Capitalism Doesn’t Work

[ICantSpellDawg]

We need to elect people who understand that there is a psychological component to all this, and that the morale of the people is the most precious resource a country has.

This is only important if the labor and productivity of people are important. If their labor and productivity have become unnecessary relics of the past, then so has the value of their morale or any interest in securing or protecting it or our lives.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Monetarily, perhaps. Its not that easy to do away with the poor, if they're backed into a corner. I don't think the situation is quite that dire, though--this recession is prolonged by bad ideology that takes trickle-down to an extreme. Bad economic policy is something we've internalized as a nation, at least in the middle-class. Things are bad, but fixable. IMO.

History has shown us that it is remarkably easy for powerful people to do away with people en-mass

[ICantSpellDawg]

Only when the middle-class is complicit.

Or when we refuse to punish the use of chemical weapons on civilian populations.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Syria is your example? The poor in Syria are still there. In fact, there's more of them than ever and those that aren't refugees are forced to pick sides in the fighting. Assad enjoys the support of the Alawite bourgeoisie, though.

The only modern example is Nazi Germany, and had the average middle-class German not been cowed into buying into the Nazis lies (and they often even knew it was lies), the removal of "undesirable elements" in that horrid nation might not have worked at all.

It is probably a better life for the impoverished to fight their government with arms than it is to toil under it in squalor.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So it seems, until you're 3 years into a civil war, and you're secular resistance has been co-opted by groups that would make life just as bad as any dictator, should you win. The Arab spring is a good lesson in why armchair revolution is stupid. What do you do when all the well-intentioned people are dead? You'll get weapons and support form whoever is available, and they will stab you in the back as soon as you let your guard down.

I feel like a lot of fighting Syrians are having the time of their miserable lives. The ones who preferred not to be in combat have mostly left, been killed, or are still living under Assad. We have failed miserably there because good people had no intention of lending assistance while horrible people were drawn to it like moths to a flame.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That's a hell of a presumption.

Maybe, but people adapt and I believe that most males secretly love combat in spite of themselves and how objectively terrible it is. Males in nearly every species are almost as weird as females.

[Strike For The South]

Maybe, but people adapt and I believe that most males secretly love combat in spite of themselves and how objectively terrible it is. Males in nearly every species are almost as weird as females.

LOL says someone who has probably never even been as much as a fistfight.

EVERYONE IS SECRETLY FIGHT CLUB

[ICantSpellDawg]

Most people enjoy adrenaline packed situations that allow them to live purely in the moment, but only from a distance and in part. I highly doubt the fighters in Syria, starving in bombed out basements and desert hideouts, forced to play nice with groups like ISIS, having not seen their family nor any semblance of civilian life since the war broke out, wondering if western aid (should it ever come) would include bombing them as well as Assad, living in their own filth because the sewage doesn't work and rivers of shit flow down the streets (Iraq had this problem too, still does in many urban areas), wondering if the next barrel bomb is the one.. well I'm sure they're not having a good time at all. To be sure, they're accumulating war stories, and those can be fun to tell, but unlike American soldiers who get to go off to foreign countries and experience war on their land, these dudes are fighting among the wreckage of their own homes, often against people they used to get along with to some degree. I wouldn't envy them at all, no matter how much of a freedom-boner you have.

People have lived horribly for hundreds of thousands of years, but they keep thinking that it is a good idea to do it. Clearly our position is dramatically better, but still - I'm the one trying to assist them in overthrowing their government using the resources of ours. It has been a very upsetting failure to convince the American public and its leaders that we should be helping certain groups in Syria. It is one of the few things that Federal funds should go towards. Killing and overthrowing abusive governments. It is what the government is best at. Occupation? Not so much.

One of my least favorite things about the war in Iraq is that the government lied or misled people on WMD's. It has made it so much harder to convince people to go to war since then, which is what we are best at and what certain populations could use the most. Can you make an argument that people would be worse off in Syria if we had intervened when we first had casus belli?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Or... instead of giving that money to the companies that make the bombs, supply the planes with fuel, the international groups that distribute the aid, and so forth... we could spend that money at home. Making the impoverished a little less miserable.

Why does the middle class have such compassion for the rest of the world, and such disdain for the American poor? Is it because you don't want to acknowledge that it could be you on the street, but for circumstance? We have far more power to help the poor and fix our conditions in America than we ever will to socially engineer foreign countries.

I don't believe in American poor. They are a dead weight. It is as simple as that. It believe in international poor, because they haven't been presented with as many opportunities and small amounts of money makes a monumental difference.

Beyond skepticism that they even exist, relative to those in poverty throughout the world - their cause is less through lack of opportunity and more through failure to make good choices and/or mental retardation. International poor are poor because of geography, disease and circumstance.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So you're on a diet of 100% bullshit then?

*Skepticism that they exist? Holy shit, we're done here. Come to Oregon some time, I'll show you fucking poor.

Where do they live? I look for them and cannot see them. If you are talking about homeless people who refuse to go to a shelter, take a bath or wear presentable clothing that is offered to them for free, then it proves my point. How much does a toothbrush cost? brush your damn teeth in the water that forms on leaves for Christ's sake.

[ICantSpellDawg]

We unload huge amounts of money on affordable housing, welfare payments, free emergency care, police response. It is wholly different from the Central African Republic. 91% of adults in the US own cellphones. You cannot cure stupid no matter how sorry you feel for it, and evidently no matter how much money or legislative policy you throw at it.

I despise the American poor. I can't help it. I feel nothing but sorrow and eagerness to help the poor around the globe.

You asked, didn't you?

Why does the middle class have such compassion for the rest of the world, and such disdain for the American poor?

[Strike For The South]

So people love war and the poor are a dead weight?

I think I hear mum calling you for supper.

And the worst part is I know you're doing this to get peoples goat

[ICantSpellDawg]

That's fucking ignorant man. You give a homeless man in America $5 and he can eat one decent meal, if he's lucky. He sure can't afford rent. I'm not going to debate the existance of the poor in America with you, just so your delusions can be humored.

What does "poor" mean to you? Can you explain it?

It seems like everyone you meet came from "such poor beginnings" Horsecrap. Poverty means bathing in a sewer and working 7 days a week, 16 hour days just to buy white rice and die young. No education, no healthcare if you are dying in the street. The poor in NY have cellphones and cable tv and can sit in air conditioned subway cars.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Orphans in the US today are afforded healthcare and free education until they are 18. People with not 1 person who cares about them.

Listen, if someone is mentally retarded, we should help them because they, through no failure of their own, are unable to keep up.

[Greyblades]

Yes, because at age 18 people's problems magically dissapear.

And the worst part is I know you're doing this to get peoples goat

Considering that there are 4 year olds with less ignorant views of the world, I am inclined to agree.

[ICantSpellDawg]

And the worst part is I know you're doing this to get peoples goat

eh, maybe.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ya whatever, I'm done with your garbage. Even totally impoverished Lakota's on Pine Ridge Reservation, where Radon comes out of everyone's basement and the life expectancy is 53, have satellite TV. In America, the poor have trinkets and that's it. How is a homeless guy supposed to get an apartment when he has no rental history? How does he get a job without a place of residence? How does he get a car without credit? If you're off the grid for so much as a year in today's economy, you might as well check into your local prison and never leave. I know you're trolling and I'm still disgusted.

Well, when you have to resort to American Natives to prove the existence of poverty in the US... Listen, that is an example of an ongoing abuse that is beyond the power of an individual. I empathise. Likewise, odds which are nearly insurmountable to even intelligent and hardworking individuals need to be remedied. My argument is against those who actively contribute to their own miserable lives. I have contempt for them.

Hey, I'm never running for office, why shouldn't I say what I feel. I don't totally lack compassion, I just reserve it for those who will use it to objective benefit. American poor generally fail that test.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You have contempt for something that doesn't exist, and you have absolutely no understanding of what the daily life of a truly impoverished American is like. I bring up the reservation because I lived there for a few years when I was younger, and it was quite possibly the most impoverished place I've ever lived in America or elsewhere. In fact, a lot of the guys I know who tried to escape that place are now homeless in cities across America, or in jail, or dead from Suicide (the leading cause of death on Pine Ridge reservation).

Hey listen, if you can make an argument that something in the system encourages the despicable nature of people, chances are I'm with you for reforming it. I dont want to punish these contemptible people, I just don't want to be dragged into their downward spiral. You'd probably find that if I really believed that someone could use my help I would drop more than most to help them, selflessly even.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The only reason you don't support measures that actually would help (spending money on the poor) is because of your bigoted belief system. Don't twist it like there aren't good solutions out there.

This is one of the reasons that I don't come down hard on Immigrants. They are doing something to better their situations in life. Would I prefer that they put enough grit into it to reform their own systems? Absolutely, but constructive growth by the bushel and constructive growth by the basket isn't drug addiction and violent crime. Would I have the tenacity to stay and fix if it were me? I would bet on no

[ICantSpellDawg]

Again, you know so much about the motivations of poor people from your comfy chair! You make such generalizations, with so little knowledge! I really hope you come visit Oregon some time. One less ignorant in the world makes us all better off, even if I have to drop you off in the middle of a homeless shelter, throw a bunch of alcohol on your clothes, and run away with your ID so you can get beat by the cops and thrown in jail for being a no-good stinky alcoholic hobo with an out-of-town accent.

I kid, I kid. I think you'd get the idea from a simple walk-around. What amazes me is that you will probably never take it upon yourself to visit the local poor in your own area, or to understand them at all.

It's fun to argue with you. Eh, I've tried to feed homeless vets at the VA and used to give 40 bucks a month to Catholic Relief Services (I should update my credit card info because I believe in their mission) for years.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The one thing about political trolling is that your laughs is at the expense of your dignity. Getting a rise out of someone by calling poor people dead weight is worse than actually believing it, blind ideology is understandable but doing it for entertainment purposes makes me pity you and your state of mind.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Blah blah blah. I almost fell asleep reading that. Stop taking things so seriously.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Blah blah blah. I almost fell asleep reading that. Stop taking things so seriously.

I can't, I actually care about people that are poor.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Give me a break and go marry one of them already. I like the international poor better. They are just normal people in crappy circumstances. American poor are like morbidly obese people (whom I also just cannot with) - they made themselves that way through addiction, bad lifestyle choices, with a bit of mental illness sprinkled on top. You focus on the ones you feel empathy for, I'll focus on the ones that I feel empathy for.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Beh. I have respect for international poor generally and view their situation as mostly external circumstance. I see myself in them.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Surely you understand the idea of a right-wing middle-class American whose definition of "caring" about the international poor includes lots of armed intervention, on top of your stated beliefs regarding the poor, makes you a rather impressive caricature? You should consider a Colbert-esque career path.

I know that it makes you feel good to say nice things. I cede the good guy argument to you. I don't care about being a good guy on the internet, this is just a really intense description of how I often feel about people who frustrate me, ie: fat people, self perpetuated poor, drug addicts.

I have a tiny, icy heart and a save space in it for people who aren't intentionally wretched. Hey, sometimes my emotion gets the better of me and I give them some money, but you know, we all have our weaknesses.

The important thing to note is that they are still technically human beings and I would never support a policy that made their lives worse, unless it retracted the endless handout arm of other peoples money to negligible social benefit. There are plenty of people who would love to personally support them, like yourself and acin. Spend the money on increasing the quality of education to their kids, encouraging their professional development, etc

[ICantSpellDawg]

That's fine, there's no point in blunting your opinions. I actually think overall in this thread i've been more vitriolic than you, so I don't think anyone is making a claim that you're being politically incorrect or whatever. If those are your beliefs, then I think you're a fascist. Not even the kind of fascist that has fun with it either, but the sort of useful idiot who toils away for his master as long as his diet for reactionary sentiment and a good witch hunt is satisfied. America is not so much more advanced than the rest of the world, you know. We're not Africa or anything, but the totally indigent in America are worse off than most of the industrialized world. The working poor are worse off than most of the western world. To be poor in America means having less in a country where everything costs far more. And people like you keep it going.

But whether you're serious, or joking, or just don't give a shit, its all the same to me. This is the Backroom, and I'm happy to have a discussion with you no matter how much you offend me. Which really isn't that much. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink.

How am I making it worse? What have you proposed that would elevate them from their condition. You are just giving a dying man morphine in an attempt at charity. Only they aren't mortally wounded, they are just con artists who care more about getting you to keep giving them the needle than they care about their own dignity.

I don't think it is inappropriate in this thread for you to propose your idea of a good policy and see if I oppose it. I would like to legalize nearly all drugs. I believe that our policies harm these ner'do-wells and would prefer not to duplicate the severity with which they destroy their own lives. I believe in funding organizations that assist the mentally Ill to lead productive & fulfilling lives. I believe in technologically advanced educational standards for impoverished children and high quality preventative healthcare for them. In real work training programs as a requirement for handouts. Nothing would make me happier than to see no more filthy bums on the street and gypsies stealing from people. Even the worst people would love nothing more than for these wretches to reform themselves and stop dragging us down with them.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Well, according to some pretty well-understood economics, increasing the minimum wage would have huge benefits. There's a whole school of economics founded on the idea that giving the poor more purchasing power, and bringing them up to the middle class, has benefits to society as a whole. Whether or not you agree with that has more to do with whether or not you think that's a viable economic strategy than anything else. Note that it's a short-term strategy, but our economy is like a severed limb--you must stop the bleeding.

However, I'm not an economics major, I'm a political science and sociology major. The most vulnerable in society do not have the benefit of looking at long-term solutions. There is a critical period in every person's life where they either find their place in society, or decide they no longer have a place for it or in it. Our society is failing people who need it, because people like you believe shitty arguments put forth by people who just want to get the government out of the way so they can screw you better.

I am fine with raised minimum wages. I just dont think that it will do what you believe it will do. Minimum wage for people working 40 hours per week would be just under 22500 per year, way above the poverty line. But go ahead, I wouldn't vote for it, but I wouldn't vote against it. If anything, it would force an employer to really think whether the position was that necessary. If it was, then shame on him for not paying commensurate wages from the start. If it isn't, it will encourage the employer to fire the useless employee and instead automate the process. Win/Win longer term.

You can't make people more valuable by increasing the minimum wage, but you can make a crappy worker overpaid. Test away, just do it in your state first. I'm not opposed if my own Democratic State wanted to try. They won't, even though they control all branches of government here. They would much rather use it against Republicans than enact such a lukewarm policy that will drive jobs from the State. But I hate NY, so move all the jobs out so that we can get them in another State. Who needs a 350k starter house with average national salary for a college grad.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Well, you can't do it as long as companies are artificially restricting hours to avoid paying anyone a living wage, or benefits. But that's cartel-like behavior, and we should put people in jail for that.

So now you aren't talking about a minimum wage, you are talking about a minimum workday/workweek. People should be jailed for trying to maximize productivity and minimize unnecessary expenses? This is why everyone wants to shed workers and automate or outsource. Or should that be outlawed too?

What business owner can be bothered to deal with this crap?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Not explicitly. But definitely a clamp-down on labor-pool-manipulation that winds up costing everybody--the worker, the taxpayer, everybody except the major shareholders--a little bit of pie. The right to profit does not mean the right to subvert government, the right to restructure entire local economies behind closed doors, or the right to ignore--in spirit--the laws that are on the books. We wouldn't pass laws saying people should get paid a certain amount or that they are entitled to certain benefits if we wanted corporations to then find a way around those laws. This is a social justice issue, a consumer rights issue, and only then an economic issue. Though it is all three.

Listen, I understand that you want to defend people who work, I totally empathise with that and I am way less hostile to the idea that people should have dignity especially if they are putting real effort into to building a better life for themselves, but I hate forced action. I don't believe that it works to actualize those stated goals and I don't believe that it is ethical. You are trying to reinvent the wheel in a command economy. Those ideas worked for a little while and then failed. They worked when labor was needed, now employees have to force employers not to eliminate technologically redundant jobs. It doesn't make sense. All trends are to fire workers and you want to make employing them not only more unprofitable, but now irrevocable and micromanaged. It doesn't add up, we need new solutions.

Forced laboring doesn't work and isn't ethical, why would forced employing be?