The threat on Archeology in Syria, Ukraine, and Elsewhere.

[RAWROMNOM]

This is a topic I think deserves discussion and attention. Underneath all the regrettable politics, many sites of historical importance are currently threatened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Arab_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_in_Ukraine

Many more sites are out there, not yet considered WHS, or were built over, but their structures and artifacts still exist underneath occupied buildings destroyed by barrel bombs and rockets.

[TiagoJRToledo]

It is really a major problem, not only during the ongoing conflicts, but even after their resolution. Look at Libya: there are tons of research to be made on archaeological sites, but even after the conflicts the instability within the country prevents the advancement of vital research.

Unfortunately, we will have to wait a couple of decades after the conflicts are over, and pray that the government that sticks allows research protocols.

[moonburn]

if thats the only problem i would lol the afhegan budhas many city´s in iran and all over the arab world have been destroyed or somehow vandalised for profit or religious motives just like the penises on the egiptian tumbs where carved out by their victorian discoverers

when you see images of egyptian murals and some small parts are missing thats not time it´s puritanism hammer and chisel

how many monuments and or works of art are now underwater to allow for the building of damms and nobady ever heard about

one practice that seems common amongst civil constructors and civil engineers around southern europe and some magrebine countries is if they discover some artifact keep it hidden ignore it or only show the artifacts after the work is done particular when it´s being done in central towns squares i got some whispers about such stuff happening in italy greece portugal spain tunisia and marrocco from the damm builders themselfs "explaining" how things really are out there in the real world where politicians and bussinessman only care about the euro and the deadline

ofc in their defence some measures and laws are just murder on their companies since they don´t get compensation to pay their workers while the works are suspended sometimes for years due to burocracy

[kdrakak]

This is a topic I think deserves discussion and attention. Underneath all the regrettable politics, many sites of historical importance are currently threatened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Arab_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_in_Ukraine

Many more sites are out there, not yet considered WHS, or were built over, but their structures and artifacts still exist underneath occupied buildings destroyed by barrel bombs and rockets.

I do not think Ukraine is threatened at this time. Maneuvering aside... Perhaps there is a different picture being painted in Northern Illinois
Can't help, but remember the eve of attack on Iraq. British commanding officer gave a speech about treading lightly. An American officer felt more content saying: "When the president says go, it's hammer time"
My point being about painting different pictures of the same issue...
I am sure our esteemed RAWROMNOM can see through the various shades perhaps more so than I who posted this. I hope I am not misunderstood.

[Thaatu]

Since all the treasure hunting metal detector shows became popular, archaeological sites world wide seem to be in danger, not just in war zones. Officials are very reluctant to act on these developments, whether products of peace or war, because the value of archaeology is not, in my view, adequately established.

[TiagoJRToledo]

Since all the treasure hunting metal detector shows became popular, archaeological sites world wide seem to be in danger, not just in war zones. Officials are very reluctant to act on these developments, whether products of peace or war, because the value of archaeology is not, in my view, adequately established.

Very true. Only in some restrict countries is Archaeology a valued and treasured academic and socio-cultural tool, and has appropriate legislation protecting it. The widespread and unregulated use of metal detectors only aggravates the issue.

[Ibrahim]

Very true. Only in some restrict countries is Archaeology a valued and treasured academic and socio-cultural tool, and has appropriate legislation protecting it. The widespread and unregulated use of metal detectors only aggravates the issue.

and even then, the looting continues as if the laws never existed, and if anything has become more pernicious and "vicious". And frankly, metal detectors have little to do with it: this is particularly the case where the looting is at its worst (3rd world countries).

the same problem exists in paleontology, and the reason is the same: fossils and artifacts = $$$. Not metal detectors, not geologic maps, but cold hard money. You can't change that, I can't, and government definitely can't--they're invariably the most inept at their jobs.

[RAWROMNOM]

I do not think Ukraine is threatened at this time. Maneuvering aside... Perhaps there is a different picture being painted in Northern Illinois
Can't help, but remember the eve of attack on Iraq. British commanding officer gave a speech about treading lightly. An American officer felt more content saying: "When the president says go, it's hammer time"
My point being about painting different pictures of the same issue...
I am sure our esteemed RAWROMNOM can see through the various shades perhaps more so than I who posted this. I hope I am not misunderstood.

No worries. :3

A majority of family, friends, and acquaintances (civilians and servicemen/women) here in the States have openly expressed worry and/or excitement (yeah, I know.), that the Crimean crisis/a Ukrainian civil war, will draw NATO into conflict with Russia; which would involve us due to treaty requirements. "WW3" has been mentioned more than a few times.

I have no idea what the future holds. And I sure as hell hope everyone settles down. Until the protests (which have lead to the destruction of property), sabre-rattling, and aggressive movements of men and military assets stop; in my opinion, the sites still stand under hopefully empty threats.

[kdrakak]

No worries. :3

A majority of family, friends, and acquaintances (civilians and servicemen/women) here in the States have openly expressed worry and/or excitement (yeah, I know.), that the Crimean crisis/a Ukrainian civil war, will draw NATO into conflict with Russia; which would involve us due to treaty requirements. "WW3" has been mentioned more than a few times.

I have no idea what the future holds. And I sure as hell hope everyone settles down. Until the protests (which have lead to the destruction of property), sabre-rattling, and aggressive movements of men and military assets stop; in my opinion, the sites still stand under hopefully empty threats.

Very glad you did not take offense. I was a bit worried but could hardly hold my... well... typing. This forum is about history right? So, historically Ukraine has been mostly in the Russian/Soviet sphere of influence even though in many ways it was the one of the incubators for the force that was later based in Moscow. I am referring to the Kievan Rus, Novgorod being the other one. Only in times of Russian weakness did external influence reach past Dnieper. Other historical facts are that Russia needs its base in Crimea and access to Mediterranean via the Black Sea. It will fight for it and it has displayed that imperative numerous times in the past versus Ottoman and English overtures. Furthermore Crimea was "given" under Ukranian jurisdiction in the Soviet era (1954) by Nikita Khrushchev, but is otherwise been populated by a majority of ethnic Russians even before that time. Another fact is the US just barely retains its interest in the wider region looking instead to disengage for its pivot to the Pacific. Another fact is that Ukrainian GDP is mostly based in the eastern part of the country, that is much closer to Russia than Europe. Another fun fact is that the Ukrainian west will see the fun part of countries aspiring to join the west i.e. the IMF, and without EU "protection" at that, or the relative wealth of the eastern part. It may not be very long before even western Ukraine sees a different picture and decides to turn to Russia. Another fun fact is that Yanukovych was democratically elected in a process that received very little scrutiny from the West and that was little more than a year ago. Another fun fact is having an American diplomatic phone call leak that was not denied and featured the phrase "F@ck the EU" with respect to the Ukrainian matter, implying that the US will proceed with its plan regardless of EU involvement. Another fun fact is an Estonian (I think) official therefore not automatically pro Russian (probably the opposite), remarking that in all probability, snipers were not on Yanukovych's side, especially since he had little to gain from such escalation. These are facts...

Bottom line: What follows is only my opinion, but here it goes: It is a diplomatic game being played where unfortunately people died. Russia had a few perceived diplomatic victories lately and US diplomacy had to push back. Ukraine was an easy target to show that trouble can be remotely created in the Russian front yard. That fact notwithstanding the Russians are the only ones willing to put on a serious display of force in the arena, because they are the only ones who actually can - a conclusion all too familiar from the 2008 Georgian War; NATO and EU guarantees in Russian periphery meaning very little... a point driven home very clearly for all countries involved.
So sad as the situation is, I think there will be no shower of high explosive or bunker penetrating bombs to damage archaeological sites in Ukraine... thankfully.

[RAWROMNOM]

Very glad you did not take offense. I was a bit worried but could hardly hold my... well... typing.

Please by all means feel free to post your opinions and humour without fear! The team has an excellent sense of humour itself and is very open minded! Just watch the use of uncensored expletives, as a broader forum rule.

[kdrakak]

Turns out I was wrong about Ukraine. There are plenty of artillery shells and bombs flying back and forth. I thought no one was actually going to go to open war for it. I frequently underestimate the readiness with which people will kill each other even within the same country. Even when both sides claim the same nationality... more or less...

[I_damian]

Turns out I was wrong about Ukraine. There are plenty of artillery shells and bombs flying back and forth. I thought no one was actually going to go to open war for it. I frequently underestimate the readiness with which people will kill each other even within the same country. Even when both sides claim the same nationality... more or less...

How can you underestimate people's readiness to start killing each other? It's what humans do. Since before history even began to be recorded we've been sticking sharp things in each other. We love it. No matter how horrific war is and no matter what horrible things take place during war, people still love it and want more. It's just part of our nature. We love killing each other. Even peaceful, pacifist people like myself sometimes fantasize about being a soldier or leading an army. That's why I play EB and other strategy games - I like the idea of war. So do you because you play it/them as well.

Even after having unrestricted and unsupervised access to the internet since age 11, for the last 14 or 15 years, and seeing the horrors of war on websites like Ogrish and Liveleak such as beheadings, executions, women and children blown apart and splattered all over the road, it's still impossible to deny that 10,000 guys launching bullets and bombs at each other is... kinda cool.

So hurry up with my EB2 damnit! I will enslave ALL the barbarians!

[kdrakak]

How can you underestimate people's readiness to start killing each other? It's what humans do. Since before history even began to be recorded we've been sticking sharp things in each other. We love it. No matter how horrific war is and no matter what horrible things take place during war, people still love it and want more. It's just part of our nature. We love killing each other. Even peaceful, pacifist people like myself sometimes fantasize about being a soldier or leading an army. That's why I play EB and other strategy games - I like the idea of war. So do you because you play it/them as well.

Even after having unrestricted and unsupervised access to the internet since age 11, for the last 14 or 15 years, and seeing the horrors of war on websites like Ogrish and Liveleak such as beheadings, executions, women and children blown apart and splattered all over the road, it's still impossible to deny that 10,000 guys launching bullets and bombs at each other is... kinda cool.

So hurry up with my EB2 damnit! I will enslave ALL the barbarians!

I guess maybe I am hoping for more of a build-up before the massive killing begins... or a reason that makes more sense to me... A "Sorry we've tried everything and it didn't work so now I have to start killing you and yours"-type of approach. I don't know...

[Skald]

Its madness and I fear that this could escalate into a wider conflict once the spark is ignited.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Hopefully it will end in a compromise.

The West should propose a treaty with Russia that recognises the Crimea as part of Russia, in exchange for Russia guaranteeing the borders of the rest of Ukraine. The treaty should also expressly prohibit further NATO or EU expansion into the former USSR - meaning that Ukraine (and Belarus) can never join NATO or the EU, in return for Russia being expressly and publicly prohibited from any kind of military, political or economic intervention in favour of Russian ethnic minorities in other countries.

That way everyone gets some of what they want. Russia gets Crimea and an end to NATO/EU expansion toward Russia, Ukraine gets Donetsk and Luhansk back as the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine will collapse without Russian support, and the West gets a treaty protecting the Baltic states with Russian minorities, thus avoiding a conflict between Russia and NATO.

The Russian minorities may not like it, as they will feel Russia has abandoned them, but if they don't, they should emigrate to Russia.

[tobymoby]

Hopefully it will end in a compromise.

The West should propose a treaty with Russia that recognises the Crimea as part of Russia, in exchange for Russia guaranteeing the borders of the rest of Ukraine. The treaty should also expressly prohibit further NATO or EU expansion into the former USSR - meaning that Ukraine (and Belarus) can never join NATO or the EU, in return for Russia being expressly and publicly prohibited from any kind of military, political or economic intervention in favour of Russian ethnic minorities in other countries.

That way everyone gets some of what they want. Russia gets Crimea and an end to NATO/EU expansion toward Russia, Ukraine gets Donetsk and Luhansk back as the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine will collapse without Russian support, and the West gets a treaty protecting the Baltic states with Russian minorities, thus avoiding a conflict between Russia and NATO.

The Russian minorities may not like it, as they will feel Russia has abandoned them, but if they don't, they should emigrate to Russia.

Russia will never accept such a thing. It is in their interest to destabilize Ukraine. While outright annexation is unlikely, Putin would undoubtedly like to have the country. Further, it is in the interest of the West to keep Russia under wraps, hence more-or-less friendly relationships with former soviet republics.

[Brennus]

Gentlemen, as one of the moderators of this forum I must insist the topic returns to the original purpose of this thread: discussing the threat posed to cultural heritage in conflict zones. Discussions of politics, diplomacy and warfare should be conducted in the Backroom where there is a wealth of discussion on these issues.

Thank you for frequenting the EBII forum though.