"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
I think the company is within it's rights, but it's not the best move. He was a co-founder of Mozilla, for crying out loud. Are they going to get a better CEO out of this, or a more PC one?
And re: their culture of openness - is it really openness if they don't allow people who go against the current progressive agenda? That's not openness, it's a culture of required progressive beliefs. Of course that doesn't really sound inclusive.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
What you're suggesting is not openness, but nihilism.
Isn't there a difference?
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Some other views;
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/...-brendan-eich/
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...ype=blogs&_r=0Originally Posted by Andrew Sullivan
But it’s a mistake to draw any such conclusions in this case, for one simple reason: Mozilla is not a normal company. It is an activist organization. Mozilla’s primary mission isn’t to make money but to spread open-source code across the globe in the eventual hope of promoting “the development of the Internet as a public resource.”
As such, Mozilla operates according to a different calculus from most of the rest of corporate America.
Like all software companies, Mozilla competes in two markets. First, obviously, it wants people to use its products instead of its rivals’ stuff. But its second market is arguably more challenging — the tight labor pool of engineers, designers, and other tech workers who make software.
When you consider the importance of that market, Mr. Eich’s position on gay marriage wasn’t some outré personal stance unrelated to his job; it was a potentially hazardous bit of negative branding in the labor pool, one that was making life difficult for current employees and plausibly reducing Mozilla’s draw to prospective workers.
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Are you on purpose trying to sound so dense?
Let me explain it to you with an example: I consider Spike Lee to be an f*ing racist. He really doesn't like us honkeys. He also happens to be a pretty decent movie director. Will I boycott his movies just because I consider him a racist? Of course not, as that would be retarded. His racism is his personal business and has no bearing on the quality of his movies.
Same deal with, say, Mel Gibson. The guy is nuts, but he's an excellent actor and director. Would I boycott him? Hell no.
Tom Cruise. Another crazycakes, yet another brilliant actor. I consider his personal views to be nothing short of idiotic, but that wouldn't prevent me from watching his movies.
Get it now?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
This is the free market guys. CEO's are the public face of their organizations, which is only amplified in Silicon Valley, where the visionary leader model is often employed. This otherwise brilliant CEO just happened to have been found to be a supporter of what was essentially a hate group, and the market reacted.
Let's not forget what this man ponied up $1,000 to support. There are principled, respectful arguments that can be made against gay marriage. Prop 8 supporters did not choose that path. I don't really blame anyone for holding a grudge after being labeled a threat to children and society.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-06-2014 at 06:01.
You can’t say a hate group. How could you know? Everyone was divided.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...n_8_%282008%29
So, it was for the children. Hillary taught everyone that.
We can’t possibly know what he thought when he gave the money but as it was a divisive issue I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If blame needs to be placed, it belongs on the side of militant gays or more specifically OKCupit’s dating site.
From there is was bowing to a pressure group for the good of the establishment, and one they really had no hope of winning.
It was foolish to think that this was the safer course.
Tolerance is a two way street. Those who would have it also need to demonstrate it.
Otherwise it is only hypocrisy.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Viable racism should be tolerated. Not the type that says that individual people are bad because of the color of their skin, but that cultures can be bad and that different social policies are needed to usher some people out of locally imposed dark ages.
People should be able to say what they'd like. When it comes to your job, though you just have to think hard about doing and saying what you'd like as different PC fads come and go and could cost you money.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 04-06-2014 at 11:33.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
The whole campaign on prop 8 seemed about teaching kids about gay marriage. While it may not be a big deal to you now it was more controversial 6 or 7 years ago.
It is not unreasonable to assume that many who voted for prop 8 didn’t care about gay marriage but did care about taking it to the classroom.
Calling it bigotry is only showing your own intolerance. Intolerance breeds more of the same. It is polarizing and divisive.
To lash out at someone who backed a political proposition you opposed six years ago is just mean spirited. It doesn’t show he was engaged in any hate mail campaigns or beating up gays on street corners.
A lot of people have changed their minds on the issue since. I don’t recall that being asked of him.
I am sure you have changed your mind on issues in the past. Yet here you seem to support a vendetta because someone once donated money that you disagree with.
I would not say there is anything mild about your intolerance.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
It specifically was.A lot of people have changed their minds on the issue since. I don’t recall that being asked of him.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
I believe Montmorency is right;
This is probably one of the only current US political issues where you can claim that opposition is intolerance. Does that mean he must be force to recant his views or not have a leadership position in the industry? It does seem easier to tolerate intolerance once you've won the issue.Throughout the interviews, it was not hard to get the sense that Eich really wanted to stick strongly by his views about gay marriage, which run counter to much of the tech industry and, increasingly, the general population in the U.S. For example, he repeatedly declined to answer when asked if he would donate to a similar initiative today.
Instead, he tried to unsuccessfully hedge those sentiments and, perhaps more importantly, did not seem to understand that he might have to pay the inevitable price for having them.
I think, in this specific example, it was a "militant" group going for his resignation.There's no militant gay problem causing this, its just a more tolerant generation coming of age that has different standards for what is acceptable. Just wait, it'll keep coming. I'm considered kind of mildly intolerant by many in my own generation, and I'm way to the social left of many of you.
Out of curiosity, what social group (ie are you calling Eugene liberals representative of your generation?) are you referencing? You seem pretty socially liberal, so I'm wondering why they would view you as intolerant.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
There is a lot of strong sentiment out there. Most of it stupid, illiberal, and regressive.
OKCupid were small and mean. The company should have engaged them and pointed it out. Instead other closed minds within took over and groupthink stupidity kicked into overdrive.
Big mistake. It certainly does NOT further gay rights or put them in a good light.
Meanwhile
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Not even Jesus turned the cheek to the extent that some in this thread would have liked to see from gay individuals...It certainly does NOT further gay rights or put them in a good light.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
There are always political opportunists. When hypocrisy rears its head everyone is eager to pile on.
That is partly the reason that this whole this is so damaging.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
One would have to be deliberately obtuse or wildly uniformed to think otherwise. The Prop 8 campaign completely ignored actually discussing marriage, instead choosing to explicitly label gay people a threat to children. As in all things, context is key; and while you seem content to completely ignore it, the scars from that incredibly degrading hate campaign are still fresh in the minds of most gay people only five years later.
So Eich was simply exercising his free speech, but gays are being 'militant' for doing the same? I'm not sure you are in a position to be lecturing on hypocrisy.If blame needs to be placed, it belongs on the side of militant gays
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-06-2014 at 19:39.
I read the link. It does not address the question. Brendan Eich does not like the idea of gay people marrying for whatever reason and put up money to support a campaign that was highly offensive to gay people. (Some) gay people, in turn, do not like the idea of someone who supported that campaign being placed in charge of Mozilla, and voiced their opposition to it. Why is the former simply exercising his free speech while the latter are militant?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Well, perhaps not militant, just stupid and short sighted.
It was not that he was a publicly outspoken critic. He has not expressed his views on the issue. It is surmised by his unwillingness to do so.
Someone had to go out of their way to discover the donation. Then they had to be incensed enough to speak out about it. All that would point to malice and an unwillingness to forgive or forget.
I find that small minded and mean.
It is not even that it is a seemingly gay issue. It would be the same for me were it about abortion rights, gun control or any other divisive political issue and whatever viewpoint the person held. I would think it unjust.
The fact that it is about a gay issue only points up the tolerance issue, and the double standard involved.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
But this isn't really about Firefox, is it? It is about promoting someone with Eich's views to the highest leadership position in a company that is supposedly built on inclusiveness. Under the right leadership, there are a thousand and one ways a company can discriminate against people without being caught. Eich essentially threw down money not just to oppose gay marriage, but to call gay people a danger to children... to degrade and attack them in the most cruel and vicious manner possible, and it is completely understandable that gay employees and contributors to Mozilla's products would be uncomfortable working under his leadership and voice their opinion.
To borrow GC's example, would it be out of bounds and 'militant' for black employees to speak out in opposition against the promotion to CEO of someone who had donated to the KKK five years prior?
So, a $1000 donation allowed him to steer the entire campaign? And all that in October. Amazing!
I am truly sorry. I know this is an issue you hold close but it doesn’t change things.
This was an over reaction on the part of those who brought the issue forward. The repercussions and backlash are not going to be good for the gay community at large or firefox. It was a little thought out knee jerk reaction that has backfired.
The best thing to do is for them to admit that mistake and move on. That is recognized in the members of the gay community speaking out against it.
Attempts to justify it are only going to make matter worse.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
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