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Thread: EU election...

  1. #31
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    BTW how is it possible to be 'waycist' towards fellows of the same ethnic group? I'd be fascinated to know.
    I could easily answer that by saying peoples definition of race is different based on where the concept of race they come from is manufactured. You have the American-esque 'White' and 'Blacks', where it is done purely on skin-colour. You have the European-School which Hitler was a fan-of which called Poles, Russians, etc, Sub-human Slavs. He also had the 'Aryan German Master-Race' which is different but related to the strong 'British Race'.

    But reality is, 'Racist' is common-speak for 'Xenophobic'

    Also, the definition of ethnic is: "relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition."
    Romanians are not in the same ethnic grouping according to this definition.
    Could be argued Welsh/Scottish/irish are different ethnic groupings too.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-31-2014 at 16:41.
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  2. #32
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    What's xenophobic about being realistic? Racists are perfectly catered by the BNP, who are admittingly mostly scum. But the UKIP has nothing to do with them, nor do they want to have anything to do with them. It's just not fair to link libertarians like the UKIP to those who have some questionable thoughts. You aren't going to convince anyone, there is nothing to win there, so it's just as futile as it is unfair.
    Last edited by Fragony; 06-01-2014 at 07:38.

  3. #33
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    The people of Britain have spoken and our political life will now have to be conducted on quite different terms, right? Wrong. Here’s another statement that seems to have passed for a truism over the past week which is equally wrong: large swathes of the populations of Europe have shouted a warning to their governments, and thus shaken the confidence of the whole European Union edifice. And another: national leaders in most of the major EU member states realise that they must respond to the demands of their electorates and reconsider the basic principle of ever-closer union.

    When I say that all of these statements are false, I do not mean to detract from the thunderous importance of recent electoral events. I am not one of those delusional commentators who believe (or claim to believe) that nothing much of any significance has happened and that all this excitement is just overblown media froth. On the contrary, my reason for insisting that none of the things that are assumed to be self-evidently true about the post-elections world will actually prove correct, is that the results were too important – so devastating, so cataclysmically mind-altering that they cannot be assimilated. There is no way that the European Union – which is to say, those who run it, think entirely within its conceptual parameters, have their political and personal futures invested in it and can conceive of no reality outside of it – can come to terms with the consequences of these elections.

    The facts do not compute. They are incomprehensible. Therefore they must be dismissed as some irrational, contemptible spasm to which the masses are occasionally susceptible and which the enlightened institutions of the EU were specifically designed to over-rule.

    Here in Britain, in our own little bastion of denial, party leaders are jamming up behind one another to assure voters that they “get it”: they hear you, they understand your concerns, they are going to address your anxieties, blah-blah. So what does all this lesson-learning and self-abnegation amount to? David Cameron announces firmly that he knows the EU is seen as “too big, too bossy and too interfering”, which makes the whole thing sound like a children’s playground squabble. Is it just me or does the word “bossy” sound just a little bit patronising and trivial – especially given that what we are talking about here is the withdrawal of our right as a democratic polity to have power over own criminal justice system and our national borders?

    Ed Miliband insists that he now recognises that people’s concerns about immigration must be taken seriously. I’ll bet he does – especially as so many of the voters with the greatest concerns are likely to have been ex-Labour supporters. But what exactly does this commitment to taking people’s concerns seriously amount to? A change of Labour policy on immigration? An explicit admission that the decision by the last Labour government to permit immediate unlimited migration from the new East European accession countries – when most other member states did not – was a mistake? Not that I’ve heard. Until it translates into some meaningful new policy, this is just pious codswallop. Saying “we hear you” in a soothing voice means nothing. It just buys a bit of time – which is the real object of the game.
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    The Conservatives can play at this with the most confidence. So far as they are concerned, they emerged from the bloodbath with barely a scratch. All they need do is murmur a few attentive platitudes, re-affirm their promise of a renegotiation with a supposedly humbled EU, wait for the public hysteria to fade in the face of good economic news, and then face an utterly demoralised Labour party led by (ha, ha, ha) Mr Miliband.

    What’s to worry? If they beat Ukip in the Newark by-election – even if their 16,000 majority is drastically cut – they will privately (and possibly even publicly if they are particularly foolish) declare the present emergency officially over. Their most urgent worry, bizarrely, is that the Lib Dems are now dead in the water, which leaves a lot of disenfranchised voters who could become a dangerously unknown quantity at the general election. (We could yet be faced with the nightmare possibility of a tiny rump of Lib Dem MPs still holding the balance in a hung parliament, if the Conservatives cannot manage a working majority.)

    Yes indeed, the Tories know how to manage this “crisis”. Sit it out. Hunker down and let it blow over. I promise you that, within weeks, they will be doing and saying exactly what they had been doing and saying before The Earthquake. As will Labour, for a slightly different reason: because it simply does not have the philosophical resources to cope with this shift in reality.

    So everybody in mainstream British politics – even Nick Clegg, the dead man walking – will lie low, stay calm, and hope that when summer comes, this will all be forgotten. Because the awful truth is that nobody in politics actually knows how to respond to a spontaneous demonstration of public anger any more. They have become so practised at manipulating, image-projecting and rebranding, that a full-frontal confrontation with raw democratic outrage leaves them stupefied.

    But what about the EU itself? Hasn’t it been shaken in its sublime self-regard? Won’t the mass revolts of electorates across its member states force it to reassess its own size, role, power, fundamental precepts, etc, etc, thus making Mr Cameron’s mission to reform it more practicable?

    Wrong again. EU institutions are transcendentally oblivious to the democratic will: they were, after all, created precisely to ensure that the serious business of government could never again be taken over by volatile popular movements of dubious provenance. One of the EU Commission’s first acts after the elections was to demand a further £1.76 billion in contributions from member states, in order to subsidise those whose problems are almost entirely attributable to EU economic policy.

    The European parliament, supposedly the elected voice of the governed, is so committed to the momentum of the federalist project that even in the wake of those spectacularly anti-EU election results it nominated Jean-Claude Juncker, an arch-federalist, as president of the Commission. Has anybody learnt anything? Presumably if there was to be an honest statement of basic principle engraved over the doors of the Brussels headquarters it would say: “The people are dangerous. Don’t listen to them.”

    It has become received wisdom that the reason for that massive electoral rebellion against the EU was that the people were throwing a harmless tantrum: they were just letting off steam because they knew that their votes in this election did not matter. And what do people do next when they realise that their votes don’t matter?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...odswallop.html

    It's the last sentence that worries me. If the EU keep ignoring this they are storing up an awful lot of trouble.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  4. #34
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    You know, in the past, I used to be a bit sympathetic to Europe. I felt (and still do feel) that some in this country would, if they could have their way, bring back workhouses, reinstate the death penalty and lock up everybody for everything like they do in America. I saw liberal-lefty Europe as a counter-balance to that.

    But now some of the stuff coming out of Europe is really totalitarian. That European Arrest Warrant really freaks me out, another one of those so-called 'anti-terrorism' measures. We've already got the horror stories coming through. If Britain is a sovereign nation then I don't expect to be carted off at the demands of some foreign court, especially with some of the freak shows that pass for legal systems in Europe (remember the Amanda Knox trial, for example?).
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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  5. #35
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Amanda Know turned out to be guilty in the end, the freak show part must refer to her being helped to escape to a country that only cares about jailing murderers when they are blacks sentenced by a white jury and won't send her back for that reason even though it likes to jail tons of its own people and foreigners itself for all kinds of minor crimes as you say.

    As for your horror story:
    When a French court first issued my constituent with a court summons, he got straight on to HM Revenue and Customs. Not to worry, HMRC apparently told him. We’ll advise the French authorities accordingly. Except HMRC did no such thing. Next Mr Essex heard he had been tried by the French court in his absence.
    Isn't that clearly a fault of this glorious English institution that could never be wrong because it's English and has Her Majesty in its name?
    And what's so bad about French courts anyway?


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  6. #36
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Isn't that clearly a fault of this glorious English institution that could never be wrong because it's English and has Her Majesty in its name?
    Very funny.

    Seriously though the EAW is terrible. Remember this?

    Andrew Symeou was extradited to Greece in July 2009 to face charges in connection with the death of a young man at a nightclub on a Greek island. Andrew was extradited despite evidence that the charges were based on statements extracted by Greek police through the violent intimidation of witnesses, who later retracted their statements
    http://www.fairtrials.org/cases/andrew-symeou/

    I know when my dad lived in Greece the locals warned us to stay well away from the police. Even more corrupt than their fellow countrymen and that's saying summat.

    And what's so bad about French courts anyway?
    If you need to ask....

    This is one of the myriad reasons why the UK (and Ireland) are unsuited to be members of the EU of A. In the common law system you are innocent until found guilty in a court of law. In the code civil, it's the other way around. We actually think this is intrinsically evil.

    Amanda Know (sic) turned out to be guilty in the end
    Aye keep trying her until you find her guilty. A bit like those EU referendums, keep voting until you get the right result. Again we regard this as intrinsically evil.

    I notice you didn't address this...

    And what do people do next when they realise that their votes don’t matter?
    It never works out well when our 'rulers' ignore the wishes of the people. In the UK we'll probably have petitions and tea and cucumber sandwiches at No 10. In other parts of Europe......well I know for a fact that most of the Greeks on Corfu have guns. One guy I met told me he'd taken his off a dead Italian,who's throat he'd just cut.

    He looked a little like my grandad. I nicer bloke you'd be hard pressed to meet.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  7. #37
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Very funny.

    Seriously though the EAW is terrible. Remember this?

    http://www.fairtrials.org/cases/andrew-symeou/

    I know when my dad lived in Greece the locals warned us to stay well away from the police. Even more corrupt than their fellow countrymen and that's saying summat.
    No, but that's a good argument for more political integration to root out the corruption. It always amazes me that the EU or UN or so blame Germany for not having proper laws against corruption as apparently all other countries have, yet our corruption is apparently a lot lower than the corruption in all these other countries. I suppose having a law is not the same as following it.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    If you need to ask....

    This is one of the myriad reasons why the UK (and Ireland) are unsuited to be members of the EU of A. In the common law system you are innocent until found guilty in a court of law. In the code civil, it's the other way around. We actually think this is intrinsically evil.
    Oh, but it's so wonderful that I asked and even more wonderful that and how you answered. I don't even know where to start poking all the fun. Do I start with the common law exceptionalism or that I heard the same thing being said about the USA? Well, you might know it's not true about the USA and let me tell you, it's not true about France either. Now I did not know that but since it surprised me when you said it and you seem so sure of what you say (which you really shouldn't be), I looked it up: http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/0...us-versus.html
    Note that I pointed out that they live in the US. That's important, because the outcome would have been different here in France. Under French law:
    Toute personne suspectée ou poursuivie est présumée innocente tant que sa culpabilité n'a pas été établie. Les atteintes à sa présomption d'innocence sont prévenues, réparées et réprimées dans les conditions prévues par la loi.
    That translates as:
    Any suspected or accused person is presumed innocent until he is found guilty. Damage to the presumption of innocence is prevented, remedied and punished as provided by law.
    "Damage to the presumption of innocence"? It means, amongst other things, French police departments don't do perp walks (a disgusting US police practice), your mugshot is not published and even in serious crimes, the French don't name suspects until a conviction, barring issues where the names have been leaked. In court cases, the police lead the accused to the courtroom via discreet entrances to prevent photographs and damage to the presumption of innocence. If you violate this presumption of innocence, it will quickly be your turn to stand in front of a judge, but they'll protect your privacy too.
    http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=82288
    And the Déclaration clearly states, in its ninth article that (quoting Wikipedia) :

    "As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law."

    In fact, France goes farther than the United States in protectiong the presumption of innocence. While in America, that principle is only applicable in courts, in France, since june 15th 2000, that presumption extends beyond the court. One exemple: many people were outraged here because Dominique Strauss-Kahn was the victim of a "perp walk". That's because, in his own country, he would not have been subjected to that practice. People who are arrested in a criminal case have their faces masked, either by clothes, or by having their faces blurred on TV or in pics. Their names are not given until trial day.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presump...nce#Common_law
    The maxim or its equivalent has been adopted by many civil law systems, including Brazil,[7] France,[8] Italy,[9][10] Philippines,[11] Poland,[12] Romania[13] and Spain.[14]
    So, there you have the advantages of your common law over the filthy barbaric French.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Aye keep trying her until you find her guilty. A bit like those EU referendums, keep voting until you get the right result. Again we regard this as intrinsically evil.
    It was about evidence which was clearly there but not allowed to be used in the case where she was regarded innocent. Two courts found the evidence perfectly clear and it made her look incredibly guilty. If you don't like repeated trials, they could have stuck with the first verdict instead of "keep trying her until she is found innocent", that's not an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I notice you didn't address this...
    You were proudly parading around about having voted UKIP, so how does it feel then? I already said I didn't vote. Sorry, but the joke's on you...
    Cameron singlehandedly preventing Juncker by threatening to leave also sounds very democratic and like a normal process. IMO they should have chosen Juncker and let Cameron and the UK leave. But for evil dictators our leaders lack the spine to do that apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    It never works out well when our 'rulers' ignore the wishes of the people. In the UK we'll probably have petitions and tea and cucumber sandwiches at No 10. In other parts of Europe......well I know for a fact that most of the Greeks on Corfu have guns. One guy I met told me he'd taken his off a dead Italian,who's throat he'd just cut.

    He looked a little like my grandad. I nicer bloke you'd be hard pressed to meet.
    I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say with this? Are you talking about separatist terrorist insurgencies like in Ukraine?


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  8. #38
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Interesting times.

    ECR down from ~55 to 46
    ALDE down from ~75 to 55#

    However, it looks likely that ALDE will lose two or three seats to the EPP, whereas the ECR is likely to gain as many as ten or twelve seats over the course of the next few months.

    Which would make the ECR the third biggest party in the parliament!

    A long way away from the prophecies or doom and fractured collapse all those years ago. ;)

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...?118607-Europe
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  9. #39
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    i'm delighted to announce that the right-wing eurosceptic group the ECR is now the third biggest group in the EU parliament, toppling the previous kingmaker ALDE back into fourth:

    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-...est-parliament

    [pops champagne]

    not bad for a rag tag group of reprobates that were destined to explode mere months after their formation. ;)
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  10. #40
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EU election...

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-L...-to-block-UKIP

    ....and they have the gall to call UKIP supporters racist!
    Not to mention the same underlying tactic of "business as usual" for the miscreants in Parliament.
    Utter contempt for the electorate from utter bastards.
    Actually, this is what i like about the tories; it is all about the manipulation of power.

    It is why they have have been winning elections decade after decade for nigh on a quarter of a millennia!
    They have no core ideology around which to become fossilised when it ceases to provide answers to the great questions of the age. You gotta admire the adaptability of the buggers, no one else has their staying power:

    The liberals rolled in in 1680 as the Whigs and gave up the ghost 250 years later.
    Labour arrived in 1865 as the IWA and are already looking pretty shaky as an ongoing force just 150 years later.

    labour 1915 = less than 7 million trade union members (population 40m)
    labour 1965 = more than 14 million trade union members (population 50m)
    labour 2015 = less than 7 million trade union members (population 60m)

    Is there any sign of a Labour 2.0, and if not, who comes next?
    We retain an adversarial political culture and society (unlike our consensual continental neighbours), so there will be a next. have no doubt.

    I was/am kind of hoping that it will be the Lib(-Dems)erals again, but it does rather depend on whether they can hold their p00p together until 2020. Labour is going to be really struggling to find a purpose then, and they may be dethroned as the natural home of the left in 2025 if the liberals make a good fist of it in the one previous.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-22-2014 at 20:55.
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