ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Rhyfelwyr]

Those statues are idolatry and represent the worship of false gods, they are some kind of abomination for hardline christians as well I would think. Though most christians wouldn't really care, I just say I can see where they're coming from on this.

As the resident Christian fundie, I can say that we have no problem with such statues. We would disagree with worshipping them obviously, but our answer would not be to go on an iconoclastic rampage and destroy thousands of years or heritage.

[Hax]

our answer would not be to go on an iconoclastic rampage and destroy thousands of years or heritage.

Hahaha, like, of course Christians wouldn't do that.

EDIT: Also the Saudis have been destroying early Islamic heritage sites since the 19th century, so it's not really all that new. Sadly.

[Husar]

As the resident Christian fundie, I can say that we have no problem with such statues. We would disagree with worshipping them obviously, but our answer would not be to go on an iconoclastic rampage and destroy thousands of years or heritage.

Maybe you're not fundie enough.
All idolatry and occult like these statues is part of the devil's devious plan to distract people from god, just like TV and the internet (except the bible channel). Maybe most fundies wouldn't go and smash them but that's because they're not in their own country and they're not in the government. ISIS have them in "their country" and ISIS are the de-facto government, so they set out to destroy the occult idols that distract from the one true faith. The bible has this advice about cutting off your hand if it prevents you from serving god, why would a pagan statue/false god/demonic idol be saved?

[Fragony]

Hahaha, like, of course Christians wouldn't do that.

EDIT: Also the Saudis have been destroying early Islamic heritage sites since the 19th century, so it's not really all that new. Sadly.

Surily enough, the 'beeldenstorm' happened. There is a difference though, the catholic church was a political power. It's easy to shoot holes in that reasoning when only taking the fact that stuff was destroyed, but you wouldn't be considering why that happened.

[Husar]

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/th...hing-the-idols

The Bible itself is full of condemnations of idols and idolatry. Exodus 20:3-4 commands the Israelites to forgo any idols, and the Golden Calf hardly comes in for praise. In Exodus 32:20, Moses smashes the Golden Calf, grinds it to dust, mixes it with water, and forces the Israelites to drink their false god. The Bible praises those who smash the idols, like Hezekiah in 2 Kings 18:3-4, where he “did right in the sight of the Lord” by smashing a serpent idol. God himself even destroys the idol of Dagon in 1 Samuel 5:1-5.

In the fourth part of the sixth-century Book of the Cave of Treasures, a Christian text, the author asserts that Satan lives in idols and pretends to be pagan gods. God, the author said, destroyed these idols:

The fact is, since the rise of monotheism nearly everyone smashes idols. (Polytheists were a mixed lot, just as likely to capture an idol and take it home as to destroy it.) The Byzantine iconoclasts and Protestant reformers both attacked Christian imagery, destroying statues and icons for violating God’s commandment. Charlemagne legislated the destruction of Germanic pagan sanctuaries. The Spanish obliterated the idols of the Mexicans and Peruvians during the Conquest of the New World. Francisco Burgoa tells in his Geographica descripcion de la America setentrional, Chapter 28, how a missionary destroyed a Mixtec idol made of nearly priceless translucent green stone by following the example of Moses, grinding it to dust, mixing it with water, pouring it onto the earth, and stomping on it to show that the Mixtec gods were powerless. Two centuries after that, the Revolutionary French smashed the stained glass images of Jesus and the saints to demonstrate the triumph of reason over religion. Two centuries later, the peoples of Eastern Europe tore down the statues of Lenin and Stalin and broke them into pieces to symbolize the destruction of Communist ideology. Early in this century, the Taliban infamously destroyed medieval statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan.

The last paragraph says that this reason is illogical since these old statues hardly qualify as idols anymore now that noone believes in their religious symbolism anymore, but one also has to take into account that one just has to be fundie enough to think that they may still be "possessed" or something and therefore deserving of destruction. The idea that human belief alone gives an idol power is an atheist idea that does not fly for religious people who believe in an invisible world beyond the one we live in.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hahaha, like, of course Christians wouldn't do that.

EDIT: Also the Saudis have been destroying early Islamic heritage sites since the 19th century, so it's not really all that new. Sadly.

My understanding is that Christian iconoclasm tends to involve icons that are actually being used in worship. There may be exceptions but that would seem to be the pattern in the Beeldenstorm. There were similar instances in Scotland and England where Protestants whitewashed over artwork in Christian churches - I would support such a measure if the church was still to be used as a place of worship (provided the congregation wanted to, of course).

I'm maybe setting myself up to be proved wrong, but I don't think you will find Christians (maybe a handful of individual loons aside) arguing for the destruction of icons at historic sites, museums etc.

[Fragony]

My understanding is that Christian iconoclasm tends to involve icons that are actually being used in worship. There may be exceptions but that would seem to be the pattern in the Beeldenstorm. There were similar instances in Scotland and England where Protestants whitewashed over artwork in Christian churches - I would support such a measure if the church was still to be used as a place of worship (provided the congregation wanted to, of course).

I'm maybe setting myself up to be proved wrong, but I don't think you will find Christians (maybe a handful of individual loons aside) arguing for the destruction of icons at historic sites, museums etc.

Iconalism comes from the good old Roman days. The period Hax refers to is more than a thousand years later, and it was politics rather than faith.

edit: not a thousand years we will have to wait for a while

[Hax]

And it's called iconoclasm. It's like literally ​in the post you quoted.

EDIT: I was going to point out the historical destruction of Graeco-Roman sites, but whatever. It's happening in South Korea right now.

[Crandar]

Don't know about Beeldenstorm, but the Byzantine version of iconoclasm concerned only the depiction of religious figures, like the Holy Triad and the various saints or martyrs.
It originated from the provinces of Asia Minor, which were greatly influenced by their muslim neighbors, while the opposition was stronger in Greece and Italy.

However, the reason behind it was that the public and the monks had adopted a hysterical attitude towards images.
The monks have become financially powerful, creating and selling numerous images to the christian Romans and encouraged them to use them for every problem they faced.
It has been reported that the most popular medicine was a mix between water and wood or colour from a wooden image...

[Fragony]

And it's called iconoclasm. It's like literally ​in the post you quoted.

EDIT: I was going to point out the historical destruction of Graeco-Roman sites, but whatever. It's happening in South Korea right now.

I didn't do gymnasium so I can make language mistakes in Latin, it was never tought to me so bear with me. Why should it have been anyway because I don't understand some things anyway.

The day I do understand these IS manuacs you are free to shoot me because I wouldn't want to be alive anyway.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hax,

I'm not trying to turn this into a Christianity v Islam point-scoring exercise. I don't think I should have to point out that when I give my opinion on what the Christian position is on an issue, I am not speaking for all of Christendom. I am also aware that the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims (today and throughout history) oppose the cultural destruction of Islamic State - otherwise, these artefacts would not be around for IS to destroy today, considering the area has been Muslim almost since Islam existed (afaik).

My point was simply, that as a Christian fundamentalist, I do not believe it is necessary or right to destroy artefacts from ancient cultures.

[Husar]

My point was simply, that as a Christian fundamentalist, I do not believe it is necessary or right to destroy artefacts from ancient cultures.

Would you display them in a cupboard in your living room or advocate sending school children to museums to look at them and learn about them?
Please note that this is just a question, I'm just curious.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Would you display them in a cupboard in your living room or advocate sending school children to museums to look at them and learn about them?
Please note that this is just a question, I'm just curious.

Yes I would.

[Pannonian]

Compare with the British WWI graves being meticulously maintained under Saddam. 2003 looks more stupid the more one thinks about the aftermath.

[Fragony]

But an entire civilization is being destroyed, no trace is being left, if you destroy ancient artifacts what to say. This is different.

[Kagemusha]

But an entire civilization is being destroyed, no trace is being left, if you destroy ancient artifacts what to say. This is different.

There are Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian ruins outside the sphere of influence IS. Nimrod is not only ancient city of that area. It is just a showing the hypocrisy of IS that they are demolishing the larger statues and constructions at the site, which they cant move, while they have little problems selling everything they can move to black market. I guess money comes first even for these religious lunatics.

[Hax]

Hax,

I'm not trying to turn this into a Christianity v Islam point-scoring exercise. I don't think I should have to point out that when I give my opinion on what the Christian position is on an issue, I am not speaking for all of Christendom. I am also aware that the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims (today and throughout history) oppose the cultural destruction of Islamic State - otherwise, these artefacts would not be around for IS to destroy today, considering the area has been Muslim almost since Islam existed (afaik).

My point was simply, that as a Christian fundamentalist, I do not believe it is necessary or right to destroy artefacts from ancient cultures.

But those are the best arguments!

Nah man, I hear you, and personally, I think you're actually probably right. I also really appreciate your contributions to any discussion.

It is just a showing the hypocrisy of IS that they are demolishing the larger statues and constructions at the site, which they cant move, while they have little problems selling everything they can move to black market.

Yes, you'd almost start to think that they're actually humans. :D

[Brenus]

Well, destroying artifacts increase the price of the ones you are selling...
They know they will collapse, and make as much money they can.
All will be forgiven (general pardon) in the name of keeping unity, the surviving slaves, if lucky, will be shipped back home, and the criminals will be able to enjoys the women in bikini at Cannes' festival...

[Papewaio]

Since they are burning alive military prisoners and beheading most others... is ISIS once beaten going to have all its key members go through a Nuremburg version of trials?

Since they are not taking prisoners and have committed to total war both in their war zone and overseas... does the rest of the world have to take prisoners or is this now not considered a war crime due to the nature of the conflict that ISIS have escalated it too?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Since they are burning alive military prisoners and beheading most others... is ISIS once beaten going to have all its key members go through a Nuremburg version of trials?

Since they are not taking prisoners and have committed to total war both in their war zone and overseas... does the rest of the world have to take prisoners or is this now not considered a war crime due to the nature of the conflict that ISIS have escalated it too?

The majority of nations around the world condemned the US use of "extraordinary interrogation" (torture) against Taliban and Al Queada members despite their complicity in the terror strikes of 2001, their abduction and murder of journalists, and their "who cares about collateral damage" efforts in Iraq.

Consistency would suggest that prisoners must be taken and where appropriate remanded to custody for trial.

[Fragony]

And it's called iconoclasm. It's like literally ​in the post you quoted.

EDIT: I was going to point out the historical destruction of Graeco-Roman sites, but whatever. It's happening in South Korea right now.

So what, I got the word wrong. I am not being payed for this.

[Kagemusha]

Things are getting rather hard for Is forces at Tikrit. Apparently the Shia militant/Iraq army/ Iranian force is pushing towards city center from all directions.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31849794

[Husar]

I am not being payed for this.

Correction: I am not getting paid for this.

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/payed.html

Are you always a bad friend unless someone pays for your friendship?

[Brenus]

So, IS used chemical weapons.
Hmm, I though only Assad had the technical capacity to use them. Well, it was what I was told...

[Rhyfelwyr]

So, IS used chemical weapons.
Hmm, I though only Assad had the technical capacity to use them. Well, it was what I was told...

That probably changed when Saddam's old generals started being recruited into IS.

[Crandar]

That probably changed when Saddam's old generals started being recruited into IS.

Al-Douri, the Scottish leader of the Iraqi Baathists, cancelled his alliance with ISIS half a year ago, under the pretext of the Crhistians in Mosul being mistreated by the jihadists, so officially the baathists are in war with the Caliphate.
On the other hand, there's a possibility that not all the Saddam's supporters followed Al-Douri's example.

[Kagemusha]

Iraq declares victory at Tikrit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32153836

Good news and also to good to see that at the end phase of the operation US joined in and supported from air the land forces comprised of mostly Iran backed Shia militants. Apparently there are still pockets of Isis fighters in the city, but things look rather good as it is.

[Fragony]

Let's keep these pockets intact as long as jihadi's want to go there, perfect killing room. Extra hilarity bonus if they reincartanate as a teacher of toddlers, 'hey I told you you would get 72 virgins, and you did'. In'Shallah

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Let's keep these pockets intact as long as jihadi's want to go there, perfect killing room. Extra hilarity bonus if they reincartanate as a teacher of toddlers, 'hey I told you you would get 72 virgins, and you did'. In'Shallah

Those "perfect" killing zones you describe still contain any number of folks who would rather just go back to a mostly normal life. Those zones also contain a -- steadily decreasing -- number of Christians and "unacceptable" Arab groups (Druze, Yazidi, etc.). Perhaps they would prefer a change of ownership?

Reincarnation comment was cute, but reincarnation is not a doctrine of Islam. As far as I know, only Frank Herbert suggested Islam/Buddhist hybrid.

[Fragony]

Those "perfect" killing zones you describe still contain any number of folks who would rather just go back to a mostly normal life. Those zones also contain a -- steadily decreasing -- number of Christians and "unacceptable" Arab groups (Druze, Yazidi, etc.). Perhaps they would prefer a change of ownership?

You are absolutily right, it's inherently immoral to make a killing-zone out of IS. But do you have any better ideas. As long as it exists we could as well make tbe best out of it, and I am probably not the first one who thought of that. I am just glad that nothing was ever done on my account because it's probably going to get even uglier. Arab-spring, lol@those who thought that was happening, wash your own hands if you ever believed in it.

I really do care, but I am not stupid either