minister wasn't the least embarrassed for his religion, as in his ministrations he preferred to preach the love found in the new writing.only one creation account that has the support/backing of thousands of PHD scientists around the world
Seventh thread, congratulations, you are nothing if not persistent.
"The good man is the man who, no matter how morally unworthy he has been, is moving to become better."
John Dewey
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
no idea were your getting that from, plus has nothing to do with biblical authority. I simply said another time i have and will yet again, answer anyone's top 3 objections like these on another thread. Your objections you bring up are well know and long ago refuted, easily found online.Over and over you ignore points, than try to attack me personally, to avoid the arguments you first come up with. This is a logical fallacy.
this would do you well, not just this thread but over and over
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
just wondering why would you say so? what would you say to the many phd scientist who have degrees in astronomy,physics,cosmology etc that would disagree with you. Maybe it is that you have been indoctrinated into certain thinking? so you view with tainted glasses and see what you want see? I also love what we have learned and gotten us here, thank those creationist for starting science
Stephen Snobelen, Assistant Professor of History of Science and Technology,
University of King’s College, Halifax, Canada
Here is a final paradox. Recent work on early modern science has demonstrated a direct (and positive) relationship between the resurgence of the Hebraic, literal exegesis of the Bible in the Protestant Reformation, and the rise of the empirical method in modern science. I’m not referring to wooden literalism, but the sophisticated literal-historical hermeneutics that Martin Luther and others (including Newton) championed. It was, in part, when this method was transferred to science, when students of nature moved on from studying nature as symbols, allegories and metaphors to observing nature directly in an inductive and empirical way, that modern science was born. In this, Newton also played a pivotal role. As strange as it may sound, science will forever be in the debt of millenarians and biblical literalists.
“Science was not the work of western secularist or even diest, it was entirely the work of devout believers in a active,conciuos, creator god”
rodney stark for the glory of god how monotheism led to reformations,science,witch hunts and the end of slavery Princeton university press 2003 p376
The theory of planetary orbits was invented by Johannes Kepler (1571–1630), famous for claiming that his discoveries were ‘thinking God’s thoughts after him’. Kepler also calculated a creation date of 3992 BC, close to Ussher’s.
The theory of gravity and the laws of motion, essential for the moon landings, was discovered by the creationist Isaac Newton (1642/3–1727).
The moon landing program was headed by Wernher von Braun (1912–1977), who believed in a designer and opposed evolution. And a biblical creationist, James Irwin (1930–1991), walked on the moon. See also Exploring the heavens: Interview with NASA scientist Michael Tigges.
Physics—Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin
Astronomy—Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Herschel, Maunder
some uneducated phd creationist astronomers,cosmologist, today
Dr Ronald G. Samec, Astronomy
Dr John Hartnett, Physics and Cosmology
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr Thomas Barnes, Physics
Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics
Dr Xidong Chen, Solid State Physics, Assistant Professor of Physics, Cedarville University
Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr Leroy Eimers, Atmospheric Science, Professor of Physics and Mathematics, Cedarville University
Dr Robert Gentry, Physics
Dr Jonathan Henry, Chemical Engineering, Astronomy
Dr Russell Humphreys, Physics
Dr David King, Astronomy.
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysics
Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr Keith Wanser, Physics
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
I am sorry for above post, off topic, this is more for creation/evolution thread.
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
never said god could not take form of spaghetti, i said why did your god take so long to introduce himself. if you say your god that appears like spaghetti, but has all the attributes of the god of the bible, than maybe allow me to introduce you to the god of the bible?.
Are yous saying the jews had no creation account while in exile? Please read my 6th thread on has the bible been influenced by other religions.
thousands of phd that believe in genesis.
There are thousands of phd scientist who reject evolution and believe in creationist
Darwin SkepticsA Select List of Science Academics,Scientists, and Scholars Who are Skeptical of Darwinism
a list of almost 3,000 scientists and professors who reject Darwinism most of whom hold a Ph.D. degree in some field of science.
This is but a small percentage of the estimated 113,000 Darwin Skeptic scientists and academics in the
United States alone, accordingly to a Harvard researcher (Gross and Simmons, 2006).
http://www.rae.org/pdf/darwinskeptics.pdf
http://www.creationresearch.org/ over 1 thousand members with scientific degrees this is just one organisation
650 with phd
http://www.creation.or.kr/ at one point had 2,000 phd with 200 non phd
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/ not creation but scientist who dont believe in evolution last i herd over 800
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/ list of some creation scientist
http://www.answersingenesis.org/ run by many phd scientist
http://creation.com/ run by many phd creation scientist
http://www.icr.org/ run by many phdcreation scientist
korea asociation of creation resherch kacr over 1,00 members 500 phds
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v4/n2
some young earth creation collages with many phd scintist
http://www.liberty.edu/
http://www.bryan.edu/
http://www.cedarville.edu/
there are creation groups poping up all over the world turkey has the largest % population young earth creation at 85% which is mostly do to this one guy http://www.harunyahya.com/
these are just some american ones im aware of.
Last edited by total relism; 03-06-2014 at 00:18.
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
There's more than 40.000 people getting a phd every year in the US. Most of them will not get a phd in a subject that have relevance to evolution. Ergo, they're not more educated on the topic of evolution than the average population.
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
TR, you can have a PHD and still be a complete religious nutter.
Try making an actual scientific peer revised report on the matter? It has been tried, you know. In all manners of ways.
It's just that your case gets laughed away just so easily...
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Science is not a democracy.
I would suggest watching the Cosmos TV series. Either the original or the new one.
Also anything by David Attenborough.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Well, duh. If they say something that goes against the infallible bible then they are just atheist evilusionists who spreads satanic lies.
There is nothing like a good case of science denial and religious fanaticism. Yummy!
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 7
Got to remember that science is also full of prophecies (theories) that are predictions that have been proven true again and again both during the lifetime of the writer and beyond.
Has a creation story that accurately describes the start of the universe and why we have so much hydrogen and even the ratio of neutrons to hydrogen in the universe.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
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