!! The Oldest Discovered Skeleton of Ancient Iranian Lovers !!

[Empire*Of*Media]

!! The Oldest Discovered Evidence of Ancient Iranian Lovers !!

There is a very Popular and Famous Image in University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, known as one of the Iranian lovers!! Better Say Kurdish Iranian Lovers!

Shahrekhabar , 1351 - 1972 - The Archeologist who were digging at the mound Hasanlu (Ancient Name is Unknown - its In NAGHADA in Kurdistan Of Iran-Mukryan, where Both Turks & Kurds Live) they could not believe what they saw!! The Iranian and American research team led by Doctor Robert H. Dyson Did The research on this ancient hill where the grave was found . The grave is about 3 thousand years old where The skeletons were found two people embrace each other . But in graves what is only left is a boulder at the top of the head and there is there was no other object , and since then they have been known as "The Ancient Lovers" !!

Museum of the University of Pennsylvania in 2005 to disseminate the research team working in the excavation reports Hasanlu hill are ancient mound dating back to the 6 to 8000 thousand BC!!. Over the years, in the University of Pennsylvania Museum, That Picture is one of the most remarkable Images in The Whole Museum.



if thats true in the estimating of the Year and not older, i think it backs to Mannaeans or maybe Medians or Maybe Even Hurrians!! dont know ! dont have the direct source unfortunately!!

[Fragony]

Not buying it, you don't lie down like that, go away

[Empire*Of*Media]

Not buying it, you don't lie down like that, go away

what ??!! is that Spam ?

[Fragony]

what ??!! is that Spam ?

Yeah kinda guilty, less !! In threads please, unless there is something to counter there shouldn't be any explamation-marks.

So I hereby officially point out that it was always a bad idea to give giraffes tango lessons. I can back up why.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Yeah kinda guilty, less !! In threads please, unless there is something to counter there shouldn't be any explamation-marks.

So I hereby officially point out that it was always a bad idea to give giraffes tango lessons. I can back up why.

are you fine bro?! your not Drunk ?! :D

[Fragony]

Just messing

[TiagoJRToledo]

!! The Oldest Discovered Evidence of Ancient Iranian Lovers !!

There is a very Popular and Famous Image in University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, known as one of the Iranian lovers!! Better Say Kurdish Iranian Lovers!

Shahrekhabar , 1351 - 1972 - The Archeologist who were digging at the mound Hasanlu (Ancient Name is Unknown - its In NAGHADA in Kurdistan Of Iran-Mukryan, where Both Turks & Kurds Live) they could not believe what they saw!! The Iranian and American research team led by Doctor Robert H. Dyson Did The research on this ancient hill where the grave was found . The grave is about 3 thousand years old where The skeletons were found two people embrace each other . But in graves what is only left is a boulder at the top of the head and there is there was no other object , and since then they have been known as "The Ancient Lovers" !!

Museum of the University of Pennsylvania in 2005 to disseminate the research team working in the excavation reports Hasanlu hill are ancient mound dating back to the 6 to 8000 thousand BC!!. Over the years, in the University of Pennsylvania Museum, That Picture is one of the most remarkable Images in The Whole Museum.



if thats true in the estimating of the Year and not older, i think it backs to Mannaeans or maybe Medians or Maybe Even Hurrians!! dont know ! dont have the direct source unfortunately!!

Well, to be fair, Kurds are an Iranian people, and the Kurd language originated from the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages... To call them Kurdish Iranian is kind of redundant, and it resembles 19th century nationalism, doesn't it? If they date back to c. 1000 B.C, wouldn't it be more accurate to call them Persian, or even Semitic?

Regarding the excavations, it should be noted that Teppe Hasanlu was mostly excavated from 1956 to 1974, and the archaeological procedures from these decades are not what we would call "trustworthy". I only hope that the publication project initiated in 2007 will re-interpret the data collect from those "shady" decades...

[Empire*Of*Media]

Well, to be fair, Kurds are an Iranian people, and the Kurd language originated from the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages... To call them Kurdish Iranian is kind of redundant, and it resembles 19th century nationalism, doesn't it? If they date back to c. 1000 B.C, wouldn't it be more accurate to call them Persian, or even Semitic?

Regarding the excavations, it should be noted that Teppe Hasanlu was mostly excavated from 1956 to 1974, and the archaeological procedures from these decades are not what we would call "trustworthy". I only hope that the publication project initiated in 2007 will re-interpret the data collect from those "shady" decades...

i didnt say they are 100% sure to be Kurd! just said they maybe ancient kurds! but....
َAre you kidding or you Really don know ?! See These : >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people ---- http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...-and-persians/ ---- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_languages
sorry i dont know other sources because English Sources in wikipedia is very very limited on kurds and most trusted and referenced is from German & Russian Archeologists.you must first read english then german then its "کوردی" and "Kurdî" look pictures if it has.

so how a separate almost not intacted people with Ancient Separate Language apart from its neighbours and with its independent History & Literature can be from some nation that is 50% destroyed with high Arabic & Turkish Influence on them?!

im surprised i first thought your Persian!! why you say this?! the word "persia-Persian" was because only they/have had/have government in the History of Iran! and the rest Nations and the rest Nations & Ethnics were unknown to the forighners and westerns! and they only used the word Persian for all that wrong damn wrong! Iran DOES NOT MEAN PERSIANS only but Kurds - Baluchis - Gilakis - Mazanis - Lurs & ......
before Achamenids it was MEDIAN Empire, the ancestors of Modern Kurds, the Persians only had Power in times of Kurosh The Great (Cyrus) that was Half median and half persian. but before that the word "Persian" was not important to the world! and The Persians got writing & civilization from Medes (Medians) and before that the Persian even did not have Cities (Shar) and they got everything from Medians & Assyrians & Babylons. the Word "iran" means Aryan Land! and the aryan race backs to 3500 years ago! while for example Ancient Kurds that was Gutis - Hurris - Ilamis - Mannaea - Karda & Karduchis & .... that backs to more than 6500 years old!

so please before you make a nation humble to someone else research and see many sources.

this is good too for Start >> http://www.kurdishcentre.org/kurds/kurdish_history.html ---- http://kurdistanskyscrapers.com/forum/3539274/ And Vladimir Minorsky and David Neil MacKenzie's "Trusted" Researches and Books

[TiagoJRToledo]

i didnt say they are 100% sure to be Kurd! just said they maybe ancient kurds! but....
َAre you kidding or you Really don know ?! See These : >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people ---- http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...-and-persians/ ---- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_languages
sorry i dont know other sources because English Sources in wikipedia is very very limited on kurds and most trusted and referenced is from German & Russian Archeologists.you must first read english then german then its "کوردی" and "Kurdî" look pictures if it has.

so how a separate almost not intacted people with Ancient Separate Language apart from its neighbours and with its independent History & Literature can be from some nation that is 50% destroyed with high Arabic & Turkish Influence on them?!

im surprised i first thought your Persian!! why you say this?! the word "persia-Persian" was because only they/have had/have government in the History of Iran! and the rest Nations and the rest Nations & Ethnics were unknown to the forighners and westerns! and they only used the word Persian for all that wrong damn wrong! Iran DOES NOT MEAN PERSIANS only but Kurds - Baluchis - Gilakis - Mazanis - Lurs & ......
before Achamenids it was MEDIAN Empire, the ancestors of Modern Kurds, the Persians only had Power in times of Kurosh The Great (Cyrus) that was Half median and half persian. but before that the word "Persian" was not important to the world! and The Persians got writing & civilization from Medes (Medians) and before that the Persian even did not have Cities (Shar) and they got everything from Medians & Assyrians & Babylons. the Word "iran" means Aryan Land! and the aryan race backs to 3500 years ago! while for example Ancient Kurds that was Gutis - Hurris - Ilamis - Mannaea - Karda & Karduchis & .... that backs to more than 6500 years old!

so please before you make a nation humble to someone else research and see many sources.

this is good too for Start >> http://www.kurdishcentre.org/kurds/kurdish_history.html ---- http://kurdistanskyscrapers.com/forum/3539274/ And Vladimir Minorsky and David Neil MacKenzie's "Trusted" Researches and Books

From the first link you provided: "They are an Iranian people and speak the Kurdish languages, which are members of the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages". So I don't really see how this is any different from what I claimed on my post.

If you want to cite sources, here are some you seem to not want to mention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ple#Prehistory ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Origins. So your argument is fundamentally flawed, as Kurds (as a separate ethnic group) are only mentioned in the 11th century A.D. Just because someone speaks a different dialect of a language, that alone does not separate them as a culturally different people.

And to claim the Median Empire as the "ancestor" of the Kurds is like saying that the Kievan Rus is the "ancestor" of the "Ukrainians", when in fact the Kievan Rus is the birthplace of Russia, not only as a culture, but as a nation.
You can only trace similar origins of the Kurds to Median tribes, and cannot make them "direct descendants" of the other. This is pure 19th century nationalist rhetoric, and that just doesn't fly anymore ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish...e#20th_century

This is why I claimed that calling those two skeletons, who are dated to c. 1000 B.C (even before the Median Empire), "Kurdish Iranian" is redundant, and quite honestly, semantically and anthropologically wrong. You can say they might've been from the Kurdish tribes, but you can't make a connection between them and the modern nationalist conception of Kurds and Kurdistan.

And if you really want to nitpick and objectively situate the skeletons in a political entity, then Teppe Hasanlu would be situated, at the time, in the territory of the Nairi Tribes and the Urartu Kingdom, so there's also that.

I'm sorry if this offended you, it was not my intent. I'm just trying to avoid falling into 19th century conceptions and misconceptions.

[Empire*Of*Media]

From the first link you provided: "They are an Iranian people and speak the Kurdish languages, which are members of the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages". So I don't really see how this is any different from what I claimed on my post.

If you want to cite sources, here are some you seem to not want to mention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ple#Prehistory ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Origins. So your argument is fundamentally flawed, as Kurds (as a separate ethnic group) are only mentioned in the 11th century A.D. Just because someone speaks a different dialect of a language, that alone does not separate them as a culturally different people.

And to claim the Median Empire as the "ancestor" of the Kurds is like saying that the Kievan Rus is the "ancestor" of the "Ukrainians", when in fact the Kievan Rus is the birthplace of Russia, not only as a culture, but as a nation.
You can only trace similar origins of the Kurds to Median tribes, and cannot make them "direct descendants" of the other. This is pure 19th century nationalist rhetoric, and that just doesn't fly anymore ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish...e#20th_century

This is why I claimed that calling those two skeletons, who are dated to c. 1000 B.C (even before the Median Empire), "Kurdish Iranian" is redundant, and quite honestly, semantically and anthropologically wrong. You can say they might've been from the Kurdish tribes, but you can't make a connection between them and the modern nationalist conception of Kurds and Kurdistan.

And if you really want to nitpick and objectively situate the skeletons in a political entity, then Teppe Hasanlu would be situated, at the time, in the territory of the Nairi Tribes and the Urartu Kingdom, so there's also that.

I'm sorry if this offended you, it was not my intent. I'm just trying to avoid falling into 19th century conceptions and misconceptions.

and friend i told you Iranians are not PERSIANS that is a nasty false!! and then i said We are Iranian Race (or Aryan) NOT PERSIAN!! consider difference between them. and of course before Aryans too in scattered regions it was great civilizations date backs to more than 7000 years!

and.......i said in here :https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053526409 :

He had me at "Sumerians, an other Kurdish civilisation".

Yes it is !
(indeed we have too many common in ancient believes & customs & clothes & languages, between these civilizations and modern now Kurdistans!) :
actually The One Word KURD now has came from many paople that time :
Sumerians - Pre Elamies - Guties - Mitannies - Mannaeans - Hurrians (http://glosbe.com/en/en/Hurrians) - Karda - Kurdo - Lullubians - Elamies (or Ilam now) (These 1500 BC and Older) - Medya (Media) - Karduchians (Kardochians by Xenophon's) - (1000 BC until Sassanids)
The Kurds does not mean a one united nation in ancient times !! even now The KURDISH Language Consist of Many Dialects & Many Many Accents !!
The Kurdish Dialects now are : 1 Northern Kurmanji (32 Million Speakers)- 2 Central Kurmanji (Sorani) (10 Million Speakers) - 3 South Kurmanji (Kalhori-Laki-Fayli) (6-7 Million Speakers) - 5 Gurani (Gorani) & Zaza (Unknown Exactly - Estimately 5-6 Million) !!!!
Kurdish Language Is The Most Wealthiest & Richest Languages in in a row of Indian Languages & Dialects !!

so we dont see this in any language except the first Civilizations!!

the sad matter fact is that no really research has been done by archeologists except those Russians & Germans i said, and it was in a bad time (WWI - WW II) and plus, it did not go worldwide! thats the why that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations not only the world or even Persians, but even ourselves!!

and no again i didnt tell that that picture 100% is from Kurdish Median or not median kingdoms!! i said might!

look at views! if i would wrote "the most Old HELLENIC or ROMAN Lovers huge views would be seen!! you see the westerns only care for Hellenics & Romans! that they back 500 BC to 500 AD! but Ancient Eastern & Near Eastern & Mesopotamian Civilizations back 6000-7000 to BC 700 AD (until Islam) with more wealthier and more humanitarian civilizations and even some of them (Specially Iranian Civilizations) had banned SLAVERY!!

and no you did not offend friend you just didnt know and it was your right! because not much knows too!

[TiagoJRToledo]

I use the term Iranian as a synonym to Aryan, as is commonplace in the academic community. Again, this shows how old-fashioned and backwards your train of thought is, because today, and due to intensive research on the matter, the term Aryan has fallen out of use and replaced with the term "Indo-Iranian".

and friend i told you Iranians are not PERSIANS that is a nasty false!! and then i said We are Iranian Race (or Aryan) NOT PERSIAN!! consider difference between them. and of course before Aryans too in scattered regions it was great civilizations date backs to more than 7000 years!

Not all Iranians are Persians, but all Persians are Iranians.
You seem to fail to grasp that your nationalistic view on what is Kurdish and what is not is very old-fashioned, and not really acceptable from an academic standpoint.

the sad matter fact is that no really research has been done by archeologists except those Russians & Germans i said, and it was in a bad time (WWI - WW II) and plus, it did not go worldwide! thats the why that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations not only the world or even Persians, but even ourselves!!

There has been plenty of research on the Iranian Plateau and Mesopotamia, and the reason that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations is, to put it bluntly, because there were none. Kurds were a tribe of Iranian descent, and at any point in History did they develop a centralized state or subjugated other peoples.

and no again i didnt tell that that picture 100% is from Kurdish Median or not median kingdoms!! i said might!

So, in your line of reasoning, it is fair to say that the skeletons might even be Arabic, since there is as much evidence to support that claim as there is to support them being Kurds?

actually The One Word KURD now has came from many paople that time :
Sumerians - Pre Elamies - Guties - Mitannies - Mannaeans - Hurrians (http://glosbe.com/en/en/Hurrians) - Karda - Kurdo - Lullubians - Elamies (or Ilam now) (These 1500 BC and Older) - Medya (Media) - Karduchians (Kardochians by Xenophon's) - (1000 BC until Sassanids)

You list a load of cultures, and say that the word Kurd applies to all of them? If so, that is laughable. Or are trying to say that all those cultures mention Kurds at one point? Because that would also be incorrect, since I've already stated that Kurds, as an ethnic group, only appear clearly mentioned for the first time in the 11th century A.D. Before this, the term Kurd, during this time period, most likely was a social term, designating Iranian nomads, rather than a concrete ethnic group. Source: J. Limbert. (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1.2: pp. 41-51. ; G. Asatrian. (2009). Prolegemona to the Study of Kurds. Iran and the Caucasus, 13.1: pp. 1-58

Kurdish Language Is The Most Wealthiest & Richest Languages in in a row of Indian Languages & Dialects !!

If this is not nationalistic rhetoric, then nothing his.

look at views! if i would wrote "the most Old HELLENIC or ROMAN Lovers huge views would be seen!! you see the westerns only care for Hellenics & Romans! that they back 500 BC to 500 AD! but Ancient Eastern & Near Eastern & Mesopotamian Civilizations back 6000-7000 to BC 700 AD (until Islam) with more wealthier and more humanitarian civilizations and even some of them (Specially Iranian Civilizations) had banned SLAVERY!!

It is true that Western Literature focuses on Hellenes and Romans, but that is due to this cultures forming the basis of our modern societies. It is not from spiteful bigotry, it's just because it's more closer to heart.
And for your information, Latin culture goes back to even 900 B.C, to the Villanovan culture, and Hellenic culture traces back to c. 3700 B.C to the Minoan Culture, so that argument of yours is as untrue as is invalid.

The rest of your comments are, again, nationalist rhetoric, and do not merit a response from my part.

[Empire*Of*Media]

your researches are only from English & Persian to English sources. well its like that Pahlawi/Pahlavi Language that it never was linked to Persian even Parthians were not Persians but in sources by them it is Pahlavi Persian! what a joke.
i told you they are not trusted because they have never even visited Kurdistan! like Valdimir Minorsky & Gunther Deschner & David Mackenzie.

But it seems you only want to DENY not discussion! and bring me what The Pan-Fars People like to suppress us as like as Pan-Turkism & pan-Arabism too! ok we are just a wild tribe and we suddenly were created instantly in 12th Century and we were created by Persians! then Turks and Arabs!! and we are some have some bunch of accents of Persians & Turks & Arabs and not an independent Ancient Language!!!!

and by you and those that like your view it is Acceptable that Kurds were Genocided like These :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_genocide
http://www.kurdishgenocide.com/index.html
http://uk.krg.org/genocide/pages/pag...ngnr=12&pnr=37

because we are just Tribes bothering our neighbours we must be cleansed from the earth......the jews?! oh no no one can say anything about them since the WWII !! if we be Genocide does not matter! who gives a *** but them even if you criticize them you will be jailed and fined !!

if im ultranationalist by your view, so i see you supporting Racism & Imperialism. thats all i will say.
Thanks

[TiagoJRToledo]

your researches are only from English & Persian to English sources. well its like that Pahlawi/Pahlavi Language that it never was linked to Persian even Parthians were not Persians but in sources by them it is Pahlavi Persian! what a joke.
i told you they are not trusted because they have never even visited Kurdistan! like Valdimir Minorsky & Gunther Deschner & David Mackenzie.

But it seems you only want to DENY not discussion! and bring me what The Pan-Fars People like to suppress us as like as Pan-Turkism & pan-Arabism too! ok we are just a wild tribe and we suddenly were created instantly in 12th Century and we were created by Persians! then Turks and Arabs!! and we are some have some bunch of accents of Persians & Turks & Arabs and not an independent Ancient Language!!!!

and by you and those that like your view it is Acceptable that Kurds were Genocided like These :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_genocide
http://www.kurdishgenocide.com/index.html
http://uk.krg.org/genocide/pages/pag...ngnr=12&pnr=37

because we are just Tribes bothering our neighbours we must be cleansed from the earth......the jews?! oh no no one can say anything about them since the WWII !! if we be Genocide does not matter! who gives a *** but them even if you criticize them you will be jailed and fined !!

if im ultranationalist by your view, so i see you supporting Racism & Imperialism. thats all i will say.
Thanks

Purposefully misinterpreting arguments does not foster discussion and debate. Take a moment to re-read my posts (and if you're at it, re-read yours too), and you will grasp why I will not engage you further.

[Empire*Of*Media]

so who was it when humbled us and said all the modern 45 Million Kurds were some bunch of IranianTRIBEfrom Persians?! Tribe?!! lol

second, i never denied we were Iranians, i said you are wrong we are PERSIANS! we Kurds were Iranians, but we were/are never Persians! and before them we were civilized the proof if it is not before medes by your say, then it is the medes themselves! median civilization's greatness in an equal time in hellenic civilization. but you grasped your mistake and changed it to "iranian" matter so your mistake be covered. so dont repeat IRANIAN KURDS again as i said we were Iranians and again not Persian!

it seems you've been addressed by Persians or Pro Persians !

[Empire*Of*Media]

by the way........what do you mean after all?!
you mean we call ourselves The Humbles for Persians and remain in Persian Ultimate Fascism and have borders in our cities to the Turks & Arabs ?! do you really support this?!!

well i hope your not Pro Turk or Pro Arab too!!

[Hax]

Interestingly, the term ’arab used to be applied to different kinds of nomad groups roaming the Middle-East, including the Turkic tribes that entered Greater Iran in the 11th century.

What you have to realise is that these terms like "Arab", "Turk", or "Kurd" were not terms that people or groups of people applied to themselves, but were labels given to them by other people.

[Empire*Of*Media]

dear TiagoJRToledo
brother, friend, i am so so sorry if i have Offended you. believe me it was not because to suppress you thoughts.

its the right of any nation to defend its history but logically of course
our nations unknown in history is because we're suppressed and repressed we could not even speak our language in our homes (such as North Kurdistan-Kurdistan of Turkey & West-Kurdistan of Syria-and the other parts were Arabized or Persianized) so how can any of us do something in that situation?! you said we were only from 20th century! so that doesnt make sense its like to say before the moors you never existed!! you were from French & Spanish!! yo pay attention to your nationality or not, but any nation must be respected if they are not to oofense and hat and desrtoy like Arabs & Turks!

Vladimir Minorsky - David Mackenzie lived among the kurds and read the Persian & Azeri sources and compared and researched it with kurds history. that is acceptable!! not the Persian Sources or English Sources for the persian interests!!
someone like Gunther Deschner a german left his world to live among the kurds for 31 years!! only to know what was wrong with these nation without State!!! so he that who his words its not from Nationalistic favors or any kind of enthusiasm or Zeal or siding anyone, with years of Researches and live among the people itself and Contact with them is Right and Trusted or someone wants to deny the existance of them or just read or researched very limit of that region's matters?!

so i hope you dont think i've offended you by hated or ignorant!

just couldnt say anything against the False matters.......

Accept my Respect............

[Empire*Of*Media]

Interestingly, the term ’arab used to be applied to different kinds of nomad groups roaming the Middle-East, including the Turkic tribes that entered Greater Iran in the 11th century.

What you have to realise is that these terms like "Arab", "Turk", or "Kurd" were not terms that people or groups of people applied to themselves, but were labels given to them by other people.

yes indeed thank you.
Arab yes too, Turkish maybe, as long most of them were from steppes of Mongolia (Oghur-Oyghur) & Tataria Originally, but who named that?
i agree on that, the word "Kurd" is a Term given by the Arab Muslim's Army of Omar The Khalifa.
but you know, they named them "Kurd" because those Cultures & Languages & Peoples with similar Customs, were very very much closer than even Persians or Armenians, so the Arabs Decided to name them as they Arabized the word "Karduk - Karduchia - Korduene (Corduene) that were parts of Rome & Sassanids. so thats why, its not because that they were 100% Nomad or there was no difference between the word "Turk -Arab -Lur" !