If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public school

[ICantSpellDawg]

They probably wouldn't, because I would get them vaccinated. I have only ever turned down yellow fever vaccination.

This gets me personally. I go in for a medical procedure every year as I am plagued with many odd diseases (in spite of having received every suggested vaccination anyway). Every year the Dr and his medical students try to convince me to allow them to take non-therapeutic biopsies for "the greater good". I advise that they are free to take all biopsies that are taken for therapeutic or diagnostic purposes which benefit me, the patient, and use it for their study. This is not good enough for them so they don't do that. I have enough diseases that if I consented to every study I would be out of flesh. As they are New Yorkers, it's only a matter of time before my body is to them merely a specimen for the use of the greater good. I'm surprised that they don't already require organ donation. I'm sure that you are for those things as well - you know because of the greater good.

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

[Beskar]

I'm surprised that they don't already require organ donation. I'm sure that you are for those things as well - you know because of the greater good.

On death, yes. It is in my will and I have it noted in my medical records.

When you die, you won't be needing them anymore, and if you expect in life to receive an organ transplant, it would be very hypocritical not to return the same courtesy.

[ICantSpellDawg]

On death, yes. It is in my will and I have it noted in my medical records.

When you die, you won't be needing them anymore, and if you expect in life to receive an organ transplant, it would be very hypocritical not to return the same courtesy.

Yep, totally sensible and good faith to donate organs at end of life. My suggestion is, yet again, not that it is a bad thing but that the compulsion is wrongheaded. And that's even concerning dead people and their families!

[HoreTore]

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

Yes, let's kill off a few million innocents before we figure out that our original idea was the best solution after all.

What a splendid idea!!

[Beskar]

Yep, totally sensible and good faith to donate organs at end of life. My suggestion is, yet again, not that it is a bad thing but that the compulsion is wrongheaded. And that's even concerning dead people and their families!

I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though. There is a shortage of organs and on many occasions, the wishes of the departed are not known and grieving family can be... very awkward situation. Maybe stretch the same for vaccination too if it not in place as the current situation.

Whilst it is not direct-force that compulsory implies, those who are rather ignorant have the choice made for them for the best interest of the children and all those involved with the decision making.

[HoreTore]

I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though. There is a shortage of organs and on many occasions, the wishes of the departed are not known and grieving family can be... very awkward situation.

Vastly preferable to the current situation.

[Beskar]

Vastly preferable to the current situation.

Naturally, you would assume people have the best interests at heart, so any regulation is not required at all based on this assumption.

Unfortunately, reality shows that this is not the case.

Whilst I can sympathise with Dawg's position that in an ideal world, such things wouldn't be needed, the logistics and reality argue strongly in favour of having to implement these policies because it isn't an ideal world.

[HoreTore]

Naturally, you would assume people have the best interests at heart, so any regulation is not required at all based on this assumption.

Unfortunately, reality shows that this is not the case.

Well, the bureaucracy probably stops a few; I know it's stopped me. I have no clue where to sign up or what to do, to be honest. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one, though it probably doesn't help that I avoid the doctors office like a plague...

My family knows to chop me up and burn what remains, however.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though.

I might not disagree with this. In fact, if you really wanted to you might even do the same thing with vaccinations.

This would not be compulsion - merely direction, with override from families and individuals. Now you're cooking with gas.

[Kadagar_AV]

People not taking vaccine not only risk themselves, but also put others at risk.

I don't believe it a human right to risk the life of ones kids, nor do I believe it's right to risk others.

I've got a tetanus shot yesterday, stupid parkour...

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

[HoreTore]

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

I have made a grand total of zero statements in this thread restricting the free action of individuals.

I have only restricted the individuals ability to force other individuals to adhere to their beliefs.

In other words, I care not for a second if some adult decides not to get vaccinated. I hope they die sooner, rather than later. But someone taking away a child's right to grow up without a zillion life-threatening diseases? No way.



It seems like your focus on governmental tyranny has made you blind to the tyranny coming from elsewhere.



John Stuart Mill argued in On Liberty for the death penalty for parents who did not choose correctly for their children.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I have made a grand total of zero statements in this thread restricting the free action of individuals.

I have only restricted the individuals ability to force other individuals to adhere to their beliefs.

In other words, I care not for a second if some adult decides not to get vaccinated. I hope they die sooner, rather than later. But someone taking away a child's right to grow up without a zillion life-threatening diseases? No way.



It seems like your focus on governmental tyranny has made you blind to the tyranny coming from elsewhere.

Surely, adults are at risk of disease. Isn't their failure to inoculate a direct threat to you as well?

Also, you are clearly attempting to force things into peoples bodies irrespective of what they or their guardians say. Do you mean to tell me that if a child is against it then it won't be forced?
If in your brain you have glossed over that part, I would forgive you for it, but don't miss the crux of your own argument.

This website has a reasonable approach, while yours is an unreasonable and heavy handed one, as always.

[HoreTore]

Surely, adults are at risk of disease as well. Isn't their failure to inoculate a direct threat to you?

Sure, and they should get vaccinated as well.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Compulsory should or sensibly should?

[HoreTore]

Compulsory should or sensibly should?

I don't advocate compulsory vaccination of adults. Only their children.

(Excluding international travel, of course)

[ICantSpellDawg]

Countries can require vaccinations as requisite for entry. That's up to them.
No way on the kid compulsion. You are way off on that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Cannot make it compulsory, it is the parent's decision. CAN make it a requirement for attending government schools unless a majority of the polity in question refuses to sanction such a regulation. Should do so, to encourage any wafflers.

You don't want vaccinations for your children? Find a private school that will accept them or teach them at home.


I agree that not providing vaccinations for your children does not constitute negligence in the sense that leaving them to bake in the backseat of your car or failing to feed them does. However, I believe that NOT taking the vaccination opportunities available is a poor parenting choice and does a disservice to your kidlings.

Infant mortality in the pre-vaccine/pre-Semmelweis era was ghastly.

Both my children have received the full series, including the optional varivax.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Cannot make it compulsory, it is the parent's decision.

Why not? We do so routinely for non-life threatening situations, nobody starts wringing hands about the freedom to make a dishonest choice which the child will be the victim of. Child labour is banned. Minimum education is mandatory. Children may be taken away and placed into care if abuse is discovered.

We do that precisely to limit the damage that may be wrought by irresponsible, incompetent or uncaring parents.

We go on to do much the same to competent adults.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I will most likely have my children vaccinated with the full series as well. I also have no intention of having them go to public school, which will be difficult.

[Kadagar_AV]

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

It is my impression that some USAnians take free will so far that it includes "Free will to be absolutely ******* uneducated and somewhat retarded"...

You should never be allowed to risk your children, nor others.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is my impression that some USAnians take free will so far that it includes "Free will to be absolutely ******* uneducated and somewhat retarded"...

I most certainly believe that this is the case.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/27/ki...pants-forced-t

[Kadagar_AV]

I most certainly believe that this is the case.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/27/ki...pants-forced-t

I'm honestly lost for words... That's just wrong on so many levels...

[HoreTore]

Countries can require vaccinations as requisite for entry. That's up to them.
No way on the kid compulsion. You are way off on that.

So you do not consider the child an individual? 'Individuals choice' covers more individuals than just your own person?

Where is the logic in that?

I can waive the mandatory organ donation because, even though I consider them ridiculous, the arguments of sacred bodies and such religious stuff is of some merit. The arguments against vaccination? Complete bollox and not worthy of a second of consideration.

It is not your right to make retarded decisions on behalf of your children. Sorry.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Having children is a pretty retarded decision made on behalf of your kids for most people.
I don't hold a high bar for other parents. As long as they are feeding them and not abusing them beyond a certain minimal extent, fair play.

What are you going to do, take a kid away from a half-way decent parent who refuses the vaccine and can't afford private school, and put them into a foster home? That'll sure fix the problem.


You guys have made the most compelling argument why I might not want to get kids vaccinated, which I didn't think was possible because it is pretty open and shut.
Drug laws make me want drugs so bad, Gun laws make me want guns so bad. I freaking despise laws and coercion. I have instinctively always told people to take a flying leap when they express any bullshit authority over me. You guys are idiots. Maybe some people respect authority, but I doubt that those are the people you are trying to force into doing things.

I still likely will, not because of what you think or the law thinks, but because of what I think - and smart people who are capable of believing in something and evangelizing it without forcing it on others.

[Ironside]

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

There are epidemics showing up in the US among the unvaccinated population today. Still small numbers, but increasing. So it's an actual problem nowadays.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I didn't get the whooping cough vaccine as a child, and sure enough I got whooping cough. Same is true for my youngest brother.

Didn't get the meningitis vaccine either but hopefully I will be spared from meningitis.

I don't honestly know about how legitimate the concerns about any risks are, but I'm pretty paranoid when it comes to taking medication myself and I don't think this is something that should be forced upon children and their parents.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I didn't get the whooping cough vaccine as a child, and sure enough I got whooping cough. Same is true for my youngest brother.

Didn't get the meningitis vaccine either but hopefully I will be spared from meningitis.

I don't honestly know about how legitimate the concerns about any risks are, but I'm pretty paranoid when it comes to taking medication myself and I don't think this is something that should be forced upon children and their parents.

If you didn't just spend 3 days dismissing evolution as science, this post would have been great.
These people are effectively saying that parents who would allow you to run a greater risk of whooping cough than take the vaccine are bad parents and should have their kids taken away if they feel strongly enough about it.

Let's face it, if they don't let it happen and they don't have the money for homeschooling or private school (like most people), their kid is not allowed to go to school. If their kid doesn't go to school, CPS takes them and the parents can be punished legally. This is the creepy and serious side of the things that people push for frivolously when they, time and time again call for compulsion. Take a concern that is popular right now in the media, get afraid, demand action by force to overcome opposition that they don't understand or accept. It is like a broken record of dumb and abusive policy. Many diseases have been wiped nearly off of the face of the earth by better nutrition, better sanitation, and vaccination. This has happened not through compulsion, but through public campaigns to inform people of the risk of disease vs the risk of vaccination. For most of the common vaccinations and most people, the risk to not having them is overwhelmingly greater than the risk of doing so - if you cant sell that idea, maybe the person that you are angry at isn't the moron in the room.

Ryf, will you get your kid the whooping flight vaccine knowing that they will likely contract the illness if you don't?

[HoreTore]

What are you going to do, take a kid away from a half-way decent parent who refuses the vaccine and can't afford private school, and put them into a foster home? That'll sure fix the problem.

As I have said already: do what we do to the cooky christian sect who refuses blood transfusion. Give temporary custody to the state, inject vaccines, give kids back. Kid vaccinated, no harm done.

[ICantSpellDawg]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...d9e_story.html

Articles like this would probably would compel people to get certain vaccinations. I would recommend publishing it in NY Times and translating it Into to Spanish and integrating it into the dumbest telenovela with the grossest sausage-in-spandex actresses you can find. The rates will boost without compulsion.